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  #1  
Old 08-17-2019, 2:41 PM
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Default Dealer Changed Price & Refuses to Cancel DROS

I was at a gun show today and was looking at this really rough rifle. It was missing alot of parts, didn't really have any collector's value left, and was reasonably priced at $25 as-is as a parts gun. I double checked with an employee that it was indeed $25 (pic of label below) as the label was not really that clear, and they confirmed it, because they had it for quite awhile and were unable to sell it at their previous asking prices ($225, then $125, now $25 just to get rid of it). I told them I'd go for it, and they called over the owner to begin the DROS process.

I filled out the 4473, and once they filed the DROS, that's when the owner tells me the total comes out to $150. I informed them that not only was their label unclear, but I also confirmed the price with an employee that their price was actually $25, plus the $25 DROS, which should make the total $50. The owner became irate and tore up the 4473, and told me he was just going to call the DOJ and tell them I refused to pay the DROS after I politely asked them to cancel the transaction. Very unprofessional, and not something I would expect a supposed renowned dealer to do. According to a couple other vendors, this particular seller has been known to do this in the past.

So now what I'd like to do is get in contact with the DOJ or any licensing authority to not only make sure that transaction is cancelled, but make sure no repercussions fall on me as a result of their actions (or inactions). Hopefully an FFL here can point me in the right direction.


This is probably a big misunderstanding, but very unprofessional on their part nonetheless. I am withholding the name of the FFL in the event that they contact me by or before Monday and resolve this in the professional manner I would expect of them.

8/20/2019 Update: Store has not made any attempt to contact me to make it right as of now. The dealer's name is Whitten Sales, in Garden Grove, CA.
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Last edited by Spectre1995; 08-20-2019 at 7:45 AM..
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  #2  
Old 08-17-2019, 2:51 PM
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Name please


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Old 08-17-2019, 2:52 PM
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If they tore up the 4473,and proceeded to do a dros, they are in a world of hurt... Legit...

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Old 08-17-2019, 3:31 PM
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They filed the information in the DOJ computer, then tore up the 4473 form after I called them out and asked them to cancel

As for the name, I'm giving them until Monday to contact me and make it right before I go public with their name
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Old 08-17-2019, 3:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Spectre1995 View Post
They filed the information in the DOJ computer, then tore up the 4473 form after I called them out and asked them to cancel



As for the name, I'm giving them until Monday to contact me and make it right before I go public with their name
They would shoot themselves in the foot if they did not immediately cancel that background check. They're going to have to eat the $25, there is no way the doj will refund it they wouldn't refund it for anything for us. If they don't cancel it and they just let it ride they can never deliver it and they'll get locked out of the system because you will never sign for the delivery. After 30 days when a background check is complete you must choose to deliver or cancel. If you do not as an FFL you will be locked out of the system which is a new regulation that just came down a few weeks ago. If in 30 days you do not hear from them then they canceled the background check because they would not be able to use their computer until they did

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  #6  
Old 08-17-2019, 4:07 PM
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Is there any risk to me as an individual in terms of my ability to purchase firearms in the future if they let it lapse without cancelling?

And would it be worth contacting the DOJ anyways to make certain it was cancelled?
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Old 08-17-2019, 4:18 PM
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2A, thanks for the information. Good to know.
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Old 08-17-2019, 5:46 PM
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He tore up the 4473, so he has nothing to back up his entry into the DROS system. You have him over a barrel.
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Old 08-17-2019, 6:04 PM
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you have nothing to worry about the doj is not going to penalize you especially if he does not have a contract with your signature it was his duty to collect money before submitting the dros
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Old 08-17-2019, 6:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spectre1995 View Post
Is there any risk to me as an individual in terms of my ability to purchase firearms in the future if they let it lapse without cancelling?

And would it be worth contacting the DOJ anyways to make certain it was cancelled?
No, they will just have to cancel the DROS, no recourse on the buyers part.
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Old 08-17-2019, 6:16 PM
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This is what the dealer sees before submitting your DROS

*I understand that upon final submission of my Pending Purchase(s), I will be billed and agree to pay a non-refundable transaction fee of $ 25.00 to the Department of Justice.[_] (after checking the box to accept the fee associated with the transaction, you will be able to add this DROS to your pending purchase(s) or print this preview)
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  #12  
Old 08-17-2019, 6:19 PM
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So I guess they just assumed I'd just roll with the $100 last minute increase, but didn't expect me to not play that game. And if they don't want to eat that $25 (which is ironically the listed price of the gun), they'll have to cancel it one way or another.

Glad to see I won't be affected in any way.
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Old 08-17-2019, 6:39 PM
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What it was is a miscommunication, they already ate the DROS by not selling you the gun. They can cancel it, but they already got charged.
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Old 08-17-2019, 6:40 PM
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Gotcha

Hopefully next time they won't try to pull that sort of move at the last minute
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Old 08-17-2019, 7:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobshouse View Post
He tore up the 4473, so he has nothing to back up his entry into the DROS system. You have him over a barrel.
You have no idea what youíre talking about
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Old 08-18-2019, 8:42 AM
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Taper, correct me if I am wrong, but you shouldn't submit for a NICS check (DROS) without having the customer fill out the 4473 first, isn't this the way ATF wants it done?
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Old 08-18-2019, 8:44 AM
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Also to the OP, did the DROS ever actually get submitted? As in you saw a DROS sheet with a DROS number and it says "pending" on it? Or was it a DROS worksheet and or a Preview DROS page?
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Old 08-18-2019, 9:06 AM
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They submitted the NICS check after I filled out the 4473. After submitting it is when they tried to change the price. When I questioned it, is when they tore up the 4473 and told me to get lost

I did for sure see the "pending" DROS on their laptop they had out. No printout, just the computer screen.
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Old 08-18-2019, 9:17 AM
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Interesting...
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Old 08-18-2019, 9:20 AM
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How so?

I'm actually genuinely curious about how this will (and should) play out given that I'm aiming to get an FFL someday.
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Old 08-18-2019, 9:46 AM
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Price says $1125, donít be so cheap!








Sarcasm
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Old 08-18-2019, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spectre1995 View Post
How so?

I'm actually genuinely curious about how this will (and should) play out given that I'm aiming to get an FFL someday.
Well, if you have a customer who has filled out a 4473 and then the DROS is cancelled at some point you are required to keep the 4473 and mark "cancelled" on it and file it away for 5 years. So if you had a dealer who did as the customer described its a no-no. He could have eaten the $25 DROS fee and cancelled it in the DES and then kept the paperwork according to state and federal law. But if he "ripped it up" then that's a big no-no.

This is why I asked did the thing ACTUALLY get submitted through the DES in this case there would be a big difference between it being submitted or not. If it had not actually been submitted through the DES its not that big a deal, the transaction never happened. But still its questionable. Its hard to make a judgement against the dealer when we've only heard the prospective from the customer. As with anything there's always 3 sides to a story ( his side, the dealers side, and what actually happened)

Either way I mean if something was misstated as far as pricing goes the dealer should have the chance to correct it and charge the appropriate price. Example if we make a typeo on our tag and that new Glock is out for $49.99 you should assume that there is a mistake on it as nobody would sell the new glock for $49.99 it should be $499.99. Now I know the OP said he asked, but still there's a human element to it and people make mistakes. If the dealer quoted the wrong amount he should have eaten the DROS fee (his penalty for his mistake) and cancelled it and filed appropriately. I can see how in the hecticness of a gun show somebody could have quickly glanced at that tag and say "yeah man $25" and moved on. Stuff happens.
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Old 08-18-2019, 5:25 PM
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2A & Ace, thanks for all the good info.

OP, please post the name if they donít contact you by tomorrow. Help us all avoid them.


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Old 08-18-2019, 5:34 PM
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Will do.

The owner claimed I tried to do this to him in the past, but we have absolutely no business relationship between us. I've seen the rifle before, checked it out, but never started a 4473 on it since back then it was significantly overpriced. This is what mainly leads me to believe it's a misunderstanding on their part, thinking I'm possibly someone else. Regardless, it's unprofessional.

I spoke with the ATF desk at the gun show and the agents there reiterated that there's no risk to me, and that destroying the 4473 was incredibly foolish on their part

They have until tomorrow to reach out to me and resolve this in a civil manner, otherwise I'll be posting their name publicly.
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Old 08-18-2019, 6:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taperxz View Post
You have no idea what youíre talking about
When you figure out what this thread is about, get back with us.
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Old 08-18-2019, 7:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobshouse View Post
When you figure out what this thread is about, get back with us.
Like I said, you have no clue! 4473 is not used to back up a DROS. They are completely separate and have no correlation to the actual background check until it’s been submitted and you have a response from CA DOJ

Last edited by taperxz; 08-18-2019 at 7:36 PM..
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Old 08-18-2019, 7:33 PM
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Quote:
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Taper, correct me if I am wrong, but you shouldn't submit for a NICS check (DROS) without having the customer fill out the 4473 first, isn't this the way ATF wants it done?
True! But it doesn’t validate the background check since you can’t approve, deny or cancel till you hear from CA DOJ with a response. (Edit. I will always keep and store 4473 when a person indicts themselves on the question list)

4473 asks for the specific response from the Feds or state entity. Right?

We don’t know if DROS was submitted or not and it probably wasn’t but I’d still never tear up a 4473 unless it wasn’t signed or if someone accidentally filled the wrong box like where it asks for county and they write in USA. I make them do another one

Last edited by taperxz; 08-18-2019 at 8:28 PM..
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Old 08-18-2019, 8:26 PM
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Quote:
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He tore up the 4473, so he has nothing to back up his entry into the DROS system. You have him over a barrel.
Please explain the relevancy of backing up a DROS with a 4473. More importantly, how does this have the FFL ďover a barrelĒ in regards to the consumer?

We will all wait right here for your answer to this unusual perspective.
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Old 08-18-2019, 8:49 PM
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Taper, I once told my ATF inspector that I thought Usa was a county in Norther California. She laughed so hard. She was like that’s a damn good response but you’re still wrong!
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Old 08-18-2019, 8:52 PM
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Tag for name, also think itís lame your keeping there make to yourself. Itís $25 eat it and share
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Old 08-19-2019, 8:33 AM
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Quote:
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Itís $25 eat it and share
I'm confused on your post here. Are you saying the customer had to eat the $25? Because that's not how the DES is set up. The dealer will be charged at the end of the month.

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also think itís lame your keeping there make to yourself.
I do not understand what you are saying here. Please clarify your comment so we can all understand.
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Old 08-20-2019, 7:43 AM
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Okay, it's been several days. No attempt to contact or make it right.

The dealer is Whitten Sales, in Garden Grove, CA. The individual that tore up the 4473 is Byron, the owner. I don't know the name of the employee I spoke to that verified the price on the tag.
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Old 09-20-2019, 7:04 PM
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When I look at the tag it looks to me as an attempt to price it at 125. Not a good or really legible attempt but I see it that way. The sales guy should have had to own up to that one since he confirmed it as 25. That is a huge bummer he wouldn’t back it up.
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Old 09-21-2019, 3:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Spectre1995 View Post
Okay, it's been several days. No attempt to contact or make it right.

The dealer is Whitten Sales, in Garden Grove, CA. The individual that tore up the 4473 is Byron, the owner. I don't know the name of the employee I spoke to that verified the price on the tag.
Leave them a negative review on yelp.
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Old 09-23-2019, 2:20 PM
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Quote:
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Please explain the relevancy of backing up a DROS with a 4473. More importantly, how does this have the FFL ďover a barrelĒ in regards to the consumer?

We will all wait right here for your answer to this unusual perspective.
The FFL is required to maintain their files, which includes any 4473's that have been rejected or denied.

The 4473 is signed by the purchaser at the time of the sale, and again when he receives the firearm. The Feds don't care about California DROS records. When they come and inspect, they ask for your log and all the 4473s.

Last edited by Bobshouse; 09-23-2019 at 2:26 PM..
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Old 09-23-2019, 2:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullets&Whitewalls View Post
When I look at the tag it looks to me as an attempt to price it at 125. Not a good or really legible attempt but I see it that way. The sales guy should have had to own up to that one since he confirmed it as 25. That is a huge bummer he wouldnít back it up.
Looks to me like it was priced at 225 once, and changed to 25 by scratching out the first 2. Really bad tag, whatever it was supposed to say.

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Old 09-23-2019, 2:40 PM
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Sorry, just saw this thread and realized auto correct got me. I think itís lame that the dealer is charging the $25, the dealer should eat the fee. I think itís also lame the OP is not sharing the dealers name, in essence using this forum to try and get the dealer to cave or OP will release their name.
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Old 09-23-2019, 2:48 PM
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The dealer didn't charge me the $25. I'm not out anything at all because I didn't have a chance to pay for anything before the dealer tore up the 4473. The dealer also had every opportunity to contact me and make it right before I went public with their name, as I assumed it was a misunderstanding and wanted to give them an opportunity to clear everything up, as a professional courtesy. Since they chose not to contact me, their name has been made publicly available (Whitten Sales, Garden Grove, CA) for those who scrolled past the original post.

Regardless, what's done is done. They still have not contacted me, and it's been past 30 days so I'm assuming they cancelled it.


What I'm curious about is whether or not they cancelled it, or left the firearm in my name, therefore registering it to me, and then selling it as a consignment? Is there anyone I can contact to see whether or not the transaction was cancelled?

I'm also curious to see where they're going to get another 4473 to back up in their files, since anything they have will not be original since it was torn up, and if they do have a paper copy, it will be with a forged signature.
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  #39  
Old 09-24-2019, 6:49 AM
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ugimports ugimports is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spectre1995 View Post
The dealer didn't charge me the $25. I'm not out anything at all because I didn't have a chance to pay for anything before the dealer tore up the 4473. The dealer also had every opportunity to contact me and make it right before I went public with their name, as I assumed it was a misunderstanding and wanted to give them an opportunity to clear everything up, as a professional courtesy. Since they chose not to contact me, their name has been made publicly available (Whitten Sales, Garden Grove, CA) for those who scrolled past the original post.

Regardless, what's done is done. They still have not contacted me, and it's been past 30 days so I'm assuming they cancelled it.


What I'm curious about is whether or not they cancelled it, or left the firearm in my name, therefore registering it to me, and then selling it as a consignment? Is there anyone I can contact to see whether or not the transaction was cancelled?

I'm also curious to see where they're going to get another 4473 to back up in their files, since anything they have will not be original since it was torn up, and if they do have a paper copy, it will be with a forged signature.
Nothing is registered to you unless you pick it up. Unless you believe they marked it as delivered and forged your signature on the pickup paperwork and consignment paperwork.

The 4473 issue will never be found out because as far as the ATF and the bound book is concerned the transaction never happened.
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  #40  
Old 09-24-2019, 7:31 PM
Jess B. Guy Jess B. Guy is offline
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If you are really concerned, fill out - Automated Firearms System (AFS) Request for Firearm Records (BOF 053). Minor pain in the butt, plus notarization fee, but it will tell you what DOJ has for your firearms records. Takes a while also. Be patient.
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