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Competition, Action Shooting And Training. Competition, Three gun, IPSC, IDPA , and Training discussion here. |
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#241
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Once you have gone through these cycles you can better judge the "awesomeness" of the instructors but more importantly whether the techniques/drills best suit your personal needs.
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Their drills are bloodless battles, and their battles bloody drills. - Historian Josephus (AD 37-101) on the Roman military |
#242
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If that seems snarky, it's really not meant to be. It just seems to be the summation of your logic. It doesn't appear that you are really discussing the quality of instruction or relevance of any technique, but rather whether or not someone wore a uniform and operated in an environment completely unlike anything I am training to encounter. Apologies if I am just being dense. Where do I have this wrong?
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| I don't pretend to be an "authority." I'm just a guy who trains a lot, shoots a lot and has a perspective. Check the ZombieTactics Channel on YouTube for all sorts of gun-related goodness CLICK HERE Last edited by ZombieTactics; 08-08-2012 at 11:20 AM.. |
#243
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The instructors I mentioned I did not fish out of murky waters. The overriding reason to attend classes with them and others is to get the full cycle of instruction (I'll repeat below): Quote:
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Their drills are bloodless battles, and their battles bloody drills. - Historian Josephus (AD 37-101) on the Roman military |
#244
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I apologize if it appears that I am just being deliberately difficult. It's not my intention. Your rationale appears to be little more than "these guys are awesome because I like them", and I am trying to get you to give me some reasons or something less subjective by which to judge your opinion. I am assuming from your comments that you've trained with all of them. That's a pretty impressive accomplishment, and I'd like to learn something from you if possible. Simply repeating "these guys are great and I like them" (by whatever terms used) isn't helping.
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| I don't pretend to be an "authority." I'm just a guy who trains a lot, shoots a lot and has a perspective. Check the ZombieTactics Channel on YouTube for all sorts of gun-related goodness CLICK HERE Last edited by ZombieTactics; 08-08-2012 at 11:41 AM.. |
#246
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My third person perspective of this conversation in a nutshell. I feel it might help give you guys perspective of where you are coming from.
Ramzar: Michael Phelps is an top tier athlete and instructor. I like to learn to swim from guys like him. Zombie: Well my PE teacher can teach you how to swim. Ramzar: Dude, 21 gold medals, world records... Think of what you can learn from someone who has taken that journey and succeeded. Zombie: Yeah but the only place we swim is in local pool. I'm taking a class from this lifegaurd who watches over the local neighborhood swimming hole. That is more appropriate, he has real world experience of swimming there. Ramzar: Going to take swimming lessons from a coastguard rescue swimmer. Zombie: Right but I only plan on swimming in my pool, but I actually haven't swam into the deep part yet. Ramzar: Neither have I. But I assume if I work to swim at the level of an Olympic athlete and coastguard rescue swimmer I can. Zombie: Yeah but my PE teacher can probably swim to the deep end of the pool and back. Plus just because Phelps won some gold medals doesn't mean he is an awesome swimmer. You know who coached Phelps? Bob Bowman and he won no medals. So its just as good to take lessons from the lifeguard coach or PE teacher. Last edited by Kempfer; 08-08-2012 at 12:10 PM.. |
#247
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I read an article the other day to the effect that the U.S. military is sending breaching teams to be trained by LE/SWAT Team trainers ... because THEY are the recognized experts. Should I ignore that information because that SWAT guy isn't "Tier 1" enough? Clearly that's not a case of one person being an Olympic athlete and the other being a kiddie pool lifeguard.
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| I don't pretend to be an "authority." I'm just a guy who trains a lot, shoots a lot and has a perspective. Check the ZombieTactics Channel on YouTube for all sorts of gun-related goodness CLICK HERE |
#248
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Zombie we've talking about your training backgrounds as a student. You have trained with some top notch guys with a operational backgrounds.
Do you feel they were able to teach better than people without an operational background? (me being one of those) Do you feel hearing things from someone without a operational background made the concepts any less important?
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Nihil Timedum Est "Stay in Awe of the experience of being human" Human Weapon System Course taught by D.A.M.N Accuracy is YES or NO Not A or B zone |
#249
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I think the discussion has got off track again. Who cares if someone is tier 1 or not. Some of the best instructors have no combat experience or have never fired a round in anger.
How long you have been doing something is also meaningless. I'm here in NY running a transition course for my agency. Some of my students have over 40 years in law enforcement and have been in shootouts and have killed bad guys. They been at it longer than I've been alive, but their basic pistol skills are atrocious. My four students today collectively have about 100 years of LE or mil experience, but I can guarantee that I have more time behind a gun than all four combined. How long you have done something is meaningless. It is like saying that I'm an expert driver, since I've has a licence for 20 years. |
#250
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An interesting visibility point is MARSOC, who just awarded a 1911 contract to Colt. They shoot their 1911s so much that the Marines are looking to the vendor to do pistol support. http://www.military.com/daily-news/2...3317843&rank=2 MARSOC operators stay on a rigorous deployment cycle, "so they fire a lot of rounds. It's a 15,000-round plus [training] work-up to a deployment," Clark said.CAG, DEVGRU? I can't imagine that it would be less, but I don't know. : shrug : -- Michael |
#251
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The second best teacher I had was a Marine Force Recon guy who probably doesn't want his name mentioned, and it wouldn't ring a bell with anyone anyway. (Rob Knows him) He'd be one of the first people to explain to me the limitations of military pistol training. His opinion was that "the military doesn't know f^^^ about pistols" ... and he'd gladly demonstrate that to anyone with any military background who'd care to challenge it. It was fun to watch the scales come off of some eyes. It's my opinion, based upon my experience, that it's uncommon to find someone who is both an excellent "athlete" and and excellent "teacher". A lot of people have a winning personality, but the value of their awesome experience is mostly the ability to tell BTDT stories of questionable relevance. It goes something like this:
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| I don't pretend to be an "authority." I'm just a guy who trains a lot, shoots a lot and has a perspective. Check the ZombieTactics Channel on YouTube for all sorts of gun-related goodness CLICK HERE Last edited by ZombieTactics; 08-08-2012 at 1:59 PM.. |
#252
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Where did you get that information?
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#253
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#254
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Nihil Timedum Est "Stay in Awe of the experience of being human" Human Weapon System Course taught by D.A.M.N Accuracy is YES or NO Not A or B zone Last edited by JRV; 08-08-2012 at 3:36 PM.. |
#255
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All this training, is at a basic level, however. Just like their firearms training. A SWAT member receives advance training in all this, plus additional weapons training. They also train constantly, something your average officer does not do. YMMV, as SWAT training varies widely. |
#256
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In my agency we are trained in these tactics by our SWAT team. Next time you conduct a training class with patrol officers, ask them about it. |
#257
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Before that I was limiting my horizon too much with some great local outfits (ITTS, TFTT) and some not so (ADE, SI). Since June 2010 I started with many more outfits: FOG, Chris Costa, TAC-1, Blackwater, Jason Falla, Jeff Gonzales, Rob Haught, Larry Vickers, Ken Hackathorn, TigerSwan, Mike Pannone, Pat McNamara, Northern Red. Also, a few more local ones: Covered 6, FTA, PTS, DTC, TASC. All of these I have actually taken classes with. The weapons handling and marksmanship training with the Tier 1 instructors (great operators in addition to firearms training of other operators) has been extremely valuable in improving my skills. Many have taught hundreds upon hundreds of civilians and LE in addition to regular military and SF units. I get great feedback and diagnostics from these guys. I'll be trying another local one this month: Mossie Tactics. In September my first class with Kyle Defoor. In October my first class with Frank Proctor. Next year Rob Pincus, Kyle Lamb, Paul Howe, etc. I have no preconceived prejudice against firearms outfits nor instructors unless there's corroborative evidence of sub-par instruction, instructor's shady background and most importantly safety (case in point TR's use of photographer downrange kneeling next to the targets being shot at). I have tried to write up AARs as much as possible. You can search for them on CalGuns: http://www.google.com/search?q=ramza...te:calguns.net
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Their drills are bloodless battles, and their battles bloody drills. - Historian Josephus (AD 37-101) on the Roman military Last edited by ramzar; 08-08-2012 at 5:15 PM.. Reason: AAR search fix |
#258
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That is besides the point, I'm trying to have a healthy exchange of information not argue. I think firesnake' point was a patrol officer should spend a lot of time on counter ambush because every call isn't high speed and violent. Can we agree on that? A DV or traffic spot might have some anticipation of the need to shoot, but I think the officer is going to be reacting to an action or stimuli. If you aren't hunting (example serving a warrant as an example) the need to shoot is going to be reactive. So counter ambush training seems like a great thing to spend a lot of your training time on.
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Nihil Timedum Est "Stay in Awe of the experience of being human" Human Weapon System Course taught by D.A.M.N Accuracy is YES or NO Not A or B zone |
#259
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That's utter poppycock. You obviously have not talked to some of the recent Tier 1 operators. Some of the best pistol shots I've ever seen are Delta guys.
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Their drills are bloodless battles, and their battles bloody drills. - Historian Josephus (AD 37-101) on the Roman military |
#260
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Do you realize how you come across? Three people in my course this weekend who I have NEVER met before were talking about how you added nothing constructive, how you ignored post that made sense you couldn't talk ish about and hid like a child behind his big brother (example: no pic, no talk of your background or even who you are) 3 students opinions on you NOT mine. All had nothing positive to say about you, kinda like your post in general. 25+ students 9 who visit Calguns and 3 who went on a tangent about you.
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Nihil Timedum Est "Stay in Awe of the experience of being human" Human Weapon System Course taught by D.A.M.N Accuracy is YES or NO Not A or B zone |
#261
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I know the point that firesnake was trying to make. I believe that it was an over simplification of the training required for a police officer. I do agree with you that it is very important to train for counter ambush tactics. I will add that I employ both counter ambush tactics and team tactics during every shift. I do not need to respond to a known "high speed and violent" call to use team tactics or take steps to prevent being ambushed. I will also add that most team encounters with a suspect will still involve reacting to the action or stimuli of said suspect. This is less likely to be an ambush situation because the officers will already be employing their weapons (lethal and less lethal), but officers must train for as many scenarios as possible. Searching for an active shooter would be closest to a "hunting" scenario and would be less reactive. The point I am trying to make is that if police primarily focus their training on counter ambush tactics and neglect team tactics, it will be very difficult for officers to work together (with proper tactics) in many of the situations that we face every shift. |
#262
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Nihil Timedum Est "Stay in Awe of the experience of being human" Human Weapon System Course taught by D.A.M.N Accuracy is YES or NO Not A or B zone Last edited by JRV; 08-08-2012 at 5:07 PM.. |
#263
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Yes, I'm being snarky now, but trust me it's meant in a good-natured way. I like you, I just don't have any idea what you are talking about anymore, and I don't think it's all my fault. Every July 4th for the past 3 years I've been at a picnic table absolutely crawling with high-speed, low-drag military types, and usually a couple of people with stars on their collars. I'll admit that some of them weren't deployed last week. If you want to make it up here next year, I'll save you a spot at the table. You can ask them the same questions I do, and hopefully have the good sense not to tell them that they have no idea what they are talking about.
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| I don't pretend to be an "authority." I'm just a guy who trains a lot, shoots a lot and has a perspective. Check the ZombieTactics Channel on YouTube for all sorts of gun-related goodness CLICK HERE Last edited by ZombieTactics; 08-08-2012 at 7:01 PM.. |
#264
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Are you doubting that every Tier 1 operator (Delta & DevGru) is an expert pistol marksman or are you saying that because they're so good they don't need to train? Your quote below:
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Their drills are bloodless battles, and their battles bloody drills. - Historian Josephus (AD 37-101) on the Roman military |
#265
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I don't think it's "nitpicking" to accept your definition of a term and then use it as such.
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As for "expert pistol marksman" ... my father-in-law earned that official badge when he was in the Navy. He doesn't know crap about employing a pistol for self defense, so I have no trouble believing that Delta & DEVGRU are far beyond that that level. Did you mean something else? Am I wrong to think that "expert" means - for people in the military - exactly what the military says it means, or do you have a special definition for that too? How 'bout you stop employing "nitpicking, subterfuge and misdirection", and then you can complain about me doing it.
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| I don't pretend to be an "authority." I'm just a guy who trains a lot, shoots a lot and has a perspective. Check the ZombieTactics Channel on YouTube for all sorts of gun-related goodness CLICK HERE Last edited by ZombieTactics; 08-08-2012 at 8:11 PM.. |
#266
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Are you seriously comparing the generic Navy "expert pistol marksman" to the pistol proficiency of a Tier 1 operator? Just wow! Have you taken any courses with the list of Tier 1 instructors I posted? Again, if not, then you have no point of reference to talk about these instructors versus those you have. Attending a class as an observer is only part of the story. You have to participate fully as a bona fide student and allow the instructor to give you proper feedback and diagnosis.
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Their drills are bloodless battles, and their battles bloody drills. - Historian Josephus (AD 37-101) on the Roman military |
#267
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Dude, I think we're just talking past each other. I don't want to be your enemy, but I don't think we're getting anywhere here. I find a lot of your posts informative and useful. I enjoy your perspective. We're just not gonna get anywhere here, as we are approaching the subject from two entirely different perspectives.
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| I don't pretend to be an "authority." I'm just a guy who trains a lot, shoots a lot and has a perspective. Check the ZombieTactics Channel on YouTube for all sorts of gun-related goodness CLICK HERE Last edited by ZombieTactics; 08-08-2012 at 9:16 PM.. |
#268
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Their drills are bloodless battles, and their battles bloody drills. - Historian Josephus (AD 37-101) on the Roman military |
#269
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Now this guy, I like! |
#270
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Their drills are bloodless battles, and their battles bloody drills. - Historian Josephus (AD 37-101) on the Roman military |
#271
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far as im concerned any debate is a good one.
just the practice of debating something makes you think it through more thoroughly and consider alternatives to your current line of thinking. so im glad this conversation is going on and im glad the participants are thick skinned enough to keep it going. we should be more scared of people who dont want us debating things, than of those we are debating things with. |
#272
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I wasn't aware of anyone putting you in position of making such judgments about others. I've never claimed to be an "authority", just a guy with a perspective. You're welcome to your opinion, but that's about as far as it goes. I don't especially care whether you think I am "tainted","rehabilitated" or anything else. That's a laughable notion. Whether I am counted with any particular percentage in an unscientific, self-selected poll of 190 random individuals is a meaningless data point. I suspect this kind of appeal to questionable authority, lack of independent thought and lack of attention to detail "taints" much of what you've posted. I find your posts interesting and often informative nonetheless. I've noted a strong tone of "I'm more tactical/awesome than you" in many of your posts. You have every reason to be proud of your accomplishments, but unless I ask you to be a teacher or mentor, don't think for one moment that such comments hold any sway with me. You are in no position to make such judgments, especially based upon the kind of "everybody knows that all the cool kids say this is the really cool way to X" arguments you've presented. I don't care who you've trained with. I care what you know and what you can relate. I've trained with some solid people myself. I don't engage in argumentum ad verecundiam, argumentum ad populum or worship at any one's alter, so please stow all the "x% believe this" or "so-n-so says z". I'm not looking to join a faith or a cult. I am trying to learn. I question everything I learn (regardless of the source) until I find what makes good sense to me. Your opinion doesn't enter into the matter unless you can make a compelling argument. In this case, you haven't ... IMHO. I am absolutely happy to discuss anything with you, with no ill intent and in a spirit of open exchange of ideas. But I have no interest in your value judgements of me, my abilities or my "fitness" to engage in such discussions with you or anyone else. Unless you walk on water, it's time to come down from that lofty perch. I'll continue to read your posts with interest and give them their considerable due ... without prejudice or anything beyond ordinary skepticism. Be safe, and be well.
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| I don't pretend to be an "authority." I'm just a guy who trains a lot, shoots a lot and has a perspective. Check the ZombieTactics Channel on YouTube for all sorts of gun-related goodness CLICK HERE Last edited by ZombieTactics; 08-10-2012 at 9:22 AM.. |
#273
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I saw a video where Rob Pincus was bashing 1911's. He suggests that very few 1911s can make it through one of his classes. Does that suggest that a 1911 fan should stay away from his style of instruction? This thread had me considering signing up for one of his classes until I saw his video. I worry that I would be received with hostility if I showed up with the very gun he was bashing. Maybe someone could talk about the issues that prevent a 1911 from making through the classes?
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#274
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I wouldn't worry about being received with hostility, but I recommend bringing a back up gun. Hope that answers your question.
__________________
Nihil Timedum Est "Stay in Awe of the experience of being human" Human Weapon System Course taught by D.A.M.N Accuracy is YES or NO Not A or B zone |
#276
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Where are you at in So. Cal? PM me 10X has CFS courses multiple times a month in So.Cal
__________________
Nihil Timedum Est "Stay in Awe of the experience of being human" Human Weapon System Course taught by D.A.M.N Accuracy is YES or NO Not A or B zone |
#277
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I got an emailed newsletter from ICE Training and it included the following:
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Their drills are bloodless battles, and their battles bloody drills. - Historian Josephus (AD 37-101) on the Roman military |
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