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National 2nd Amend. Political & Legal Discussion Discuss national gun rights and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 09-10-2019, 7:31 PM
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Default Joe Manchin: Most Gun Owners Support Bill to Expand Background Checks

Most gun owners support bill to expand background checks, Manchin says

Quote:
..."I can assure you the bill ... has over 85 percent approval and that's with gun owners and everyone else saying if you go to a commercial transaction, gun show, or on the Internet, don't you think you ought to know who wants to buy that gun and for what purpose and what their background is? That's all we're talking about," he said on "America's Newsroom."...

"I said, 'Mr. President, there's not a person I know in America who believes Donald Trump will infringe on their Second Amendment rights or take their guns away or allow a registry to happen.' We're not going to do that at all, none of us. Without his support, I don't think anything moves," said Manchin...
With Senate Republicans saying they are waiting for Trump to let them know what he will support and, now, with Manchin pointing to Trump, the strategy seems to be to impose new gun laws, then blame Trump when the NRA and other pro-gun people complain.

It's never been about creating a gun registry the moment they create universal background checks. It's about UBC being the mechanism they will utilize to create background checks. Any legislation passed now can be altered when Democrats regain control.

I'm always suspicious when even a moderate Democrat offers something claimed to be 'reasonable' and I do so get tired of Republicans 'compromising' in the interest of a greater purpose; i.e., not allowing Democrats to be elected. (See Texas Lt. Governor's rationale.) Either way, our rights continue to be whittled away.

Of course, given that Nancy Pelosi is 'visibly angry'... I guess the Senate is just going to have to do... something.

Then again, based on an USA Today poll that came out a couple of days ago...

Quote:
Lanae Erickson, senior vice president of Third Way, a center-left group that backs bipartisan gun control, calls support among Republicans for universal background checks "wide but not deep."

“It’s not a major priority for almost any Republican voter who supports it, and the minority who oppose it viciously hate the idea," she said. "That’s a strong incentive not to go out on a limb here, at least for the bulk of Republicans who can win with just their base."

Last edited by TrappedinCalifornia; 09-10-2019 at 7:42 PM..
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  #2  
Old 09-10-2019, 7:41 PM
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I can assure you he is full of bovine excrement.
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  #3  
Old 09-10-2019, 7:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Epaphroditus View Post
I can assure you he is full of bovine excrement.
They think they've got a poll that supports the claim and they're pushing it to the nth degree.

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Old 09-10-2019, 8:04 PM
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Out of all gun owners in the US?

He's probably correct in saying "most". You only need 51%. Plus almost all transactions require a check already for almost every transfer. Out side of a a minority of states that allow PPT without checks, how many does it really affect? Not many, hence most owners don't care. Remember, the vast majority of owners aren't in the NRA, State Associations, shooting hobbies, etc. This won't bother them.

Being as this is CA, it nominally doesn't affect us either. NOTE I said "nominally." based on our laws, inability to easily sell to a friends of relative, loan to people, etc.

Now if they start throwing a lot of additional requirements, I suspect that support will rapidly dwindle.

Or are a lot of owners thinking that checks just mean an MICS check and that they still won't have waiting periods, or that your check comes back in 3 days or it doesn't matter.

If "Background Checks" Means 10 day waiting periods, adding in extra requirements to the 4473, adding non-judicial inputs and nebulous mental holds or domestic violence or reported threats, then gunowners will not support them, and I doubt the Senate will.

Now, if they make it like most civilized states, I pass an immediate NICS check and I can leave with the gun here in CA, I bet almost all gunowners would support those checks.
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  #5  
Old 09-10-2019, 8:34 PM
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Utah gun owners support less gun control. Guns here are a matter of fact..
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  #6  
Old 09-10-2019, 8:36 PM
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That 85% statistic with GOP is bull****. Once you explain to people what universal background checks are those numbers drop drastically. I think 60% of Americans supporting background checks is a pretty reasonable number to assume. Pollsters ask super broad questions with no explanation of what they are asking and then report the results as factual. Fake as hell.

Trump signs universal background checks and he will lose 2020. Simple as that.
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Old 09-10-2019, 8:57 PM
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What happened to "the only poll that counts is the one on elections day"? And on election day in WA, NV, ME and a few other states when UBC was on the ballot the end result was about a 50 - 50 split. Are we supposed to believe that the +35% of people who support UBC decided to stay home and all those opposed just happened to vote?

The "85% support" ruse is ample and demonstrable evidence that the anti-gunners deliberately distract and deceive. Using it proves they can't make the case honestly. It's the political equivalent of Ted Kennedy's "I took a wrong turn" and those of us familiar with the landscape know the lie.
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Old 09-11-2019, 3:06 PM
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It appears the background check legislation has gained enough support from GOP to become a law, when combined with DEM. Also, Trump will unlikely veto it.
I also understand no poison pill (like CCW reciprocity) will be added to this legislation this time.
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  #9  
Old 09-11-2019, 3:09 PM
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They say it enough times and eventually many believe it as fact.

How many here have participated in any poll? I certainly haven’t been asked, nor has anyone I know.

“Common sense” ain’t so common...
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  #10  
Old 09-11-2019, 3:36 PM
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Originally Posted by riderr View Post
It appears the background check legislation has gained enough support from GOP to become a law, when combined with DEM. Also, Trump will unlikely veto it.
I also understand no poison pill (like CCW reciprocity) will be added to this legislation this time.
someone should add "abolishment of the NFA" to the UBC bill.

that should kill off UBC real quick.
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  #11  
Old 09-11-2019, 3:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Scratch705 View Post
someone should add "abolishment of the NFA" to the UBC bill.

that should kill off UBC real quick.
I doubt GOP will introduce any poison pill to the bill. Dems will go hysterical on this. GOP really wants to calm down the wave before the election year
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Old 09-11-2019, 3:43 PM
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I grew up in the same small W.Va town Manchin is from and I can assure you that he is a fraud of the first order. Apparently he had zero credible opposition for the office and that and his money is how he managed to get elected.

Insofar as his home town constituency goes I can also assure you that if there is any support for 'gun control'. the figures would be somewhere in the negative numericals.

West Virginians took back their right to arms after over seventy years of oppressive legislation that for all purposes forbade any carry of sidearms.........even for hunting or casual target practice........something that grew out of the coal mine wars of the 1920's...........Those laws actually make current Cal. carry laws look good..............The State of West Virginia is today constitutional carry, and one sure way to get unelected is to advocate gun control................hopefully that is Manchin's fate.

Last edited by dogrunner; 09-11-2019 at 3:45 PM..
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  #13  
Old 09-11-2019, 5:22 PM
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polls like this are why we are a republic and not a democracy. keeps idiot majority from screwing themselves over.
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  #14  
Old 09-11-2019, 9:10 PM
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Quote:
if you go to a commercial transaction, gun show, or on the Internet, don't you think you ought to know who wants to buy that gun and for what purpose and what their background is?
Out here, the only question dealers ask is if I have a CWP. If not, they do a quick NICS check to make sure I'm not a prohibited person. They never ask what I want to use the gun for and what my background is. Anybody who wants to ask that can **** off since it's none of their damn business.

Private party sales are legal here in Utah without FFL intervention, and generally the only thing most sellers want to see is a valid CWP, which proves the buyer has passed a criminal background check already. Again, they don't need to know anything else.

So no Mr D-bag, I don't think sellers "ought to know" jack **** about the buyers as long as they meet the legal requirements to buy a gun in their state of residence.

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  #15  
Old 09-12-2019, 11:01 AM
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Unless you break through the 'privacy' laws surrounding mental health records and include them in any background check, what's the point of it all?

In fact, none. No UBC of any kind is going to stop crime and criminals, so what's the point of that either?
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Old 09-12-2019, 11:12 AM
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Even if the poll is correct, UBC is still wrong and useless.
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  #17  
Old 09-12-2019, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_Eastvale View Post
Utah gun owners support less gun control. Guns here are a matter of fact..
Yes, and the entire state of UT has the same population as OC. Big deal. If you got EVERY voter in the states of UT, MT and ID TOGETHER they'd still be outnumbered by LA county 2 to 1.
PEOPLE vote. LAND doesn't
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Old 09-12-2019, 1:51 PM
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Originally Posted by CAL.BAR View Post
Yes, and the entire state of UT has the same population as OC. Big deal. If you got EVERY voter in the states of UT, MT and ID TOGETHER they'd still be outnumbered by LA county 2 to 1.
PEOPLE vote. LAND doesn't
Thankfully, founders of this country understood the danger of such a populist view.

Land does vote in US.
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Old 09-12-2019, 1:53 PM
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Originally Posted by MrFancyPants View Post
Private party sales are legal here in Utah without FFL intervention, and generally the only thing most sellers want to see is a valid CWP, which proves the buyer has passed a criminal background check already. Again, they don't need to know anything else.
That is a UBC right there, voluntary enforced.
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Old 09-12-2019, 1:55 PM
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  #21  
Old 09-12-2019, 2:14 PM
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Originally Posted by CAL.BAR View Post
Yes, and the entire state of UT has the same population as OC. Big deal. If you got EVERY voter in the states of UT, MT and ID TOGETHER they'd still be outnumbered by LA county 2 to 1.

PEOPLE vote. LAND doesn't
So what is your point? The only thing your stats prove is OC and LA county are overcrowded ****holes. Or are you with the Hitlery crowd and saying to hell with the electoral college? Fortunately for us the founding fathers had infinitely more wisdom than you ever will.

The fact that UT has 10% of the population of CA is one of the main reasons we moved here, to get away from you idiots.

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  #22  
Old 09-12-2019, 2:49 PM
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Originally Posted by PaDanby View Post
Now, if they make it like most civilized states, I pass an immediate NICS check and I can leave with the gun here
in CA, I bet almost all gunowners would support those checks.
NO! Background checks don't do ****. FACT! I don't support them on principle.

Recently here in SoCal, some guy was arrested for rape he committed decades ago. His sister did 23 and me. Cops hit his familial DNA and was arrested. Guess what he did for a living all those years? Teacher. Schools have....yup, background checks.

Thousands of stories like this. BG is a snapshot in time. You're good, until your not.
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Old 09-12-2019, 11:31 PM
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So you wouldn't trade what we have now for a national standard check? Pass the NICS and leave with the gun? You like the10 Day waiting period? or the one gun every 30 Days rules?

What are the realistic chances that a standard national check is worse than or better than what we have in CA now??
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Old 09-12-2019, 11:55 PM
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Originally Posted by PaDanby View Post
What are the realistic chances that a standard national check is worse than... what we have in CA now??
Actually, there is very real potential for it being much, much worse. It's the proverbial camel's nose under the tent.
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Old 09-13-2019, 12:55 AM
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Polls done by USA today.
I call bul****.....
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Old 09-13-2019, 9:14 AM
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Aren't these the same polling outfits that predicted Hillary would be president?
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Old 09-13-2019, 9:34 AM
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Where are these polling locations? I have never seen gun legislation opinion polls for the general population, much less gun owners...
Neither here in Utah or in California...

Where are these "gun owners"?
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Old 09-13-2019, 10:11 AM
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I have never been asked about my views. So for the record. "Shall Not be Infringed"!!! No gun restrictions at all! To be clear.
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Old 09-13-2019, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaDanby View Post
So you wouldn't trade what we have now for a national standard check? Pass the NICS and leave with the gun? You like the10 Day waiting period? or the one gun every 30 Days rules?

What are the realistic chances that a standard national check is worse than or better than what we have in CA now??
The chances are huge it will be worse in my state. We don't need to give up any freedoms in free states, so you can try and claw back what you have already lost.

Besides CA will never let you leave with the gun no matter what other laws pass.
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Old 09-13-2019, 10:28 AM
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The National Instant Criminal Background Check System, or NICS, is all about saving lives and protecting people from harm—by not letting guns fall into the wrong hands. It also ensures the timely transfer of firearms to eligible gun buyers.

Mandated by the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act of 1993 and launched by the FBI on November 30, 1998, NICS is used by Federal Firearms Licensees (FFLs) to instantly determine whether a prospective buyer is eligible to buy firearms. Before ringing up the sale, cashiers call in a check to the FBI or to other designated agencies to ensure that each customer does not have a criminal record or isn’t otherwise ineligible to make a purchase. More than 230 million such checks have been made, leading to more than 1.3 million denials.

NICS is located at the FBI’s Criminal Justice Information Services Division in Clarksburg, West Virginia. It provides full service to FFLs in 30 states, five U.S. territories, and the District of Columbia. Upon completion of the required Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) Form 4473, FFLs contact the NICS Section via a toll-free telephone number or electronically on the Internet through the NICS E-Check System to request a background check with the descriptive information provided on the ATF Form 4473. NICS is customarily available 17 hours a day, seven days a week, including holidays (except for Christmas). I thought that we already did this with Form 4473 in California and the 10-day waiting period...

Last edited by TOMBSTONE; 09-13-2019 at 10:31 AM..
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Old 09-13-2019, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by riderr View Post
Dems will go hysterical on this.
They are already hysterical.

How about
""Do you support offering federal incentives for states to pass "red flag" or "extreme risk" laws that allow courts to temporarily take Medical Marijuana Cards away from people suspected of being a danger to the public or themselves?

How about some incentives for open and conceled carry?
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Old 09-13-2019, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaDanby View Post
So you wouldn't trade what we have now for a national standard check? Pass the NICS and leave with the gun? You like the10 Day waiting period? or the one gun every 30 Days rules?

What are the realistic chances that a standard national check is worse than or better than what we have in CA now??
No. I would not like it if we Californians got it ďeasierĒ at the expense of the good folk in other states who now have it less bad than us. Nope, not at all. We need less government, not more.


Iím 100% against background checks, lists, registries, etc. I donít even see the point of showing ID. Canít those be faked pretty easily?

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Old 09-13-2019, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Lifeisgood View Post
They are already hysterical.

How about
""Do you support offering federal incentives for states to pass "red flag" or "extreme risk" laws that allow courts to temporarily take Medical Marijuana Cards away from people suspected of being a danger to the public or themselves?

How about some incentives for open and conceled carry?
Shhhhhh. You won't last long if you say it out loud in San Diego
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Old 09-13-2019, 1:58 PM
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Originally Posted by TOMBSTONE View Post


The National Instant Criminal Background Check System, or NICS, is all about saving lives and protecting people from harmóby not letting guns fall into the wrong hands. It also ensures the timely transfer of firearms to eligible gun buyers.

Mandated by the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act of 1993 and launched by the FBI on November 30, 1998, NICS is used by Federal Firearms Licensees (FFLs) to instantly determine whether a prospective buyer is eligible to buy firearms. Before ringing up the sale, cashiers call in a check to the FBI or to other designated agencies to ensure that each customer does not have a criminal record or isnít otherwise ineligible to make a purchase. More than 230 million such checks have been made, leading to more than 1.3 million denials.

NICS is located at the FBIís Criminal Justice Information Services Division in Clarksburg, West Virginia. It provides full service to FFLs in 30 states, five U.S. territories, and the District of Columbia. Upon completion of the required Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) Form 4473, FFLs contact the NICS Section via a toll-free telephone number or electronically on the Internet through the NICS E-Check System to request a background check with the descriptive information provided on the ATF Form 4473. NICS is customarily available 17 hours a day, seven days a week, including holidays (except for Christmas). I thought that we already did this with Form 4473 in California and the 10-day waiting period...

Yeah, works like a dream in Chicago and points in all directions therefrom!

The fact is that after some version of their current desire succeeds in passing, and also fails, we'll be off to the next dog and pony show of even more draconian regulations.

Besides, why are you shilling for the FBI?
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Old 09-13-2019, 6:24 PM
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Originally Posted by PaDanby View Post
...Now, if they make it like most civilized states, I pass an immediate NICS check and I can leave with the gun here in CA, I bet almost all gunowners would support those checks.
The states we moved to 30 or so years ago are definitely "civilized", and in many ways far more "civilized" than California.

You are completely incorrect in thinking that "almost all" gun owners in free states will support pre-purchase background checks.


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Originally Posted by Widdle View Post
No. I would not like it if we Californians got it “easier” at the expense of the good folk in other states who now have it less bad than us. Nope, not at all. We need less government, not more.

I’m 100% against background checks, lists, registries, etc. I don’t even see the point of showing ID. Can’t those be faked pretty easily?

Thumb print...yay, thanks for letting me do some finger painting, mom!
Widdle, that's a refreshing response coming from California...nice work. Many here feel it's OK to screw free states with more firearms legal "requirements", thinking they'll get something in return if they do. Perfect examples are 2 polls here prior to FBHO's presidential elections...~ half of those responding said they'd trade mandatory background checks for the country in return for CWL reciprocity. Definitely stupid as CWL's currently are a states' right issue.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_Eastvale View Post
Utah gun owners support less gun control. Guns here are a matter of fact..
Same in Idaho...current Idaho law prohibits state and local pd's from enforcing federal gun laws.

Idaho can get a couple thousand gun owners (with guns) to show up on the Capitol steps to present their views. Not only that, they tend to show up at the polls and vote. Compare that to California.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PaDanby View Post
So you wouldn't trade what we have now for a national standard check? Pass the NICS and leave with the gun? You like the10 Day waiting period? or the one gun every 30 Days rules?

What are the realistic chances that a standard national check is worse than or better than what we have in CA now??
I would not trade what I have now for a national background check, and why should I? No waiting period and no limit on guns per day, week, month, or year. Why would I want to give that up?


Quote:
Originally Posted by madjack956 View Post
The chances are huge it will be worse in my state. We don't need to give up any freedoms in free states, so you can try and claw back what you have already lost.

Besides CA will never let you leave with the gun no matter what other laws pass.
^^^ /Thread...not to mention nonsensical thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dogrunner View Post
Yeah, works like a dream in Chicago and points in all directions therefrom!

The fact is that after some version of their current desire succeeds in passing, and also fails, we'll be off to the next dog and pony show of even more draconian regulations.

Besides, why are you shilling for the FBI?
The fact remains that criminals know where to buy guns off the beaten / "legal" path.

Given that DOJ estimates only 10% of "assault" weapons were registered in the last two registration period, what makes you think that the same percentage, or close to it, thinks the same about non-"assault" long guns, or for that matter, handguns.?
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Last edited by -hanko; 09-13-2019 at 9:15 PM..
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  #36  
Old 09-13-2019, 6:54 PM
big red big red is offline
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Personally up until now the feds were never a problem to me. Only the state of california. Fortunately the one time I had an issue of having an ex-on paper felon living with me and I was a 003 FL collector it was the feds that told the county and state people to muzzle it and they would run the inspection and questioning. they listened, checked my records, weapons, made a suggestion or two, and told everyone it was good. the county and state wanted to take all the weapons including black powder and put me in jail overnight. All i could say was that was one fed i would not want to piss off. when he said it was good he meant it. the only bad feelings i have are for the county and state. the fed just told us good night and even apologized for the late hour.
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  #37  
Old 09-13-2019, 6:58 PM
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Widdle Widdle is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -hanko View Post
Widdle, that's a refreshing response coming from California...nice work. Many here feel it's OK to screw free states with more firearms legal "requirements", thinking they'll get something in return if they do. Perfect examples are 2 polls here prior to FBHO's presidential elections...~ half of those responding said they'd trade mandatory background checks for the country in return for CWL reciprocity. Definitely stupid as CWL's currently are a states' right issue.
I remember that poll. Heck, I remember cash-n-carrying Mausers, oh so long ago.
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  #38  
Old 09-13-2019, 7:03 PM
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Never trade "rights". always fight to get more not less and to expand the second amendment. the government wants to blame all gun owners because the government cannot control the few percent (criminals and those that sell to them). the government is failing at it's job and the gun owners are not unless they are in league with criminals. Yet we pay the taxes called fees for the right to own private property. we live under a bigger parole system than ex-felons.
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Old 09-13-2019, 8:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dogrunner View Post
Yeah, works like a dream in Chicago and points in all directions therefrom!

The fact is that after some version of their current desire succeeds in passing, and also fails, we'll be off to the next dog and pony show of even more draconian regulations.

Besides, why are you shilling for the FBI?
I'm not shilling for the FBI by no means , just quoting what was on the interweb...
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  #40  
Old 09-13-2019, 9:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaDanby View Post
Out of all gun owners in the US?

He's probably correct in saying "most". You only need 51%. Plus almost all transactions require a check already for almost every transfer. Out side of a a minority of states that allow PPT without checks, how many does it really affect? Not many, hence most owners don't care. Remember, the vast majority of owners aren't in the NRA, State Associations, shooting hobbies, etc. This won't bother them.

Being as this is CA, it nominally doesn't affect us either. NOTE I said "nominally." based on our laws, inability to easily sell to a friends of relative, loan to people, etc.

Now if they start throwing a lot of additional requirements, I suspect that support will rapidly dwindle.

Or are a lot of owners thinking that checks just mean an MICS check and that they still won't have waiting periods, or that your check comes back in 3 days or it doesn't matter.

If "Background Checks" Means 10 day waiting periods, adding in extra requirements to the 4473, adding non-judicial inputs and nebulous mental holds or domestic violence or reported threats, then gunowners will not support them, and I doubt the Senate will.

Now, if they make it like most civilized states, I pass an immediate NICS check and I can leave with the gun here in CA, I bet almost all gunowners would support those checks.
Having spent (and continuing to) a fair amount of time in those "free states" I can state with certainty that is not true. Believe it or not, in most states the practice of lending, selling or transferring "person to person" is alive and well. They have no desire to see things change. And one of those changes under UBC would be a prohibition on 18 to 20 year olds, including present and former service members defending our country, from legally acquiring a handgun for self-defense in the home, a basic tenet of Heller. No one should be happy to see that happen.
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