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  #241  
Old 08-08-2012, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by ZombieTactics View Post
But you haven't explained why that experience means anything apart from bragging rights or basking in someone else's "glow of awesomeness".

I train a lot, with a lot of different people. If I am instructed properly in a technique, and then witness (video) 2 or 3 other "Tier1" guys using that same technique in the same way ... do I need to meet them personally to make that observation? That's smacks oddly of hero worship.
Firearms training is not just about watching the techniques of these instructors via video. Let them explain the reasons for a technique/drill, demo it, allow you to perform that technique/drill and give you proper feedback and diagnosis. You're missing the last part unless HAL 9000 is giving you interactive feedback.

Once you have gone through these cycles you can better judge the "awesomeness" of the instructors but more importantly whether the techniques/drills best suit your personal needs.
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  #242  
Old 08-08-2012, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by ramzar View Post
Firearms training is not just about watching the techniques of these instructors via video.
I don't believe I implied otherwise. I'll be training this weekend with experienced law enforcement from one of the most dangerous cities in the U.S. ... guess that's not Tier 1 enough though ... even though it's much closer to my personal AR/AO.

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Originally Posted by ramzar View Post
Let them explain the reasons for a technique/drill, demo it, allow you to perform that technique/drill and give you proper feedback and diagnosis. You're missing the last part unless HAL 9000 is giving you interactive feedback. ...
Let me try to understand this clearly, and you tell me where I have misunderstood you.
  • The experience of getting instruction from Tier 1 instructors is really important.
  • According to the only objective definition given, "Tier1" really just an accounting designation. According to your earlier definition, it's just a term of endearment.
  • So, it's really important to to have the experience of being instructed personally, by people you like who got their paychecks funded from the right accounting bucket.
  • Being instructed (even correctly or excellently), with demos and feedback by very experienced people who you don't like as much or didn't get their checks from the right money bucket is not worth as much, and not to be taken as seriously.

If that seems snarky, it's really not meant to be. It just seems to be the summation of your logic. It doesn't appear that you are really discussing the quality of instruction or relevance of any technique, but rather whether or not someone wore a uniform and operated in an environment completely unlike anything I am training to encounter.

Apologies if I am just being dense. Where do I have this wrong?
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Last edited by ZombieTactics; 08-08-2012 at 11:20 AM..
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  #243  
Old 08-08-2012, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by ZombieTactics View Post
Let me understand this clearly, and you tell me where I have misunderstood you.
  • The experience of getting instruction from Tier 1 instructors is really important.
  • According to the only objective definition given, "Tier1" really just an accounting designation. According to your earlier definition, it's just a term of endearment.
  • So, it's really important to to have the experience of being instructed personally, by people you like who got their paychecks funded from the right accounting bucket.
  • Being instructed (even correctly or excellently) by people who you don't like or didn't get their checks from the right money bucket is not worth as much, and not to be taken as seriously.

If that seems snarky, it's really not meant to be. It just seems to be the summation of your logic. It doesn't appear that you are really discussing the quality of instruction or relevance of any technique, but rather whether or not someone wore a uniform and operated in an environment completely unlike anything I am training to encounter.

Apologies if I am just being dense. Where do I have this wrong?
You take a compilation of posts from various posters and then jump to your own conclusions.

The instructors I mentioned I did not fish out of murky waters. The overriding reason to attend classes with them and others is to get the full cycle of instruction (I'll repeat below):

Quote:
Originally Posted by ramzar View Post
Firearms training is not just about watching the techniques of these instructors via video. Let them explain the reasons for a technique/drill, demo it, allow you to perform that technique/drill and give you proper feedback and diagnosis. You're missing the last part unless HAL 9000 is giving you interactive feedback.

Once you have gone through these cycles you can better judge the "awesomeness" of the instructors but more importantly whether the techniques/drills best suit your personal needs.
Without this for every one of those instructors you have no objective talking point other than the usual endless cycles of misdirection, out of context quoting, twists of words, exercises in wordplay, etc.
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  #244  
Old 08-08-2012, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by ramzar View Post
You take a compilation of posts from various posters and then jump to your own conclusions. ...
... you have no objective talking point other than the usual endless cycles of misdirection, out of context quoting, twists of words, exercises in wordplay, etc.
Not really. Perhaps we're just not in sync. If my presentation of the particulars is "out of context" or otherwise flawed ... please show me how and why.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ramzar View Post
... The instructors I mentioned I did not fish out of murky waters. ...
Did I say otherwise?

I apologize if it appears that I am just being deliberately difficult. It's not my intention. Your rationale appears to be little more than "these guys are awesome because I like them", and I am trying to get you to give me some reasons or something less subjective by which to judge your opinion. I am assuming from your comments that you've trained with all of them. That's a pretty impressive accomplishment, and I'd like to learn something from you if possible.

Simply repeating "these guys are great and I like them" (by whatever terms used) isn't helping.
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Last edited by ZombieTactics; 08-08-2012 at 11:41 AM..
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  #245  
Old 08-08-2012, 11:52 AM
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That list of guys is awesome regardless of whether or not they are liked........
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  #246  
Old 08-08-2012, 12:05 PM
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My third person perspective of this conversation in a nutshell. I feel it might help give you guys perspective of where you are coming from.

Ramzar: Michael Phelps is an top tier athlete and instructor. I like to learn to swim from guys like him.

Zombie: Well my PE teacher can teach you how to swim.

Ramzar: Dude, 21 gold medals, world records... Think of what you can learn from someone who has taken that journey and succeeded.

Zombie: Yeah but the only place we swim is in local pool. I'm taking a class from this lifegaurd who watches over the local neighborhood swimming hole. That is more appropriate, he has real world experience of swimming there.

Ramzar: Going to take swimming lessons from a coastguard rescue swimmer.

Zombie: Right but I only plan on swimming in my pool, but I actually haven't swam into the deep part yet.

Ramzar: Neither have I. But I assume if I work to swim at the level of an Olympic athlete and coastguard rescue swimmer I can.

Zombie: Yeah but my PE teacher can probably swim to the deep end of the pool and back. Plus just because Phelps won some gold medals doesn't mean he is an awesome swimmer. You know who coached Phelps? Bob Bowman and he won no medals. So its just as good to take lessons from the lifeguard coach or PE teacher.

Last edited by Kempfer; 08-08-2012 at 12:10 PM..
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  #247  
Old 08-08-2012, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Kempfer View Post
My third person perspective of this conversation in a nutshell. I feel it might help give you guys perspective of where you are coming from.

Ramzar: Michael Phelps is an top tier athlete and instructor. I like to learn to swim from guys like him.

Zombie: Well my PE teacher can teach you how to swim.

Ramzar: Dude, 21 gold medals, world records... Think of what you can learn from someone who has taken that journey and succeeded.

Zombie: Yeah but the only place we swim is in local pool. I'm taking a class from this lifegaurd who watches over the local neighborhood swimming hole. That is more appropriate, he has real world experience of swimming there.

Ramzar: Going to take swimming lessons from a coastguard rescue swimmer.

Zombie: Right but I only plan on swimming in my pool, but I actually haven't swam into the deep part yet.

Ramzar: Neither have I. But I assume if I work to swim at the level of an Olympic athlete and coastguard rescue swimmer I can.

Zombie: Yeah but my PE teacher can probably swim to the deep end of the pool and back. Plus just because Phelps won some gold medals doesn't mean he is an awesome swimmer. You know who coached Phelps? Bob Bowman and he won no medals. So its just as good to take lessons from the lifeguard coach or PE teacher.
Hilarious, but not really (figuratively) what I am saying. I am not arguing for low standards. I am simply questioning the means by which one makes that determination. "Tier 1" has been mentioned, but it's pretty well known that even "tier one" units don't train much with pistols, and generally don't use them much in battle except as a backup. Should their opinion count more than that of those who use a pistol as their primary weapons system, and as such have greater operational experience?

I read an article the other day to the effect that the U.S. military is sending breaching teams to be trained by LE/SWAT Team trainers ... because THEY are the recognized experts. Should I ignore that information because that SWAT guy isn't "Tier 1" enough? Clearly that's not a case of one person being an Olympic athlete and the other being a kiddie pool lifeguard.
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  #248  
Old 08-08-2012, 1:05 PM
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Zombie we've talking about your training backgrounds as a student. You have trained with some top notch guys with a operational backgrounds.

Do you feel they were able to teach better than people without an operational background? (me being one of those) Do you feel hearing things from someone without a operational background made the concepts any less important?
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  #249  
Old 08-08-2012, 1:14 PM
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I think the discussion has got off track again. Who cares if someone is tier 1 or not. Some of the best instructors have no combat experience or have never fired a round in anger.

How long you have been doing something is also meaningless.

I'm here in NY running a transition course for my agency. Some of my students have over 40 years in law enforcement and have been in shootouts and have killed bad guys. They been at it longer than I've been alive, but their basic pistol skills are atrocious.

My four students today collectively have about 100 years of LE or mil experience, but I can guarantee that I have more time behind a gun than all four combined. How long you have done something is meaningless.

It is like saying that I'm an expert driver, since I've has a licence for 20 years.
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  #250  
Old 08-08-2012, 1:17 PM
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Originally Posted by ZombieTactics View Post
"Tier 1" has been mentioned, but it's pretty well known that even "tier one" units don't train much with pistols, and generally don't use them much in battle except as a backup..
How many rounds does the average DEVGRU or CAG operator put through his pistol in training per year? I'm curious what you are basing your statement on.

An interesting visibility point is MARSOC, who just awarded a 1911 contract to Colt. They shoot their 1911s so much that the Marines are looking to the vendor to do pistol support.

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2...3317843&rank=2
MARSOC operators stay on a rigorous deployment cycle, "so they fire a lot of rounds. It's a 15,000-round plus [training] work-up to a deployment," Clark said.
"It's more efficient to replace the guns over time instead of attempting to completely rebuild them."
CAG, DEVGRU? I can't imagine that it would be less, but I don't know. : shrug :

-- Michael
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  #251  
Old 08-08-2012, 1:42 PM
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Originally Posted by JRV View Post
Zombie we've talking about your training backgrounds as a student. You have trained with some top notch guys with a operational backgrounds.

Do you feel they were able to teach better than people without an operational background? (me being one of those) Do you feel hearing things from someone without a operational background made the concepts any less important?
The best teacher I've ever had is Paul Gomez ... definitely not someone with a Tier1 background, but I'd submit that he was a better teacher than anyone you'd care to mention.

The second best teacher I had was a Marine Force Recon guy who probably doesn't want his name mentioned, and it wouldn't ring a bell with anyone anyway. (Rob Knows him) He'd be one of the first people to explain to me the limitations of military pistol training. His opinion was that "the military doesn't know f^^^ about pistols" ... and he'd gladly demonstrate that to anyone with any military background who'd care to challenge it. It was fun to watch the scales come off of some eyes.

It's my opinion, based upon my experience, that it's uncommon to find someone who is both an excellent "athlete" and and excellent "teacher". A lot of people have a winning personality, but the value of their awesome experience is mostly the ability to tell BTDT stories of questionable relevance. It goes something like this:
  • Q: "'scuze me Mr. Warrior Sir, but why do you want me to do that??
  • A: "Well, if you'd ever been in the sandbox, you'd never ask that question!
  • Q: "Ummm, OK, but this is a self-defense class, so why are we using that retention position?
  • A: "So yo don't send one off into your buddies arse in a stack!"
  • A: "But I'm never gonna BE in a 'stack' ... so ..."
  • Q: "Exactly. You need to learn from my tactical warrior awesomeness!"
  • A: "But, like I said, I don't have all these buddies 'in a stack' ... so ..."
  • Q: "Jeezus you ask a lot of pointless questions! It's like this: In Faloo-ja we were pinned down by ..."
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Last edited by ZombieTactics; 08-08-2012 at 1:59 PM..
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  #252  
Old 08-08-2012, 2:43 PM
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Originally Posted by ZombieTactics View Post
"Tier 1" has been mentioned, but it's pretty well known that even "tier one" units don't train much with pistols, and generally don't use them much in battle except as a backup.
Where did you get that information?
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  #253  
Old 08-08-2012, 3:02 PM
Jack's Smirking Revenge Jack's Smirking Revenge is offline
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Originally Posted by FireSnake77 View Post
In regards to training paradigms:
If you are a detective, swat, or military, you will want to train with a team as that is the most plausible time that you will need to use your firearm. So training with military/S.O.F./ paradigms may be appropriate

If you are a civilian, Police Officer, Armed Guard, static post, executive protection, then counter-ambush is a more appropriate training paradigm.
You obviously do not have any experience as a police officer. Police officers must focus their training on both team tactics as well as counter-ambush techniques. Much of police work is reactive but do not forgot how often officers conduct searches and stops using team tactics.
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  #254  
Old 08-08-2012, 3:19 PM
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You obviously do not have any experience as a police officer. Police officers must focus their training on both team tactics as well as counter-ambush techniques. Much of police work is reactive but do not forgot how often officers conduct searches and stops using team tactics.
So if officers are trained equally as well regardless if they are on S.W.A.T or just a patrol officer, why aren't all LEO considered S.W.A.T if this ia the case?
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  #255  
Old 08-08-2012, 3:49 PM
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So if officers are trained equally as well regardless if they are on S.W.A.T or just a patrol officer, why aren't all LEO considered S.W.A.T if this ia the case?
That is not even close to what he is saying. A police officer receives training in tactics, communication, stress reactions, interactions. We also get some training in room searches and entry. One key point in training is going from condition green to red, and back to green, in an instant.

All this training, is at a basic level, however. Just like their firearms training.

A SWAT member receives advance training in all this, plus additional weapons training. They also train constantly, something your average officer does not do.

YMMV, as SWAT training varies widely.
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  #256  
Old 08-08-2012, 3:58 PM
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So if officers are trained equally as well regardless if they are on S.W.A.T or just a patrol officer, why aren't all LEO considered S.W.A.T if this ia the case?
I never said that patrol officers are trained as well as SWAT officers. I said that police officers must train for both counter ambush and team tactics. This is common place in modern law enforcement training. SWAT teams are not the only people who use team movements in law enforcement. Who do you think responds to an active shooter first? Who do you think searches for the suspect during a burglary? Who do you think searches for a suspect in yards and other open areas within a perimeter? Who do you think handles robberies in progress? Who do you think conducts high risk traffic stops? You know that there are specific tactics for those situations don't you?. We don't call SWAT every time we look for a suspect.

In my agency we are trained in these tactics by our SWAT team.

Next time you conduct a training class with patrol officers, ask them about it.
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  #257  
Old 08-08-2012, 4:07 PM
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Originally Posted by ZombieTactics View Post

Your rationale appears to be little more than "these guys are awesome because I like them", and I am trying to get you to give me some reasons or something less subjective by which to judge your opinion. I am assuming from your comments that you've trained with all of them. That's a pretty impressive accomplishment, and I'd like to learn something from you if possible.

Simply repeating "these guys are great and I like them" (by whatever terms used) isn't helping.
I try a GREAT variety of firearms training. Ever since I started adding both competition and some of these "awesome" instructors (Fall 2010) I have expanded my skills in marksmanship, weapons handling, mindset and tactics.

Before that I was limiting my horizon too much with some great local outfits (ITTS, TFTT) and some not so (ADE, SI). Since June 2010 I started with many more outfits: FOG, Chris Costa, TAC-1, Blackwater, Jason Falla, Jeff Gonzales, Rob Haught, Larry Vickers, Ken Hackathorn, TigerSwan, Mike Pannone, Pat McNamara, Northern Red. Also, a few more local ones: Covered 6, FTA, PTS, DTC, TASC. All of these I have actually taken classes with. The weapons handling and marksmanship training with the Tier 1 instructors (great operators in addition to firearms training of other operators) has been extremely valuable in improving my skills. Many have taught hundreds upon hundreds of civilians and LE in addition to regular military and SF units. I get great feedback and diagnostics from these guys.

I'll be trying another local one this month: Mossie Tactics. In September my first class with Kyle Defoor. In October my first class with Frank Proctor. Next year Rob Pincus, Kyle Lamb, Paul Howe, etc.

I have no preconceived prejudice against firearms outfits nor instructors unless there's corroborative evidence of sub-par instruction, instructor's shady background and most importantly safety (case in point TR's use of photographer downrange kneeling next to the targets being shot at).

I have tried to write up AARs as much as possible. You can search for them on CalGuns: http://www.google.com/search?q=ramza...te:calguns.net
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  #258  
Old 08-08-2012, 4:11 PM
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Next time you conduct a training class with patrol officers, ask them about it.
I could always ask a few of my best friends who teach for the agencies they work for. I also have watched plenty of agencies train the tactics they use.

That is besides the point, I'm trying to have a healthy exchange of information not argue.

I think firesnake' point was a patrol officer should spend a lot of time on counter ambush because every call isn't high speed and violent.

Can we agree on that?

A DV or traffic spot might have some anticipation of the need to shoot, but I think the officer is going to be reacting to an action or stimuli. If you aren't hunting (example serving a warrant as an example) the need to shoot is going to be reactive. So counter ambush training seems like a great thing to spend a lot of your training time on.
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Old 08-08-2012, 4:25 PM
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Originally Posted by ZombieTactics View Post
"Tier 1" has been mentioned, but it's pretty well known that even "tier one" units don't train much with pistols, and generally don't use them much in battle except as a backup.
That's utter poppycock. You obviously have not talked to some of the recent Tier 1 operators. Some of the best pistol shots I've ever seen are Delta guys.
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Old 08-08-2012, 4:42 PM
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LMAO @ Tier 1 guys don't train much with pistols.
Do you realize how you come across? Three people in my course this weekend who I have NEVER met before were talking about how you added nothing constructive, how you ignored post that made sense you couldn't talk ish about and hid like a child behind his big brother (example: no pic, no talk of your background or even who you are) 3 students opinions on you NOT mine. All had nothing positive to say about you, kinda like your post in general. 25+ students 9 who visit Calguns and 3 who went on a tangent about you.
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Old 08-08-2012, 4:54 PM
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I could always ask a few of my best friends who teach for the agencies they work for. I also have watched plenty of agencies train the tactics they use.

That is besides the point, I'm trying to have a healthy exchange of information not argue.

I think firesnake' point was a patrol officer should spend a lot of time on counter ambush because every call isn't high speed and violent.

Can we agree on that?

A DV or traffic spot might have some anticipation of the need to shoot, but I think the officer is going to be reacting to an action or stimuli. If you aren't hunting (example serving a warrant as an example) the need to shoot is going to be reactive. So counter ambush training seems like a great thing to spend a lot of your training time on.
You and I have established that we do not agree on a lot of things and that is fine. Our last discussion ended amicably and I too, would like to keep it that way.

I know the point that firesnake was trying to make. I believe that it was an over simplification of the training required for a police officer.

I do agree with you that it is very important to train for counter ambush tactics. I will add that I employ both counter ambush tactics and team tactics during every shift. I do not need to respond to a known "high speed and violent" call to use team tactics or take steps to prevent being ambushed.

I will also add that most team encounters with a suspect will still involve reacting to the action or stimuli of said suspect. This is less likely to be an ambush situation because the officers will already be employing their weapons (lethal and less lethal), but officers must train for as many scenarios as possible. Searching for an active shooter would be closest to a "hunting" scenario and would be less reactive.

The point I am trying to make is that if police primarily focus their training on counter ambush tactics and neglect team tactics, it will be very difficult for officers to work together (with proper tactics) in many of the situations that we face every shift.
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Old 08-08-2012, 5:01 PM
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You and I have established that we do not agree on a lot of things and that is fine. Our last discussion ended amicably and I too, would like to keep it that way.

I know the point that firesnake was trying to make. I believe that it was an over simplification of the training required for a police officer.

I do agree with you that it is very important to train for counter ambush tactics. I will add that I employ both counter ambush tactics and team tactics during every shift. I do not need to respond to a known "high speed and violent" call to use team tactics or take steps to prevent being ambushed.

I will also add that most team encounters with a suspect will still involve reacting to the action or stimuli of said suspect. This is less likely to be an ambush situation because the officers will already be employing their weapons (lethal and less lethal), but officers must train for as many scenarios as possible. Searching for an active shooter would be closest to a "hunting" scenario and would be less reactive.

The point I am trying to make is that if police primarily focus their training on counter ambush tactics and neglect team tactics, it will be very difficult for officers to work together (with proper tactics) in many of the situations that we face every shift.
We actually agree on the concepts but are disagreeing because how we are articulating the details.
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Old 08-08-2012, 6:48 PM
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... That's utter poppycock. You obviously have not talked to some of the recent Tier 1 operators. ...
So now not even Tier 1 operators are "good enough" ... they have to be "recent Tier 1 operators"? I'm confused ... you earlier defined the phrase as being a "term of endearment". Does this mean you recently had to have liked them?

Yes, I'm being snarky now, but trust me it's meant in a good-natured way. I like you, I just don't have any idea what you are talking about anymore, and I don't think it's all my fault. Every July 4th for the past 3 years I've been at a picnic table absolutely crawling with high-speed, low-drag military types, and usually a couple of people with stars on their collars. I'll admit that some of them weren't deployed last week. If you want to make it up here next year, I'll save you a spot at the table. You can ask them the same questions I do, and hopefully have the good sense not to tell them that they have no idea what they are talking about.
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Old 08-08-2012, 7:49 PM
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So now not even Tier 1 operators are "good enough" ... they have to be "recent Tier 1 operators"? I'm confused ... you earlier defined the phrase as being a "term of endearment". Does this mean you recently had to have liked them?

Yes, I'm being snarky now, but trust me it's meant in a good-natured way. I like you, I just don't have any idea what you are talking about anymore, and I don't think it's all my fault. Every July 4th for the past 3 years I've been at a picnic table absolutely crawling with high-speed, low-drag military types, and usually a couple of people with stars on their collars. I'll admit that some of them weren't deployed last week. If you want to make it up here next year, I'll save you a spot at the table. You can ask them the same questions I do, and hopefully have the good sense not to tell them that they have no idea what they are talking about.
More attempts at nitpicking, subterfuge and misdirection.

Are you doubting that every Tier 1 operator (Delta & DevGru) is an expert pistol marksman or are you saying that because they're so good they don't need to train?

Your quote below:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZombieTactics View Post
"Tier 1" has been mentioned, but it's pretty well known that even "tier one" units don't train much with pistols, and generally don't use them much in battle except as a backup.
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Old 08-08-2012, 8:08 PM
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More attempts at nitpicking, subterfuge and misdirection.
I don't think it's "nitpicking" to accept your definition of a term and then use it as such.

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Originally Posted by ramzar View Post
Are you doubting that every Tier 1 operator (Delta & DevGru) is an expert pistol marksman or are you saying that because they're so good they don't need to train?
So now "Tier 1" is Delta & DEVGRU, and not just people you like? Are you sure you aren't the one engaging in subterfuge and misdirection? Is everyone on your previous "Tier 1" list a recent Delta or DEVGRU operator? That "recent" thing seemed to be important a moment ago. Color me confused, but please give me something better than your ever-changing definitions of what exactly it is we are discussing.

As for "expert pistol marksman" ... my father-in-law earned that official badge when he was in the Navy. He doesn't know crap about employing a pistol for self defense, so I have no trouble believing that Delta & DEVGRU are far beyond that that level. Did you mean something else? Am I wrong to think that "expert" means - for people in the military - exactly what the military says it means, or do you have a special definition for that too?

How 'bout you stop employing "nitpicking, subterfuge and misdirection", and then you can complain about me doing it.
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Old 08-08-2012, 8:21 PM
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I don't think it's "nitpicking" to accept your definition of a term and then use it as such.

So now "Tier 1" is Delta & DEVGRU, and not just people you like? Are you sure you aren't the one engaging in subterfuge and misdirection? Is everyone on your previous "Tier 1" list a recent Delta or DEVGRU operator? That "recent" thing seemed to be important a moment ago. Color me confused, but please give me something better than your ever-changing definitions of what exactly it is we are discussing.

As for "expert pistol marksman" ... my father-in-law earned that official badge when he was in the Navy. He doesn't know crap about employing a pistol for self defense, so I have no trouble believing that Delta & DEVGRU are up to that level. Did you mean something else? Am I wrong to think that "expert" means - for people in the military - exactly what the military says it means, or do you have a special definition for that too?

How 'bout you stop employing "nitpicking, subterfuge and misdirection", and then you can complain about me doing it.
If you had read carefully and not jumped to your usual out of context conclusions you would've seen that I said "Tier 1 operator" and NOT "Tier 1 instructor". The former is specific while the latter is a general term. Surprised you're not privy to such knowledge.

Are you seriously comparing the generic Navy "expert pistol marksman" to the pistol proficiency of a Tier 1 operator? Just wow!

Have you taken any courses with the list of Tier 1 instructors I posted? Again, if not, then you have no point of reference to talk about these instructors versus those you have. Attending a class as an observer is only part of the story. You have to participate fully as a bona fide student and allow the instructor to give you proper feedback and diagnosis.
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Old 08-08-2012, 9:03 PM
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If you had read carefully and not jumped to your usual out of context conclusions you would've seen that I said "Tier 1 operator" and NOT "Tier 1 instructor". The former is specific while the latter is a general term. Surprised you're not privy to such knowledge.
Sorry that I can't track the ever changing saga "Tier 1". maybe if you'd keep your story straight it would help us mere peasants understand.

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Originally Posted by ramzar View Post
Are you seriously comparing the generic Navy "expert pistol marksman" to the pistol proficiency of a Tier 1 operator? Just wow!
You use the term "expert pistol marksman" in reference to military personnel, and I am wrong to think that might mean exactly what the military means by that designation? Just wow indeed!

Quote:
Have you taken any courses with the list of Tier 1 instructors I posted?
I don't even think half your list qualifies as "Tier 1" within the ever changing definition of that phrase. What's a "Tier 1" instructor again? ... an instructor you like, or an instructor who trains people you like, or someone who trains Delta/DEVGRU guys, or someone who is an instructor who happened to be Delta/DEVGRU ... recently?

Quote:
Again, if not, then you have no point of reference to talk about these instructors versus those you have.
Jeez, we're back to this? If I see someone do something, I can certainly say "hey he does that" And then he explains it, and I can say to myself "oh that's his explanation". Granted I'll be absent the experience of working some particular skill under careful direction, but that's not having "no point of reference". What you are saying - once again - is that somehow the mystical "experience" of having "Cool Gun Guy" tell me something in person imparts it with a mystical glow of awesomeness? This cult like hero worship gets tiring. I am in personal contact with a couple of people on your list, and they don't give me half the crap for the questions I raise that you do. One is actually incorporating a suggestion of mine in his future civilian courses. I don't know what to make of that, but perhaps the experience of actually talking with them doesn't give me a point of reference either?

Dude, I think we're just talking past each other. I don't want to be your enemy, but I don't think we're getting anywhere here. I find a lot of your posts informative and useful. I enjoy your perspective. We're just not gonna get anywhere here, as we are approaching the subject from two entirely different perspectives.
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Old 08-08-2012, 9:14 PM
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Sorry that I can't track the ever changing saga "Tier 1". maybe if you'd keep your story straight it would help us mere peasants understand.

You use the term "expert pistol marksman" in reference to military personnel, and I am wrong to think that might mean exactly what the military means by that designation? Just wow indeed!

I don't even think half your list qualifies as "Tier 1" within the ever changing definition of that phrase. What's a "Tier 1" instructor again? ... an instructor you like, or an instructor who trains people you like, or someone who trains Delta/DEVGRU guys, or someone who is an instructor who happened to be Delta/DEVGRU ... recently?

Jeez, we're back to this? If I see someone do something, I can certainly say "hey he does that" And then he explains it, and I can say to myself "oh that's his explanation". Granted I'll be absent the experience of working some particular skill under careful direction, but that's not having "no point of reference". What you are saying - once again - is that somehow the mystical "experience" of having "Cool Gun Guy" tell me something in person imparts it with a mystical glow of awesomeness? This cult like hero worship gets tiring. I am in personal contact with a couple of people on your list, and they don't give me half the crap for the questions I raise that you do. I don't know what to make of that, but perhaps the experience of actually talking with them doesn't give me a point of reference either?
You're pretty much null and void from my perspective as an authority on firearms training. Personally, you were already tainted by so vehemently defending the outfit in that Safe to have photographer downrange? thread where you were convinced it was safe lacking credible rational and being in the 9% minority viewpoint.
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Old 08-08-2012, 9:21 PM
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You kids shouldn't play so rough, somebody's gonna start crying.

First: I fricken hate code names... seriously, Mike "Firesnakeeater77" or whatever? It took me half a page to figure out who the hell you were...

Second: What is the point here? Did someone have a question about what a vehicle tactics course has to do with teaching intuitive defensive shooting skills? Maybe, I can clear that up:

Nothing.

Did someone want to know what having the personal integrity to see one's own weaknesses as motivation to get better might have to do with the ability to teach others and motivate them to improve?

Maybe Everything.

*********

Was there anything else going on besides male genitalia measuring ??

Didn't think so...

*********

All of you should take a Time Out and think about why you come to this forum and why you are supposed to be discussing these topics... including "my guys".
(Except maybe HK35, who seems to have a good idea what the hell he was talking about, assuming he wasn't just trying to bust balls and sound like a know-it-all.).

-RJP

Now this guy, I like!
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Old 08-08-2012, 9:33 PM
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Dude, I think we're just talking past each other. I don't want to be your enemy, but I don't think we're getting anywhere here. I find a lot of your posts informative and useful. I enjoy your perspective. We're just not gonna get anywhere here, as we are approaching the subject from two entirely different perspectives.
I stopped subscribing to the hate concept a long time ago. Too much negative energy and humanity's biggest downfall! I don't consider you an enemy. Never. However, I'm extremely mindful of what you say and in certain areas you're null and void until you're rehabilitated.
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Old 08-09-2012, 4:39 AM
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far as im concerned any debate is a good one.

just the practice of debating something makes you think it through more thoroughly and consider alternatives to your current line of thinking.

so im glad this conversation is going on and im glad the participants are thick skinned enough to keep it going. we should be more scared of people who dont want us debating things, than of those we are debating things with.
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Old 08-09-2012, 7:33 PM
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You're pretty much null and void from my perspective as an authority on firearms training. Personally, you were already tainted by so vehemently defending the outfit in that Safe to have photographer downrange? thread where you were convinced it was safe lacking credible rational and being in the 9% minority viewpoint.
Not angry or fuming, just sitting here with a chuckle in my throat ...

I wasn't aware of anyone putting you in position of making such judgments about others. I've never claimed to be an "authority", just a guy with a perspective. You're welcome to your opinion, but that's about as far as it goes. I don't especially care whether you think I am "tainted","rehabilitated" or anything else. That's a laughable notion. Whether I am counted with any particular percentage in an unscientific, self-selected poll of 190 random individuals is a meaningless data point. I suspect this kind of appeal to questionable authority, lack of independent thought and lack of attention to detail "taints" much of what you've posted. I find your posts interesting and often informative nonetheless.

I've noted a strong tone of "I'm more tactical/awesome than you" in many of your posts. You have every reason to be proud of your accomplishments, but unless I ask you to be a teacher or mentor, don't think for one moment that such comments hold any sway with me. You are in no position to make such judgments, especially based upon the kind of "everybody knows that all the cool kids say this is the really cool way to X" arguments you've presented.

I don't care who you've trained with. I care what you know and what you can relate. I've trained with some solid people myself. I don't engage in argumentum ad verecundiam, argumentum ad populum or worship at any one's alter, so please stow all the "x% believe this" or "so-n-so says z". I'm not looking to join a faith or a cult. I am trying to learn. I question everything I learn (regardless of the source) until I find what makes good sense to me. Your opinion doesn't enter into the matter unless you can make a compelling argument. In this case, you haven't ... IMHO.

I am absolutely happy to discuss anything with you, with no ill intent and in a spirit of open exchange of ideas. But I have no interest in your value judgements of me, my abilities or my "fitness" to engage in such discussions with you or anyone else. Unless you walk on water, it's time to come down from that lofty perch.

I'll continue to read your posts with interest and give them their considerable due ... without prejudice or anything beyond ordinary skepticism. Be safe, and be well.
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Old 08-17-2012, 6:10 PM
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I saw a video where Rob Pincus was bashing 1911's. He suggests that very few 1911s can make it through one of his classes. Does that suggest that a 1911 fan should stay away from his style of instruction? This thread had me considering signing up for one of his classes until I saw his video. I worry that I would be received with hostility if I showed up with the very gun he was bashing. Maybe someone could talk about the issues that prevent a 1911 from making through the classes?
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Old 08-17-2012, 6:23 PM
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I saw a video where Rob Pincus was bashing 1911's. He suggests that very few 1911s can make it through one of his classes. Does that suggest that a 1911 fan should stay away from his style of instruction? This thread had me considering signing up for one of his classes until I saw his video. I worry that I would be received with hostility if I showed up with the very gun he was bashing. Maybe someone could talk about the issues that prevent a 1911 from making through the classes?
What prevents 1911's from working? Sometimes it's student error. Not clicking the safety off. Most of the time it's just the gun malfunctioning on a consistent basis throughout the course. I personally have only seen one 1911 make it through a 1-day CFS course. I've seen them malfunction during the first drill and two break during the first drill. Both extractor issues on a Les Baer and a Kimber that broke.

I wouldn't worry about being received with hostility, but I recommend bringing a back up gun. Hope that answers your question.
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Old 08-17-2012, 8:55 PM
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When a class comes to town I'll have to stash my Glock the in the range bag as well.

Thanks.
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Old 08-17-2012, 8:57 PM
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When a class comes to town I'll have to stash my Glock the in the range bag as well.

Thanks.
Where are you at in So. Cal? PM me 10X has CFS courses multiple times a month in So.Cal
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Old 08-31-2012, 10:23 AM
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I got an emailed newsletter from ICE Training and it included the following:

Quote:
*
A very thorough independent review of a recent class taught by two Certified CFS Instructors

More and More, Students are recognizing the value of training with ANY CFS Instructor.

For too many years, too many people have thought that the only "real" Combat Focus Shooting courses were taught by Rob Pincus or I.C.E. Training. Thankfully, more feedback from students of our outside instructors is changing that perception.

“Zombie Tactics” is a well known handle in the online firearms community and his popular YouTube Channel is a Go To Source for trusted information by many people. He recently attended a Combat Focus® Shooting course in Las Vegas taught by two Active Certified CFS Instructors and he offers a very thorough After Action Report that is worth watching for anyone interested in understanding the program.
http://www.imakenews.com/valhalla/e_...tsTnq,b6bjtgd3
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