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  #1  
Old 08-12-2017, 9:00 PM
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Default Friend bought a "10 round" magazine, it's bigger. Any legal issues?

The title basically says it: a friend bought a magazine advertised as 10rd and it turns out it's 17rd.

Has he committed any crimes? I've read of it happening elsewhere too - some sites prohibit advertising magazines that hold over 10, so people advertise them as 10 when they aren't.
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Old 08-12-2017, 9:14 PM
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My understanding is that if he did not have them before the ban then receiving them, regardless of method, is illegal. If that is correct then legally he has to turn them in or he would be committing a crime.

I could be wrong. More learned members will be by shortly.

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Old 08-12-2017, 9:19 PM
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I had this happen years ago when I ordered a rifle. They sent a hi cap mag. This was when rebuild kits were being sold. FFL disassembled and I notified the seller.

I'd notify the seller, disassemble and get a block for it.
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Old 08-12-2017, 10:52 PM
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Officially, it is likely to be illegal, but he had no intent. He should block them to 10 or ship it back asap. Taking it apart makes it less obvious, but the DOJ has said a complete magazine in parts it still a magazine, so it would be a problem. He could bring it to a FFL who has a high capacity magazine permit, but he should check first as the FFL might not want to get involved, as well they need to log where it came from.
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Old 08-12-2017, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
Officially, it is likely to be illegal, but he had no intent. He should block them to 10 or ship it back asap. Taking it apart makes it less obvious, but the DOJ has said a complete magazine in parts it still a magazine, so it would be a problem. He could bring it to a FFL who has a high capacity magazine permit, but he should check first as the FFL might not want to get involved, as well they need to log where it came from.
Wouldn't shipping it back also constitute a crime?
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Old 08-12-2017, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Sapperforward View Post
My understanding is that if he did not have them before the ban then receiving them, regardless of method, is illegal. If that is correct then legally he has to turn them in or he would be committing a crime.

I could be wrong. More learned members will be by shortly.

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This is a crappy deal the more I think about it. Posessing it is illegal and it was sent to you. Maybe disassemble, cut up the mag body and send it all back to the seller?
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Old 08-12-2017, 10:59 PM
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Wouldn't shipping it back also constitute a crime?
No. Importing, selling, offering for sale, etc. is illegal, but not shipping and the DOJ does not seem to care if you sell them out of state. Possession is not illegal as long as the court order is in effect.
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Old 08-12-2017, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by NATEWA View Post
This is a crappy deal the more I think about it. Posessing it is illegal and it was sent to you. Maybe disassemble, cut up the mag body and send it all back to the seller?
Possession is not illegal as long as the court order is in effect.
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Old 08-12-2017, 11:11 PM
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Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
Possession is not illegal as long as the court order is in effect.
Ok - block it and notify seller.
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Old 08-12-2017, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
Possession is not illegal as long as the court order is in effect.
There was a ban before the most recent one. He didn't have them before it that ban. He is not grandfathered. The new ban (currently on a stay) bans the posesion of previously grandfathered 10+ round magazines. The stay only protects the grandfathered mags. Not anything acquired since 99 or 2000, when ever that first ban took place.

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Old 08-12-2017, 11:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Sapperforward View Post
There was a ban before the most recent one. He didn't have them before it that ban. He is not granfathered. The new ban (currently on a stay) bans the posesion of previously grandfathered 10+ round magazines. The stay only protects the grandfathered mags. Not anything acquired since 99.

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True, but possession is not currently illegal due to the court stay. They would have to prove he violated the law to get it. The magazines were not grandfathered. The law only made means of getting a magazine illegal.

There are exemptions in the law, although the DOJ gets bent out of shape if you ask about it. Read the law and the exemptions. Funny, in a way, but if you try it, it could cost a lot, even if you win.
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Old 08-12-2017, 11:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
True, but possession is not currently illegal due to the court stay. They would have to prove he violated the law to get it. The magazines were not grandfathered. The law only made means of getting a magazine illegal.

There are exemptions in the law, although the DOJ gets bent out of shape if you ask about it. Read the law and the exemptions. Funny, in a way, but if you try it, it could cost a lot, even if you win.
It is illegal if you acquired them after the 99 ban though. Regardless of the current stay. I agree the burdon of proof is on law enforcement but the OP admits he only just acquired them recently which puts him on the wrong side of the law. The current stay does nothing to change the previous ban of 99. The whole point of the new ban is to strip away the grandfathered magazines from the 99 ban and to get around the burden of proof issue proving when mags were obtained.

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Old 08-12-2017, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Sapperforward View Post
It is illegal if you acquired them after the 99 ban though. Regardless of the current stay. I agree the burdon of proof is on law enforcement but the OP admits he only just acquired them recently which puts him on the wrong side of the law. The current stay does nothing to change the previous ban of 99.

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No. It is only illegal if you acquired them in a means which was not exempt.

The new law, which is currently stayed, banned possession unless exempt. Again, possession is not currently illegal, due to the stay, but the previous law never banned possession.
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  #14  
Old 08-12-2017, 11:31 PM
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I disagree. Let's see how it shakes out when we get more attention on this in the morning. If I'm wrong I'll be the first to admit it but I feel pretty confident on this one.

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Old 08-12-2017, 11:35 PM
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I disagree. Let's see how it shakes out when we get more attention on this in the morning. If I'm wrong I'll be the first to admit it but I feel pretty confident on this one.

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Read the previous law. I have acquired magazines since 99 and it is legal because I am exempt. There are numerous exemptions, some of which are not used because the DOJ denies the law says what it does.

The new law bans possession, but that is stayed.
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Old 08-13-2017, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Sapperforward View Post
It is illegal if you acquired them after the 99 ban though. Regardless of the current stay. I agree the burdon of proof is on law enforcement but the OP admits he only just acquired them recently which puts him on the wrong side of the law. The current stay does nothing to change the previous ban of 99. The whole point of the new ban is to strip away the grandfathered magazines from the 99 ban and to get around the burden of proof issue proving when mags were obtained.

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until last month there was no law against possession, only import/manufacture/etc (and the law that was going to take effect July 1 isn't in effect pending court stuff)
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Old 08-13-2017, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Junkie View Post
until last month there was no law against possession, only import/manufacture/etc (and the law that was going to take effect July 1 isn't in effect pending court stuff)
That's how I understand it. OP just imported the mags. Op does not claim exempt status. He is illegal, right?


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Old 08-13-2017, 11:10 AM
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Read the previous law. I have acquired magazines since 99 and it is legal because I am exempt. There are numerous exemptions, some of which are not used because the DOJ denies the law says what it does.

The new law bans possession, but that is stayed.
Average citizens are not exempt though and I didn't hear the OP say he was exempt/Leo or what ever so it is illegal. I don't know why you even bring up exempt. Its obvious he is concerned. That should clue you in that he isnt one of the chosen special exempt people. The OP never claimed to be exempt. You're gunna confuse the guy and make him think he is exempt.

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Old 08-13-2017, 11:24 AM
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That's how I understand it. OP just imported the mags. Op does not claim exempt status. He is illegal, right?


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You made it sound like possession was illegal, it generally isn't even if you imported illegally.
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Old 08-13-2017, 11:33 AM
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So say I bought a box of crap at a yard sale way back before the ban & found a bunch of standard mags for a handgun in bottom of said box, but just tossed them back in the box, but still have them.

1.can I continue to keep them if there blocked to ten by me ?
or
2. have to turn them in, or destroy them ?

Not sure here.
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Old 08-13-2017, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapperforward View Post
Average citizens are not exempt though and I didn't hear the OP say he was exempt/Leo or what ever so it is illegal. I don't know why you even bring up exempt. Its obvious he is concerned. That should clue you in that he isnt one of the chosen special exempt people. The OP never claimed to be exempt. You're gunna confuse the guy and make him think he is exempt.
I am not a LEO. There are many exemptions. The problem is that you seem to think that possession is illegal, which it isn't and you are going to panic him with that. In order to be charged, they would have to determine what exactly he did and since he did not intentionally or knowingly order it and have it imported, there is a problem with intent. With that said, it still needs to be dealt with.
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Old 08-13-2017, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Dano3467 View Post
So say I bought a box of crap at a yard sale way back before the ban & found a bunch of standard mags for a handgun in bottom of said box, but just tossed them back in the box, but still have them.

1.can I continue to keep them if there blocked to ten by me ?
or
2. have to turn them in, or destroy them ?

Not sure here.
The law which bans possession is stayed. So until that is lifted, it is legal and nothing needs to be done if you possessed them prior to the magic date.

If the law is enforced, you would need to sell them, get them out of CA, turn them in, modify them to be limited to 10 rounds or destroy them.
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Old 08-13-2017, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
The law which bans possession is stayed. So until that is lifted, it is legal and nothing needs to be done if you possessed them prior to the magic date.

If the law is enforced, you would need to sell them, get them out of CA, turn them in or destroy them.
blocking them to 10 counts as destroying
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Old 08-13-2017, 12:10 PM
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blocking them to 10 counts as destroying
Not quite as it is not destroying the magazine, but converting it and it does solve the issue. Thanks, I forgot to add that option.
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Old 08-13-2017, 3:06 PM
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Dude did not break the law for unknowingly receiving the magazine, people are way too jumpy on this stuff.
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Old 08-13-2017, 3:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
Possession is not illegal as long as the court order is in effect.
Incorrect.

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Defendant Attorney General Xavier Becerra, and his officers, agents, servants, employees, and attorneys, and those persons in active concert or participation with him, and those duly sworn state peace officers and federal law enforcement officers who gain knowledge of this injunction order or know of the existence of this injunction order, are enjoined from implementing or enforcing California Penal Code sections 32310 (c) & (d), as enacted by Proposition 63, or from otherwise requiring persons to dispossess themselves of magazines able to hold more than 10 rounds lawfully acquired and possessed
Even if there was no intent, the magazine was not lawfully acquired and possessed. Nor was enforcement of subdivision 32310(a), which can result in a felony charge for importation or receiving a lcm. Ignore the last two sentences I originally wrote. (Hence the enforcement of 32310(b) against the OP would not be enjoined. It looks like he can be charged with an "infraction".) I don't believe anything was said about the OP's friend manufacturing anything or the use of a parts kit.

For more detail as to the OP's problem, see my response to Quiet's post #28.

That is the order on the preliminary injunction. I do not know that the USCA has or has not stayed the order.

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Old 08-13-2017, 7:04 PM
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IMO, he should stash them securely, keep his mouth shut, and wait until the outcome of the lawsuit. After that, he can decide what to do. Some of you are way, way overthinking this.
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Old 08-13-2017, 7:33 PM
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This is still in effect... (no Court order has been issued to stop it)

Starting 01-01-2000, any large capacity magazine not acquired through lawful means is considered an nuisance item and subject to confiscation/destruction. [PC 32390]
(This means... confiscation with no criminal charges.)

In practice, burden of proof that the large capacity magazine was lawfully acquired is on the possessor.
(This means... if you can't prove you legally obtained it, you won't get it back.)



Penal Code 32390
Except as provided in Article 2 (commencing with Section 32400) of this chapter and in Chapter 1 (commencing with Section 17700) of Division 2 of Title 2, any large-capacity magazine is a nuisance and is subject to Section 18010.

Penal Code 18010
(a) The Attorney General, district attorney, or city attorney may bring an action to enjoin the manufacture of, importation of, keeping for sale of, offering or exposing for sale, giving, lending, or possession of, any item that constitutes a nuisance under any of the following provisions:
(20) Section 32390, relating to a large-capacity magazine.
(b) These weapons shall be subject to confiscation and summary destruction whenever found within the state.
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Old 08-16-2017, 1:11 AM
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Quiet, What do you think about the fact that the guy didn't reject the lcm. Even if his original intent was to get a 10 rounder, the facts need to be fleshed out but it sounds as though he accepted what he received either face to face or by mail. Consequently, could he be found to intended to take receipt of the lcm?
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Old 08-16-2017, 2:54 AM
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When my friend ordered 10rd and got 25rd mags instead, he told the seller it's a wrong item, sent them back, got correct ones in a couple of days.

The beauty of victimless crime is that it's very hard to enforce.

Your friend will only break the law if he intends to keep it. Send it back (assuming it's an online transaction).
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Old 08-16-2017, 6:02 AM
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Posession isn't illegal, at least not yet.

You guys actually see how absurd this is?

"I am a first class citizen, The crown allows me extra rights."

"Well I am a second class citizen, and don't have the same rights you do."

We need more outrage.

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Old 08-16-2017, 6:25 AM
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Op's "friend" has technically not committed any crime. If I remember the CA law correctly he did not acquire this magazine in an illegal fashion and from what I recall INTENT still means something.

The question that can only be answered by the "friend" is whether or not he is willing to take the chance of keeping the "hi-cap" mag and possibly having to explain to LE how he came about acquiring it, blocking it, or sending it back to where he got it from for an exchange to a 10 rounder.
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Old 08-16-2017, 1:23 PM
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I bought a mag for my Beretta M9A1 from local shop. When I got it home and loaded it I realized is was a standard cap magazine. Nowhere on the packaging did it say how many rounds it held. I took it back to the shop and exchanged it for a 10 rd mag. It was a mistake when packaged, even the shop had no idea how they got a standard cap mag.

I could have kept it and shut up about it but didn't...
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Old 08-16-2017, 6:46 PM
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This is similar to receipt of stolen property. A passenger who exercises dominion and control over a stolen vehicle, after realizing that it is stolen, is in possession of stolen property PC 496(a). Taking possession is receiving.
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Old 08-16-2017, 7:00 PM
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This is similar to receipt of stolen property. A passenger who exercises dominion and control over a stolen vehicle, after realizing that it is stolen, is in possession of stolen property PC 496(a). Taking possession is receiving.
But "receiving" did not become a crime until the new laws were passed (and currently on hold)
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A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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  #36  
Old 08-16-2017, 7:26 PM
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Quiet Quiet is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
But "receiving" did not become a crime until the new laws were passed (and currently on hold)
The addition of "receiving", for large capacity magazines, went into effect on 01-01-2014.

It was included in the legislation that banned the importation, manufacture, and transfer of "large capacity magazine conversion kits".
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  #37  
Old 08-16-2017, 8:05 PM
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freonr22 freonr22 is offline
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On pof i contacted a 31 yo lady. We end up texting then she's almost 17 but it's ok

I said. What I contacted you about (bought) was 31 yo.

Sting setup

But I never tried to buy the 17 round mag
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We will win. We are right. We will never stop fighting.
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Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
They don't believe it's possible, but then Alison didn't believe there'd be 350K - 400K OLLs in CA either.
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Our fate is ours alone to decide as long as we remain armed heavily enough to dictate it.
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  #38  
Old 08-16-2017, 8:07 PM
alland alland is offline
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This is an eBay problem. They ban selling magazines with a capacity of over 10 rounds. So some sellers list anything and call them 10 round.
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  #39  
Old 08-16-2017, 8:19 PM
Gat Man Gat Man is offline
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Tell 'friend' not to post about it on the internet if he's concerned whether or not it's legal or illegal to receive or keep.
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  #40  
Old 08-16-2017, 8:54 PM
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He didn't post about it on the internet, he told me in person.

I haven't ordered any magazines in a while.
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A real live woman is more expensive than a fleshlight. Which would you rather have?
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