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Survival and Preparations Long and short term survival and 'prepping'.

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  #1  
Old 11-21-2018, 6:53 PM
WalterJones WalterJones is offline
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Default Bugout with roadblock

Was talking about random stuff with a friend that somehow turned in to a SHTF topic. So we end up talking about preps for bugging out.

Well a scenario came up and I thought I would run it past the CG collective to see how you guys would handle it.

Scenario:

Manmade or natural disaster forces you to bug out. You're making good time in your vehicle, no problems thus far. You're driving through a reservation, no other roads lead to your destination without taking you way out of your way, and/or possibly through dense population centers. So the rez is the most expedient rout.

You top a rise and see a hasty roadblock made up several vehicles blocking the road. The NA's are shaking down travelers for a "toll". Might be all or your stuff, might be just part of your stuff.

It's technically their land right? Even though the highway is Federally owned. But arguing about it at this point with the NA's in the scenario is moot.

Pay the toll?
Shoot your way through?
Turn around and put your family at risk of running out of fuel or going through a population center?

If everything blows over, would you be facing murder charges if you blasted your way through?

Last edited by WalterJones; 11-21-2018 at 7:00 PM..
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  #2  
Old 11-21-2018, 9:56 PM
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No matter who has set up the roadblock, do you suppose what you can see is all there is?

I don't think that would be true.

That looks like a serious problem. I have no solution.
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Old 11-21-2018, 10:01 PM
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Real world: you leave to go to town for groceries and upon your return you find a CHP roadblock of your mountain community. There is a forest fire and they won't let you in. Your dogs are still at the house and will be burned alive unless you can get there in time.

What do you do?

If I have a shotgun in my car................... **** Them
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Old 11-21-2018, 11:01 PM
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Any road block is designed to force people to stop, and not let anyone go until the purpose is achieved, if at all (this is the case whether it is a band of outlaws or a band of police). They are also almost always in a spot where you can't turn around and go a different way (unless they have that blocked off too), or easily go around.

If you blast through you are either dead, or you will have to kill the blockers - unless it is an all out zombie apocalypse there will be consequences for that.

The only way is to plan ahead. You could get an armored truck (there is a long list of pros and cons for this). You could carry lots of extra fuel to allow for changing routes. you could drive a off road vehicle allowing for going around blocks that were designed to prevent anyone going around. You could ride an off-road motorcycle. You will be way better off using planning and cunning to go away/around over facing this with violence.

For example with Unbekannt's scenario - if you try to blast through the roadblock you'll be on the 6 O'Clock news, if you brandish a shotgun you'll be dead. But if you just say "Oh, that's too bad, I guess we'll just have to go down the hill", but then once your out of sight you figure out a way to get up there anyway - 'cause I'm not leaving my dogs to die either.
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Old 11-22-2018, 6:50 AM
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Nobody is leaving a big city, your freeways will be parking lots.

Better to have already escaped years befor SHTF.

Better to bug in if you are stupid enough to be around when IT happens.
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Old 11-22-2018, 6:59 AM
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During the fire up here 3 years ago they closed the roads going to the ranch. We just took alternative routes to get in and out.

A makeshift roadblock with vehicles sounds like a shooting gallery to me.
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Old 11-22-2018, 8:17 AM
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With law and order still in place the last place I'm trying to nose through are bad neighborhoods and Indian reservations. Here in California they don't have a reputation like some midwestern locations but if there's a SHTF situation it'll be a very bad idea to send yourself let alone your family through potential hostile land.

Got a very good friend from Tulsa, I've heard some scary stories about the Creek nation and their feelings toward the non native. My best bud in AZ is Dine and the Navajo res he's from is okay with certain non natives and some other native peoples, lots of rivalries between the nations.

I'd go around, take extra fuel.
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Old 11-22-2018, 9:11 AM
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Interesting thought puzzle of "what if'.
I'll play along.

OP:
Question: Why are you bugging out alone without your team of multiple vehicles and friendlies in a convoy position? Safety in numbers.

Observation: When bugging out, I have multiple plans (A, B, C, and D) to my travel paths, so in theory, I would have a back-up plan in place with another route/bug out location.

I would turn around, take up a point of observation of the roadblock and see what develops and if there is a pattern to the roadblock. From there, I make a judgement call going forward on what do to. (Turn around and implement my back up plan(s) or wait it out and see what develops.) Who knows, maybe someone takes on the roadblock guns-a-blazing and neutralizes the threat.

Unless otherwise provoked, I would not engage a force of superior sized and equipment.

I agree with Librarian, I would not count on only those seen and not the ones unseen at the roadblock and act accordingly.


Best regards,
870classic.
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  #9  
Old 11-22-2018, 3:42 PM
WalterJones WalterJones is offline
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You guys have some great perspective and I'm glad I posted the scenario.

For a little more info, my buddy lives in Phoenix and his bugout location is at his mother's
home about 3 hours east under normal traffic conditions. The problem is the highway goes through the Apache reservation and there are simply no other options, just the sjngle highway. Which is why I asked him what he'd do if that highway were shut down?

He could go around by traveling through Tucson, but if he got out ahead of the stalled freeway conditions in Phoenix then he'd just hit the I-10 parking lot in Tucson. There's a couple of 4x4 trails that would work, but of course he doesn't own a 4x4 vehicle.

I'll take the bullet points from this discussion and point out to him these other things to consider.
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  #10  
Old 11-22-2018, 4:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unbekannt View Post
Real world: you leave to go to town for groceries and upon your return you find a CHP roadblock of your mountain community. There is a forest fire and they won't let you in. Your dogs are still at the house and will be burned alive unless you can get there in time.

What do you do?

If I have a shotgun in my car................... **** Them
Killing several people for dogs,,you fail.
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Old 11-22-2018, 9:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WalterJones View Post
Was talking about random stuff with a friend that somehow turned in to a SHTF topic. So we end up talking about preps for bugging out.

Well a scenario came up and I thought I would run it past the CG collective to see how you guys would handle it.

Scenario:

Manmade or natural disaster forces you to bug out. You're making good time in your vehicle, no problems thus far. You're driving through a reservation, no other roads lead to your destination without taking you way out of your way, and/or possibly through dense population centers. So the rez is the most expedient rout.

You top a rise and see a hasty roadblock made up several vehicles blocking the road. The NA's are shaking down travelers for a "toll". Might be all or your stuff, might be just part of your stuff.

It's technically their land right? Even though the highway is Federally owned. But arguing about it at this point with the NA's in the scenario is moot.

Pay the toll?
Shoot your way through?
Turn around and put your family at risk of running out of fuel or going through a population center?

If everything blows over, would you be facing murder charges if you blasted your way through?

never use main roads and use a motorcycle, preferably something like a off road 250cc
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Old 11-22-2018, 9:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rcslotcar View Post
Killing several people for dogs,,you fail.
Would you value this differently if it were your children? Many of us see our dogs as our children. If I ever have to choose between a non-family human and my dog - yep, I'll kill several people if I have to.

I still think (as I said earlier) challenging the roadblock would be less effective than being agreeable, getting all the information you can, and then sneak up the hill; but that has nothing to do with valuing human life vs dog life.

Everyone has their own value system and that's fine - it's like the trolley experiment: if the trolley is going to kill 3 people and you can change tracks but if you do it will kill one other person, do you consciously make the choice to kill one, or do nothing and three die? Now what if you know the 3 but not the one? What if it's 3 people you work with or your mom? Or to this point 3 sheriffs you don't know or your dog? As for me I'd choose to save my dog.
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Old 11-22-2018, 10:28 PM
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If and when I come around the bend during ML scenario and a HMMWV with mounted 50cal is sitting in the middle of the road, I can guarantee you I'm not jumping the shark.
Unmarked and no uni, I'll attempt to retreat before targeting.
-g
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Old 11-22-2018, 10:47 PM
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Interesting scenario,,,,,,,,,,,,,



.

I'll have to ask Rick Grimes his opinion, seems he has experience in these matters
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  #15  
Old 11-23-2018, 5:41 AM
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From what I've been told, not a good idea for non Native American people to go onto a reservation in the first place even if there is no disaster.

You would definitely be at their mercy and most likely they would take what you have and this goes for any non government controlled road block.
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Old 11-23-2018, 6:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WalterJones View Post
You're driving through a reservation, no other roads lead to your destination without taking you way out of your way, and/or possibly through dense population centers. So the rez is the most expedient rout.
If this is your best pre-planned bug out route to your pre-planned bug out destination maybe you should bug in place and cut your loses straight away.
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Old 11-23-2018, 6:20 AM
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There is a saying,

"If you find yourself in an ambush, its too late"
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Old 11-23-2018, 6:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1flhtk4me View Post
From what I've been told, not a good idea for non Native American people to go onto a reservation in the first place even if there is no disaster.

You would definitely be at their mercy and most likely they would take what you have and this goes for any non government controlled road block.

This^^^^^

From experience. They have their own laws and culture. And some tribes are still at war with the US government.
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Old 11-23-2018, 7:59 AM
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Native Americans have a history of getting screwed by the white man, It wouldn't be much of a surprise to see them take advantage of a bad situation. I'm not sure if I could blame them.
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Old 11-23-2018, 10:09 AM
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Given the OP's narrative I think the only winning strategy is not to play the game.
If you have family that's hours away the best thing you can do is prep them for an emergency duty jour. (Fires/floods/quakes)
For a RSR social breakdown have them keep quiet, get small, go dark and apply the golden rule defense.
Fingers crossed as always.

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Old 11-23-2018, 2:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckD View Post
Would you value this differently if it were your children? Many of us see our dogs as our children. If I ever have to choose between a non-family human and my dog - yep, I'll kill several people if I have to.

I still think (as I said earlier) challenging the roadblock would be less effective than being agreeable, getting all the information you can, and then sneak up the hill; but that has nothing to do with valuing human life vs dog life.

Everyone has their own value system and that's fine - it's like the trolley experiment: if the trolley is going to kill 3 people and you can change tracks but if you do it will kill one other person, do you consciously make the choice to kill one, or do nothing and three die? Now what if you know the 3 but not the one? What if it's 3 people you work with or your mom? Or to this point 3 sheriffs you don't know or your dog? As for me I'd choose to save my dog.
if you see dogs as your children, you fail at life.
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Old 11-23-2018, 2:52 PM
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Dress up like a whale and ask for directions to the casino?






I think roadblocks like you're describing are best avoided so turning around and going another way, if you have the gas to make it would be first. Then pulling over or backing up a bit and trying to gather with other drivers who are also trying to avoid the roadblock or even other drivers that you've notified about the roadblock and trying to group up so that all of you could go up to the road block at once if things come down to that. Because let's face it if there's no way to go back you're all going to run out of supplies.

And trying to run a roadblock of people with rifles who are not trained is going to end up in gunfire all over the place including your vehicle. You'll be busy driving so you won't be a good shot.


In fact this whole question reminds a little bit of a thread I started a long time ago about "What is your best gun if you have to be The Driver."

Pump shotguns are out because you can't work the action, Drive and tell your wife and kids to be quiet all at the same time.
In fact long guns in general might just be eliminated, if you are driving fast, hard or running roadblocks, unless you're just going to point them out the window and pray and semi automatic spray your ammo away.
Revolvers also might be more of a pain to reload because you're also using your hands to drive so, even if you have speed loaders ready to go.

But back to your question, if the roadblock toll is too high let's hope you thought about that and have the right gun and it's the right size for the job you might need it most in... Driving while shooting just to keep them from shooting you.

Last edited by sealocan; 11-23-2018 at 3:04 PM..
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  #23  
Old 11-23-2018, 3:16 PM
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Perhaps
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I've been saying that for years ...

There is no value at all complaining or analyzing or reading tea leaves to decide what these bills really mean or actually do; any bill with a chance to pass will be bad for gun owners.

The details only count after the Governor signs the bills.

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Old 11-23-2018, 8:13 PM
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If I could see a roadblock from far enough away I’d go around but I’ve got 4x4. I’ve never really thought about the reservation thing but maybe I should being one of my possible bug out locations is on a reservation
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Old 11-24-2018, 7:53 AM
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We only have one road and plans to drop a couple trees across the road at two locations if needed.

Not planning on patrolling the road blocks but just to keep the undetermined at bay.

Really no reason to be coming out this way in such times.

There are plenty of ways around if you know the unmarked and unmapped logging roads.
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Old 11-24-2018, 1:36 PM
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As long as there's been people, people have been getting screwed over by all forms of people...including like kind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kayaker View Post
Native Americans have a history of getting screwed by the white man, It wouldn't be much of a surprise to see them take advantage of a bad situation. I'm not sure if I could blame them.
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Old 11-24-2018, 3:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 19K View Post
if you see dogs as your children, you fail at life.
Well in that case please send me the full list of how I should live my life so that I can be judged a success by a nameless/faceless random person on the internet. Thank you so much for your valuable opinion, I am eager to comply . . .
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Old 11-24-2018, 4:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epaphroditus View Post
We only have one road and plans to drop a couple trees across the road at two locations if needed.

Not planning on patrolling the road blocks but just to keep the undetermined at bay.

Really no reason to be coming out this way in such times.

There are plenty of ways around if you know the unmarked and unmapped logging roads.
So what happens if you need to evac asap? Kinda screwing yourselves plus a blocked route may attract the wrong attention.
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Old 11-24-2018, 4:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epaphroditus View Post
There are plenty of ways around if you know the unmarked and unmapped logging roads.
Side question, if I may: if one just 'lives around there', that is, doesn't hunt, doesn't 4-wheel, pretty much just hangs out at one's house/property, goes to work and comes home (and thereby makes all the neighbors wonder why you live there, I guess), why would one "know the unmarked and unmapped logging roads"?
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I've been saying that for years ...

There is no value at all complaining or analyzing or reading tea leaves to decide what these bills really mean or actually do; any bill with a chance to pass will be bad for gun owners.

The details only count after the Governor signs the bills.

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Old 11-24-2018, 7:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unbekannt View Post
Real world: you leave to go to town for groceries and upon your return you find a CHP roadblock of your mountain community. There is a forest fire and they won't let you in. Your dogs are still at the house and will be burned alive unless you can get there in time.

What do you do?

If I have a shotgun in my car................... **** Them
You're going to kill CHP officers at a roadblock so you can go through in to a fire zone?
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Old 11-24-2018, 7:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckD View Post
If I ever have to choose between a non-family human and my dog - yep, I'll kill several people if I have to.
Classy.

Both quoted for posterity.
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Old 11-24-2018, 9:45 PM
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Shooting your way though a roadblock never works like it does in the movies.. there's not a lot on your car that actually stops bullets..

We have a Jeep, so we would find another way around.

The problem with a roadblock is intentions.. you don't know if they are just good-guys protecting their area from bad guys and will let you through or is they are the shake you down, take your stuff and off you into a ditch group.

So, if not seen you would be best off to find an overlook and glass the roadblock to see how they treat any other cars that roll up on it.

Shooting your way through it is absolutely the worst possible choice.
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Old 11-24-2018, 9:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spyder View Post
Classy.

Both quoted for posterity.
So you wouldn't use deadly force to protect a member of your family? I guess I'm glad you're not my family.

It is my duty to protect my family, to include my dogs, and I take that seriously. If you choose to not protect your family, to the point of taking a life if necessary, I guess that's your business. As long as you don't present a threat to my family - does the fact that I am willing to do whatever is necessary to protect them really bother you?
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Old 11-24-2018, 10:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckD View Post
So you wouldn't use deadly force to protect a member of your family? I guess I'm glad you're not my family.

It is my duty to protect my family, to include my dogs, and I take that seriously. If you choose to not protect your family, to the point of taking a life if necessary, I guess that's your business. As long as you don't present a threat to my family - does the fact that I am willing to do whatever is necessary to protect them really bother you?
I have dogs, really good dogs. In a pinch they will make a several good meals for my family if need be. They are not worth killing or dying over. My family takes care of their own just fine.

This discussion on road blocks is moot. You wait long enough to leave and road blocks are a problem, you are dead anyways. Road blocks work when you have people that are not armed and compliant, I don't see that happening. A bunch of guys in pickups blocking a road robbing people are going to get shot to hell pretty quick. A fortified bunker type of road block would be a tough nut to crack, but keeping one manned watered and fed is going to be a real challenge. Remember that their stuff isn't bullet proof either. Ever watch the military videos when they try to stop a suicide bomber in a car. Even with military weapons they fail to stop them all the time.

I think road closures will be the biggest problem. I know up here we only have to close 3 bridges to shut down the whole county. Armed strangers will be dealt with accordingly. If things ever get that bad I think you will see a lot of that.

Lets all pray that things never get that bad.
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Old 11-25-2018, 9:22 AM
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When it comes time for roadblocks no one is going to be keeping up their daily commute.

Trees are regularly falling blocking roads so one must always figure an alternate route.

There are a few commuter types but they are corrections or LEO, DOT, utility and the like - generally handy folk.

I don't know if anyone out here that doesnt hunt unless they are too old.

Otherwise when SHTF they're SOL. As many will be.
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Old 11-25-2018, 9:46 AM
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Any good roadblock is going to be not that easy to avoid.. back side of a rise.. with some others placed to stop you turning around (or stopping you if you do).

That said , I would avoid a roadblock at all cost, you are trusting the intentions of the people stopping you. They could be scoping out your stuff to be taken later on deeper in the reservation. Or just kill you there.

If you know the fastest/easiest way is through the reservation.. then start planning now to get through outside of the main freeway (true off-road not the “im driving a fire trail and calling it off-roading” type or back roads/trails), including Having to go slow and possibly camp out a day or two. Those supplies should be on hand anyways in a bug out situation. Luck favors the prepared.
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Old 11-25-2018, 9:58 AM
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Bugging out from Socal is not gonna happen. Unless you're just going to the local hills.
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Old 11-25-2018, 12:13 PM
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I would look at that as just a hazard. Similar to a bridge that was burned down or a road that was washed away and completely flooded. To engage a road block of outlaws would seem to be a military operation or LEO with plenty of resources. Would probably need a tank or heavy armored vehicle. Thought would not even cross my mind to engage on a personal level. Would need to consult Rick Grimes. Guess that would be a walking dead episode and probably would also need Dale and Merrill.

More realistic, it is an LEO road block for a natural disaster. For those who are needed, you need a marked unit in the front and back. Caravan through. No need to be in a disaster area, the key is to move to safe area. There was a shoot out in Butte county. They are not going to mess around.

I enjoyed seeing the sign "we have guns and a backhoe...keep out"...made me smile. Nothing worse than a looter who is taking advantage of people who just went through a traumatic event. I like it when people protect their property, as long as they are not nuts. (not a good idea in a firestorm though) Being a volunteer for search and rescue, the goal is to help them out and make sure they are ok. Relying on the government is a slow process, best prepare and take care of your self and family first. If you can help out others, that's great, in a large scale disaster, things move slow and are chaotic.

For post apocalyptic scenarios, my guess it would be in the following weeks or months when people are past the shock and in pure survival mode. Hopefully you have bugged out long before that.
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Old 11-25-2018, 6:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mopar Guy View Post
I would look at that as just a hazard. Similar to a bridge that was burned down or a road that was washed away and completely flooded. To engage a road block of outlaws would seem to be a military operation or LEO with plenty of resources..
Yea, no way I would risk that with family.. but ultimately roadblocks are failures waiting to happen.

What happens when someone starts sniping the roadblock from a distance out of the roadblocks range?

As said, roadblocks are fine for unarmed people control, not so much when there's resistance.

Best option is go around. Of course, nobody in SoCal urban areas are going anywhere in the parking lot that would come with a real disaster.. except maybe by air or sea (or possibly overland by off road vehicle)
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Old 11-25-2018, 8:08 PM
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The original question got me thinking about different ways to deal with this, and mostly on what to absolutely not do.

I think clearly the 1st and best option is to be alert and looking for roadblocks so you are not caught napping and have supplies that will give you options (extra fuel, off-road capability, etc) spot the roadblock while you are too far away for them to engage, turn around and find another way. Even if they do spot you and give chase - better to engage them at any other place than the place they chose to be their ideal ambush location.

But we all know that our ideal scenario is not always (if ever) the one that presents itself. We also don't know anything about the road blockers. If I were to set up a roadblock I would do it in a location where you couldn't see it until too late, it looks "official" (at least from a distance), its difficult to turn around, and there is no cover for the target to hide in. So, What do you do now?

I would say the one thing to not ever do is to stop exactly where they want you too and take predictable actions. You're going to have to make some very quick observations and some very quick decisions.

You really only have 3 options: 1) mash the accelerator, have your passengers duck, and prepare to return fire. 2) stop as quickly as possible, have everyone exit the vehicle, put the vehicle between you and the aggressors, keep weapons out of sight but ready - hope they don't have anyone hiding behind you (they probably do), and hope you can either negotiate or fight your way "off the X". 3) Slam the vehicle in reverse, back away as fast as you can and have your passengers prepare to return fire - either get away, get to cover, or fight a running battle (as above, bad as this may be it's better than trying to fight them where they want you too).

Other than steel plates to cover the tires and a bullet proof windshield, is there any way to prepare? Obviously a large SUV will provide more protection than a sedan. Maybe 4 cans of runflat/slime? Binoculars for the passenger/lookout? A push bar for the grill?
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