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Survival and Preparations Long and short term survival and 'prepping'.

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  #1  
Old 07-27-2017, 10:15 AM
DEFCON ZERO DEFCON ZERO is offline
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Default Now that we got a legit Hydrogen powered car.....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Clarity

I think its time to start thinking of off the grid SHTF, etc H2 production and bottling.

They are cracking H2 off of Natural Gas, which is OK, but what makes H2 niffy is you can use any extra electricity to split even filthy water into pure H2 and O2.

Stuff like bio-diesel or wood distillation require those materials, and some messy processing, and wood in particular has issues.

Seems to me a proper solar powered water spliter and H2 compressor would be a cool self contained zero-labor fuel producer.

It might take a while, but the inherent cleanliness of the process could make it low maintenance and run unattended 24/7 or whenever the sun shines.

I wonder what the costs would be for a setup that bottles H2 at the rate of 100 watts would be, to whatever pressure the Honda requires.

Then once you got H2 for the car you can start using it for other mundane tasks instead of NG.
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Old 07-27-2017, 10:35 AM
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Hydrogen is hard to contain. Its the smallest atom, and even H2, is small, so the hydrogen bleeds right through the walls of anything used to contain the compressed gas, which is the most efficient method of containment and transport. Until real-time generation is viable, this isn't going anywhere. Right now it takes more energy to create H2 than it gives back. Its the newest pipe dream for cheap energy.
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Old 07-27-2017, 11:09 AM
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Hydrogen is hard to contain. Its the smallest atom, and even H2, is small, so the hydrogen bleeds right through the walls of anything used to contain the compressed gas, which is the most efficient method of containment and transport. Until real-time generation is viable, this isn't going anywhere. Right now it takes more energy to create H2 than it gives back. Its the newest pipe dream for cheap energy.

I'm pretty sure He2 is far more slippery and leaky, due to its being noble. Its not a prob to contain it in cheap sheet metal canisters sold at Party stores. That is what I planning to use to contain some H2.

I hear liquid He can leak THROUGH Pyrex glassware because the Pyrex is layers, and that there is no such thing as solid He due to its slippery nature.
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  #4  
Old 07-27-2017, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by DEFCON ZERO View Post
I'm pretty sure He2 is far more slippery and leaky, due to its being noble. Its not a prob to contain it in cheap sheet metal canisters sold at Party stores. That is what I planning to use to contain some H2.

I hear liquid He can leak THROUGH Pyrex glassware because the Pyrex is layers, and that there is no such thing as solid He due to its slippery nature.
Its about molecule size and reactivity. To an H2 molecule, sheet steal looks like a sieve. We manufacture a crap ton of hydrogen creating Sodium Hypochlorite for water disinfection. It uses a stupid amount of energy to separate hydrogen from almost anything to start with. I'm talking hundred of amps to get the H20 broken apart because its such a strong bond. Then there's the concept of pH, or potential of Hydrogen. Hydrogen is incredibly reactive. It etches the exhaust piping and destroys flow switch mechanical components. The municipal entity we built this system for initially thought about capturing and storing it to use on city vehicles, but the cost of the specialized equipment necessary to compress the gas, combined with its inability to be readily contained over time made it a non starter.

Using helium as a guide for how hydrogen works isnt gong to fly. There's a reason they're on opposite ends of the periodic table.
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Old 07-27-2017, 11:26 AM
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Old 07-27-2017, 11:47 AM
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Oh Jesus H2 is difficult, and burns with a colorless flame to boot.

A solar-powered stand-alone H2 facility is something Jeff Bezos dreams of losing subsidized money on....
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Old 07-27-2017, 11:49 AM
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Bob lazzar was splitting h from h20 decades ago and storing it in tanks with an absorber. He only used solar.
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Old 07-27-2017, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by njineermike View Post
Its about molecule size and reactivity. To an H2 molecule, sheet steal looks like a sieve. We manufacture a crap ton of hydrogen creating Sodium Hypochlorite for water disinfection. It uses a stupid amount of energy to separate hydrogen from almost anything to start with. I'm talking hundred of amps to get the H20 broken apart because its such a strong bond. Then there's the concept of pH, or potential of Hydrogen. Hydrogen is incredibly reactive. It etches the exhaust piping and destroys flow switch mechanical components. The municipal entity we built this system for initially thought about capturing and storing it to use on city vehicles, but the cost of the specialized equipment necessary to compress the gas, combined with its inability to be readily contained over time made it a non starter.

Using helium as a guide for how hydrogen works isnt gong to fly. There's a reason they're on opposite ends of the periodic table.
Thats good info. I never thought of H2 as being corrosive type of "reactive", since it seems basically safe to handle as long as you don't light it, etc, and was used in airships. But I guess they didn't need perfect long term storage of highly compressed H2.

I thought molecules of about same (2 or 3 or 4 or 5) atoms tended to act about the same size particularly when a gas. Reason humid air with lighter H2O molecules is lighter than dry air with only N2 and O2. Like cars in traffic, a '66 Bug weighing 1700lbs takes up about same buffer zone as a loaded F-350 weighing 10,000lbs.

We did that little exercise in HS science where you invert two test tubes under water and put + and - and split some H2 and O2.

Isn't the fact that it TAKES so much juice the reason its used to GET so much juice?
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  #9  
Old 07-27-2017, 3:15 PM
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Thats good info. I never thought of H2 as being corrosive type of "reactive", since it seems basically safe to handle as long as you don't light it, etc, and was used in airships. But I guess they didn't need perfect long term storage of highly compressed H2.

I thought molecules of about same (2 or 3 or 4 or 5) atoms tended to act about the same size particularly when a gas. Reason humid air with lighter H2O molecules is lighter than dry air with only N2 and O2. Like cars in traffic, a '66 Bug weighing 1700lbs takes up about same buffer zone as a loaded F-350 weighing 10,000lbs.

We did that little exercise in HS science where you invert two test tubes under water and put + and - and split some H2 and O2.

Isn't the fact that it TAKES so much juice the reason its used to GET so much juice?
You don't get a lot at all compared to the energy required to break the bonds of the molecule once added to the difficulty in impressing it and moving it:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/phys.or...omy-doesnt.amp

Feel free to do your own research. In fact, do your own research. Start ^^ there.
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Old 07-27-2017, 10:39 PM
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I speculate that Toyota and Honda are experimenting with hydrogen fuel cells because they can't compete with the Tesla Giga battery factory. They chose not to invest heavily into that kind of battery technology. If they buy the batteries from Tesla, they help their competitor Tesla succeed.

The battery factory is ramping towards battery production capacity sufficient for 500,000 cars anually. To get the economy of scale cost savings Musk needs to max out the production capacity of that factory. Tesla will likely fall far short of their optimistic projections for model 3 sales leaving lots of idle capacity at the battery factory.

The Toyota Mirai, in addition to having the hydrogen fuel cell also has a small NiMH battery for capturing electricity from regenerative breaking. Perhaps it also buffers power output from the fuel cell. So that's my guess why they are experimenting with hydrogen cars.

Toyota and others are also working on improved "Solid-state batteries" that apparently have a greater energy density.
https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/...battery-design

I agree hydrogen has many expensive challenges and I think it's an intermediate technology that will be shelved as soon as better cheaper batteries are available.
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Old 07-27-2017, 11:11 PM
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My CNG car fills to 3,600-4,000 psi

What pressure does hydrogen need to be to run a fuel cell?
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Old 07-28-2017, 7:30 AM
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I think I read the Toyota Mirai can take up to 10,000psi. I don't think it's a metal matrix tank it's a pressure vessel of some sort. And the tanks are certified for 15 years.
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Old 07-28-2017, 7:32 AM
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Remember you two, it doesn't count if it's made in Mexico (yes I read all 5 pages of that god foresaken thread.)
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Old 07-28-2017, 7:43 AM
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Remember you two, it doesn't count if it's made in Mexico (yes I read all 5 pages of that god foresaken thread.)
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Old 08-04-2017, 6:47 PM
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Interesting new development:

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/r...192300980.html
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Old 08-12-2017, 6:22 PM
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Didn't Winnebago make a hydrogen powered motorhome? Back in 2008 or 2009.
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Old 08-13-2017, 10:11 AM
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I know I'm late to the thread, but isn't the FCX nearly 10 years old now? They even have special shell gas stations in northern CA to refill and drive it like a regular car as opposed to charging batteries for 8 hours.

Heck, i even remember building hydrogen fuel cell cars in shop class. It took a little solar panel and you had to allow electricity to produce hydrogen from distilled water.

If there's any chance at stopping the gasoline or diesel powered engines, it's hydrogen powered cars.
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Old 08-13-2017, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by njineermike View Post
You don't get a lot at all compared to the energy required to break the bonds of the molecule once added to the difficulty in impressing it and moving it:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/phys.or...omy-doesnt.amp

Feel free to do your own research. In fact, do your own research. Start ^^ there.
Yeah, I get it. Thing an actual FUEL like H2 VS a charged up battery is (in theory) if you can produce the fuel (off grid) you can stockpile it.

Another thing I'd like to see is a hybrid or full electric car battery that is easily remove&replace and/or that can easily be ganged. You should have the option of running one battery, or stacking 3 or 5 in the trunk or back seat (better balance), and it shouldn't take 2 huge guys to R&R.

IIRC the MOSTLY electric Chevy Volt (not Bolt) goes 60 miles on a charge, but lots of people would need more, and lots of people would also be able to leave it charging more than 24 hours.
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Old 08-13-2017, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by DEFCON ZERO View Post
Another thing I'd like to see is a hybrid or full electric car battery that is easily remove&replace and/or that can easily be ganged. You should have the option of running one battery, or stacking 3 or 5 in the trunk or back seat (better balance), and it shouldn't take 2 huge guys to R&R.
I see what you mean, have quick change batteries like you do for cordless drills, saws and most other power tools these days. The problem is most of the batteries for cars now are so large and heavy, you couldn't do it without a special setup or equipment. IIRC the entire under-tray of the tesla is the battery. You would almost need a special setup garage just to swap it out.

BUT, I still agree with you, once a manufacturer makes a car with a battery the size of a gas tank, a small lift-jack to raise and lower it and you'd have something going for the electric car. Even if it only got 60 miles, if you could swap batteries like a cordless drill it would be marketable. However, batteries are just heavy; theres no getting around current battery technology and its mass/volume.

Here's the tesla battery, the entire undertray of the car. Its large and heavy AND integral to the construction of the car for a couple hundred miles of travel.

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Old 08-13-2017, 12:05 PM
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Here's the tesla battery, the entire undertray of the car. Its large and heavy AND integral to the construction of the car for a couple hundred miles of travel.

Tesla is working on a drive thru battery swap.
Hydrogen is a fad/.gov/tax scam. There will never be enough stations to support real world usage. Also saw a Toyota hydrogen car with the perfect license plate HNDNBRG
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Old 08-13-2017, 12:31 PM
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They've been working on a battery swap for the last 5 years, I don't see it happening what with the debacle of their supercharger stations.

Hydrogen can work with similar infrastructure as gasoline stations; its a similar fillup process for the consumer, but it requires different holding tanks and pump equipment. Thats nothing new for gas stations; they always need the latest and safest pump handles for CA. As far as I know its not funded or subsidized by the government; even still, its the only realistic alternative to gasoline engine cars. You can fill up at the same rate as a gas tank, and keep driving. You cannot do that with current EV's, and i just don't see swappable batteries because that would kill most of the electric vehicle sales; the motors last 200k+ miles, but if you're essentially renting batteries, it would never make sense to replace the car.
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Old 08-14-2017, 1:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DEFCON ZERO View Post
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Clarity

I think its time to start thinking of off the grid SHTF, etc H2 production and bottling.

They are cracking H2 off of Natural Gas, which is OK, but what makes H2 niffy is you can use any extra electricity to split even filthy water into pure H2 and O2.

Stuff like bio-diesel or wood distillation require those materials, and some messy processing, and wood in particular has issues.

Seems to me a proper solar powered water spliter and H2 compressor would be a cool self contained zero-labor fuel producer.

It might take a while, but the inherent cleanliness of the process could make it low maintenance and run unattended 24/7 or whenever the sun shines.

I wonder what the costs would be for a setup that bottles H2 at the rate of 100 watts would be, to whatever pressure the Honda requires.

Then once you got H2 for the car you can start using it for other mundane tasks instead of NG.

It takes more energy to split the H2 from the O than you will get by recombining them during combustion.

If you are going to go a different route than carbon fuel the only option is to bury a cable under the roadway that carries some type of electrical current and have a coil or something in your vehicle to pick it up and use it, but I doubt the electrical power grid can handle it.



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Old 08-14-2017, 1:25 PM
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It takes more energy to split the H2 from the O than you will get by recombining them during combustion.
Going by the premise of "SHTF" there shouldn't be a reliance on a poewr grid. But he's right, a small solar panel will slowly trickle out hydrogen if you keep it supplied with water.

HHO generators on the other hand do seem to take a lot of electricity but it is a viable cutting torch if thats what you find yourself needing.
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Old 08-19-2017, 6:43 AM
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Originally Posted by OutlawStar View Post
Going by the premise of "SHTF" there shouldn't be a reliance on a power grid. But he's right, a small solar panel will slowly trickle out hydrogen if you keep it supplied with water.

HHO generators, on the other hand, do seem to take a lot of electricity but it is a viable cutting torch if that's what you find yourself needing.

For SHTF scenarios, Wood Gas would be a better option.

http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2010/...-gas-cars.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_gas

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_gas_generator


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