Mosin vs Mauser Shootout

[SKSer45]

PAUL!! where you been!? Thought you were dead? Where do you stand on this epic debate?

[The Right to Bear Arms]

Originally Posted by SKSer45

hahah bear. To bad Mauser bays are size 8

hahaha,

SKSer45, surely a Calgunner with your credentials knows that the Yugo PAP M59/66 A1 is a bit longer than most other SKS variants.

Miss Hapa will be quite pleased with the Gas Piston action of my rifle. haha.

Good Luck, man. I wish you well as a fellow SKS man but I'm going with the 91/30 gang in the end.

Stalingrad !!!!! Comrades, dispatch the haughty teutonic warriors with haste.

RBA

[SKSer45]

Originally Posted by The Right to Bear Arms

hahaha,

SKSer45, surely a Calgunner with your credentials knows that the Yugo PAP M59/66 A1 is a bit longer than most other SKS variants.

Miss Hapa will be quite pleased with the Gas Piston action of my rifle. haha.

Good Luck, man. I wish you well as a fellow SKS man but I'm going with the 91/30 gang in the end.

Stalingrad !!!!! Comrades, dispatch the haughty teutonic warriors with haste.

RBA

Poor Bear, we could have been friends with our taste in Hapas. Not only do you like Yugo m59/66 A1 you think 91/30 is going to win. To bad

[Cessnapilot89]

I enjoy my k98 more than shooting the Russian Mosins, though Finns are just flat out amazing. In this discussion though, I am going Team SVT.

[Pthfndr]

Originally Posted by SKSer45

No Josh it can't because a 28/76 is a highly accurate rifle designed for matches/comp.

A 28/76 is nothing more than a issue 28/30, with target sights, installed into a bedded target stock. Still just a regular Mosin action and barrel.

I use RL15, but only because that's what I use for everything with a .30 cal bullet. Haven't really tried any other powders. 4064 should work well also.

[SKSer45]

Originally Posted by Pthfndr

A 28/76 is nothing more than a issue 28/30, with target sights, installed into a bedded target stock. Still just a regular Mosin action and barrel.

I use RL15, but only because that's what I use for everything with a .30 cal bullet. Haven't really tried any other powders. 4064 should work well also.

well if he can do that with an issued 28/30 then chalk one up for the Mosin Team.

Same for some altered mauser right?

[Howie44]

I'm going to shoot my targets for this in the morning in between trying to run the Burro monthly shoot. After I post what my Finns can do, I fear Skser will be making excuses for why his mausers can't participate. It will be fun to shoot several 70+ year old rifles that can still do MOA or better with surplus ammo.

[The Right to Bear Arms]

Originally Posted by SKSer45

Poor Bear, we could have been friends with our taste in Hapas. Not only do you like Yugo m59/66 A1 you think 91/30 is going to win. To bad

You're right, SKS. That is too bad. For you I mean. See, I'm next to UCI so Hapas are coming out of the walls here. haha. Tell you what bro. Win, Lose or Draw, you bring your credit cards and I'll bring my god given charisma and we'll draw the Goddess like Hapas into the C&R world, so to speak. haha.

Good Luck on the competition, SKSer45. As a realist, I'm compelled to be objective.

If the shoot was based on build quality and safety, I'd give you the edge. However, it's a shooting competition and for every Mauser sharpshooter you can bet there's a couple 91/30 shots motivated to get on the line with you.

If Team Mauser has the better shots then you will win. Tall order though, mein freund. Sheer numbers alone say that just getting word out to Team Mosin will overwhelm the Germans.

Everyone's going to have Fun with this !

R

ps. Bro, it's the classic question. Quality v. Quantity. If Quantity has more sniper talent then it's gonna be a long drive back to Germany. haha.

[SKSer45]

Originally Posted by Howie44

I'm going to shoot my targets for this in the morning in between trying to run the Burro monthly shoot. After I post what my Finns can do, I fear Skser will be making excuses for why his mausers can't participate. It will be fun to shoot several 70+ year old rifles that can still do MOA or better with surplus ammo.

hahah yeah lets see how that Army training goes along with those finns. Its ok to punch wholes in your target with a ink stick

@ bear. OOO yes I know about the UCI hapas. When I visited campus...woooweeee. It literally was a coin flip between CSULB and UCI

[Howie44]

Haha! We shall see. And with that Army training, I bet I have A LOT more expert quals on my DD214 than you have with your Marine one (sorry, couldn't help it, but the Marines will take anybody)

[Howie44]

Let's make it interesting. I'm taking my 9yr old DAUGHTER to her first range trip tomorrow. I'll give her a little BRM class, and let her shoot a group. Wanna bet she can take you?

[SKSer45]

Originally Posted by Howie44

Let's make it interesting. I'm taking my 9yr old DAUGHTER to her first range trip tomorrow. I'll give her a little BRM class, and let her shoot a group. Wanna bet she can take you?

well there Boy scout, you outta know girls always shoot better than boys hahah. But yeah I bet she could take om me but as long as she can out shoot our AR-15/16 then no complaints here.

10 Army stickers says she likes the mausers action better than the finn

[Pete1979]

I have heard that certain surplus 7.62x54 can be made to shoot very consistent by simply breaking the lacquer seal prior to shooting but sub MOA is a very bold statement. I'm not saying it isn't possible but I wouldn't believe it without seeing it

[Howie44]

Originally Posted by Pete1979

I have heard that certain surplus 7.62x54 can be made to shoot very consistent by simply breaking the lacquer seal prior to shooting but sub MOA is a very bold statement. I'm not saying it isn't possible but I wouldn't believe it without seeing it

Ok, just for fun. goto post 283. last june, 1941 Pl marked Sako M39, 200yds, using Yugo surplus. (about 1.75", 5shot group)

Yes, I was having a good day, no, I cant do that all the time unless I'm using handloads

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...=147095&page=8

Finn rifles have the rep for excellence for a reason

[SKSer45]

Originally Posted by Howie44

Ok, just for fun. goto post 283. last june, 1941 Pl marked Sako M39, 200yds, using Yugo surplus. (about 1.75", 5shot group)

Yes, I was having a good day, no, I cant do that all the time unless I'm using handloads

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...=147095&page=8

Finn rifles have the rep for excellence for a reason

geez Park Ranger, there's a enough telescopes on that thread to see LV-426 hahah.

At least your shooting with iron sights right? But that's some good shooting. Also reminds me to pick up some Dirty Bird Targets as well. Good stuff isn't it?

Looks like next Wed. I be able to hit up ASR and do some shooting. I will try to pick up some Winchester 8mm but if not good 1954 Yugo Surplus it is

[Pete1979]

Originally Posted by Howie44

Ok, just for fun. goto post 283. last june, 1941 Pl marked Sako M39, 200yds, using Yugo surplus. (about 1.75", 5shot group)

Yes, I was having a good day, no, I cant do that all the time unless I'm using handloads

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...=147095&page=8

Finn rifles have the rep for excellence for a reason

That's some fine shooting, I need to spend more time with my VKT 41 but I am more partial to my Mausers, especially the Swedes. I wonder what someone with better eyes than mine could do with them...

[SKSer45]

Originally Posted by Pete1979

That's some fine shooting, I need to spend more time with my VKT 41 but I am more partial to my Mausers, especially the Swedes. I wonder what someone with better eyes than mine could do with them...

I would love to handle your Swedes Pete never shot one just handled one and drooled over the action.

[Pete1979]

You are welcome to use 1 of my M38s, I have a full length 96 in the way but won't have it until the 10th.

[SKSer45]

Originally Posted by Pete1979

You are welcome to use 1 of my M38s, I have a full length 96 in the way but won't have it until the 10th.

zzzzz. What happened to the swede mauser? I want to shoot a rifle not a flamethrower.

[Pete1979]

M38 Swede, not to be confused with its ugly sister the Mosin M38...
Take your pick, Carl Gustaf with straight bolt or Husquivarna with turned down bolt.

[SKSer45]

Originally Posted by Pete1979

M38 Swede, not to be confused with its ugly sister the Mosin M38...

ahh ok good scared me there for a second, thought you went to the other team heheh.

what ammo do you shoot out of it? pics?

[Pete1979]

Hand loads are my favorite but they both shoot surprisingly good with Prvi 139gr fmj. I'm not at home but I think I posted some picks on an older thread.

[Pete1979]

Here ya go, got into Photobucket

[Howie44]

Ok Skser, just got back from burro, lots of good 10shot groups w/ different Finn mosins.
BUT.... I did shoot one of the best 10 shot groups of my life with my B barrel M39. I'll scan the target when I can get to my computer. ALL the holes are touching except for one which is just off of the one jagged hole the other 9 made. Hehehe

[SKSer45]

Originally Posted by Howie44

Ok Skser, just got back from burro, lots of good 10shot groups w/ different Finn mosins.
BUT.... I did shoot one of the best 10 shot groups of my life with my B barrel M39. I'll scan the target when I can get to my computer. ALL the holes are touching except for one which is just off of the one jagged hole the other 9 made. Hehehe

ahhh very good GI Joe very good. How was the temperature? I bet it was hot. Daughter have a good time shooting and show the boys up?

[Noonanda]

Originally Posted by Josh Smith

The Russians and Finns generally operated as individuals: The Russians as pikemen and the Finns as riflemen.

The Mauser, especially in WWII Germany, was almost purely a support weapon for the squad's machine gun.

The Russian Mosin did not need to be capable of extreme precision. Neither did the Mauser, and they tend to show it.

The Finnish Mosin, on the other hand, was a rifleman's rifle, meant to take advantage of each round fired.

Regards,

Josh

No one can really argue these 2 points, German doctrine was the rifle supports the Machine gun. Russian Doctrine was the rifle was zeroed with the bayonet, and it was always attached

[tankerman]

Originally Posted by interstellar

Let's keep this open to everyone - only surplus ammo.

I guess we can offer a handicap to SKSer and give him 50 yards. Sound fair, guys?

Good one.

I guess the Moisin quality is the reason we see so many Moisin hunting rifles being used for big game in Africa.....must be their accuracy and reliability.......





Moisin + Big5 Tomato stake

[Josh Smith]

Originally Posted by tankerman

Good one.

I guess the Moisin quality is the reason we see so many Moisin hunting rifles being used for big game in Africa.....must be their accuracy and reliability.......





Moisin + Big5 Tomato stake

Mosins are push-feed. They are easier to make malfunction by short-stroking. Thus, they are not usually used for dangerous game. As well, they don't chamber elephant cartridges.

They are used regularly on bear in Europe.

Choose the action for your needs. Push feed is usually more inherently precise. Controlled feed is more forgiving of mismanagement of the bolt.

Look here: http://www.mcmillanusa.com/mcmillan-rifles.php

They make and use both push-feed and controlled-feed. Notice the specifications on each.

Josh

Go ahead and post a target... I'll out-shoot it with a Mosin.

[Pete1979]

Originally Posted by Josh Smith

Mosins are push-feed. They are easier to make malfunction by short-stroking. Thus, they are not usually used for dangerous game. As well, they don't chamber elephant cartridges.

They are used regularly on bear in Europe.

Choose the action for your needs. Push feed is usually more inherently precise. Controlled feed is more forgiving of mismanagement of the bolt.

Look here: http://www.mcmillanusa.com/mcmillan-rifles.php

They make and use both push-feed and controlled-feed. Notice the specifications on each.

Josh


Go ahead and post a target... I'll out-shoot it with a Mosin.

These were battle rifles designed to be fired empty then used as a spear or club. They were also designed to be manufactured in a country that was years behind in technology. They can not be compared to a modern precision system.
In a perfect world, a rimless cartridge fire formed and held in a perfect chamber between the datum line and the bolt face could be (theoretically) more precise. In this case, the cartridge head spaces on the rim, the bolt head is separate from the bolt body and the extractor is likely putting pressure on the over sized rim making perfect alignment difficult at best. These rifles did not have tight, round match chambers and perfect head space.
In this case push feed and 2 piece bolt were employed to reduce both cost and difficulty in manufacturing because that system does not require perfect alignment to function reliably. In my experience, a Mosin that does not have considerable slop in the action will not cycle smoothly.

The Finns used them well because they had them, the fact that they needed to "accurize" them in order to make them acceptable into their armed forces should be all the explanation needed.

[tankerman]

Originally Posted by Josh Smith

Go ahead and post a target... I'll out-shoot it with a Mosin.

I prefer my 1903 Greek Mannlicher-Schonauer (6.5x54) and 1892 Roumanian Mannlicher (6.5x53R).

The two sweetest military bolt action rifles ever been built IMO. Small bore, decades (in the case of the Roumanian a 100 years) before it became popular again.


Unfortunately/fortunately, my 1892 is an old custom gun built on a surplus action. Old as in 100 year old custom.

[Howie44]

Ok. I shot quite a few targets with my Finns yesterday. But the one I am entering was one of my best yet.

Mosin B barrel M39, 100yds, 1980's YUGO surplus, 10 shot group. ALL holes but one touching. edge to edge, 1 inch!!!!!

So, Skser, go ahead right now and change that sig line to Mosins 1 Mauser 0. And please bring your A game, I want to see you beat me

Howie

(the scan is 1:1 scale)

[SKSer45]

Originally Posted by Howie44

Ok. I shot quite a few targets with my Finns yesterday. But the one I am entering was one of my best yet.

Mosin B barrel M39, 100yds, 1980's YUGO surplus, 10 shot group. ALL holes but one touching. edge to edge, 1 inch!!!!!

So, Skser, go ahead right now and change that sig line to Mosins 1 Mauser 0. And please bring your A game, I want to see you beat me

Howie

(the scan is 1:1 scale)

yo go girl. Nice shooting. So Team Mosin Strikes first. Ok Mauser freaks, our turn to shove it back in their face.

[Josh Smith]

Originally Posted by Pete1979

These were battle rifles designed to be fired empty then used as a spear or club. They were also designed to be manufactured in a country that was years behind in technology. They can not be compared to a modern precision system.
In a perfect world, a rimless cartridge fire formed and held in a perfect chamber between the datum line and the bolt face could be (theoretically) more precise. In this case, the cartridge head spaces on the rim, the bolt head is separate from the bolt body and the extractor is likely putting pressure on the over sized rim making perfect alignment difficult at best. These rifles did not have tight, round match chambers and perfect head space.
In this case push feed and 2 piece bolt were employed to reduce both cost and difficulty in manufacturing because that system does not require perfect alignment to function reliably. In my experience, a Mosin that does not have considerable slop in the action will not cycle smoothly.

The Finns used them well because they had them, the fact that they needed to "accurize" them in order to make them acceptable into their armed forces should be all the explanation needed.

You know, I have to disagree with most of that.

Yes, the Mosin was downgraded from the original design for use by conscripts. That's not to say that the Mosin was not inherently precise; you back up that concept when you point out the Finns. Incidentally, those modifications are really not much at all, and similar mods were done by the Russians when they had time.

The first group from my Mosin was about 2.5MOA with surplus. This is why I chose to build on it. It demonstrated superior precision and only needed to shoot lower. The rest of it was me making it more user-friendly and dialing it in to shoot how I wanted it to.

A fireformed RIMMED case will headspace on the shoulder. This is what I do, in fact... and the rim design of the 7.62x54r makes it squeeze a bit when chambered, aligning what needs to be aligned.

Both the Russians and Finns have taken Bronze, Silver and Gold medals using the Mosin.

As for the rough action, the Mauser could use some more slop, I think. My Gewehr 88 is finely machined, better than the Mauser in fact, and if the bolt is not kept lubed it will drag. Same for Mausers and danged near any bolt action I can think of.

The bolt head alignment on the Mosin is separate from the bolt. It aligns itself to the case, not to the bolt, due to the placement of the locking lugs. The alignment argument is moot. The Mosin inherently aligns the bolt face to the cartridge better than the wartime Mauser, and it can be proven with Magic Marker on the backs of cases.

I did post a video going over the Mosin's bolt. Might take a look at it. It's not as simple a concept as it appears at first glance. Took 20-some minutes to go over every detail.

The M91/30 is coming back to serve alongside the SVD rifles simply because it can still hang with the big dogs. There's a picture circulating the 'net right now with a Russian soldier holding a modern PU sniper and with an SVD slung. My guess is that the Mosin is intended for further shots as the SVD was never designed for better than 2MOA.

As for the McMillan stuff I posted: It was only a convenient way to show that both action are in use by a top maker, and I've *heard* that the preferred accuracy action is the push-feed. The CRF is for their dangerous game rifles.

But, I don't know much about the McMillan as I'd like, except I want one someday. I don't see any lefty bolts. Hopefully they make 'em.

Regards,

Josh

[Pete1979]

For the record I am not picking on your rifle or your ability to shoot it well and I base what I am saying on my own observations of the rifles that I own and shoot. I feel the Mauser is a much nicer rifle built with a higher degree of precision.
I do not argue that a fire formed and neck sized rimmed cartridge will head space on the shoulder (Which I also do to extend the brass life on both 303 and 7.62x54) or that a floating bolt head (Like a modern Savage) will align in the chamber in spite of slop or misalignment, the point I am trying to make is that these are both crutches to make up for less than ideal manufacturing.

[SKSer45]

geeez josh just kicking the hornets nest are we??? hehehe Well at least Howie shot good with his rifles and as much **** talk I do (and back it up) also know what good shooting is. That my friends is good shooting but since this is Josh's call out and he started this whole mess, like to see what he does with a plain jane mosin. Seems to me he just has to have some type of mod or reason behind it right?

I mean how Howie shot his is by way of stock and surplus ammo, I am going to be doing the exact same.

[Josh Smith]

Originally Posted by SKSer45

geeez josh just kicking the hornets nest are we??? hehehe Well at least Howie shot good with his rifles and as much **** talk I do (and back it up) also know what good shooting is. That my friends is good shooting but since this is Josh's call out and he started this whole mess, like to see what he does with a plain jane mosin. Seems to me he just has to have some type of mod or reason behind it right?

I mean how Howie shot his is by way of stock and surplus ammo, I am going to be doing the exact same.

Howie's M39 and my M91/30 have about the same mods done to it. One by the Finns and one by me.

I do not own a stock Mosin. Could take this back to stock but don't really wanna. It's a working gun and I need it for that.

Upside is that I know how it shoots. I probably cannot do as well as Howie, but I just got glasses so we'll see what I can see at 100 yards.

For the record, this is what it did stock:



And after the front sight mod to bring the POI down, still stock except for the front sight:



I'll just use those two for my stock rifle submissions. I may or may not be able to do better, now.

I'll try to get time to get another target up, 100 yards. Sights have kept me very busy.

I still want you to post first, SKSer, so I can print your target and shoot over it...



Josh

[Pete1979]

Don't B barrel mosins have .308 bores?

[SKSer45]

Well might be a while there Josh, things are looking to good for a range meet. Looks like next month be the only time I can get it in. My rifles will have no mods, no adjustments, no sand bags, no bench rest, just good old standing and prone and my mat.

You might not like the target I shoot at either....just a bit of warning for ya :P

[Howie44]

@ pete. No, they do not have .308 bores. All M39s were designed for the D166 round (.310). Only the older finn rifles have .308 bores (like some M28, M28/30, M24.. )
The B on the barrel signifies the Belgian blanks sent to VKT to be assembled into M39s

[Josh Smith]

Originally Posted by Howie44

@ pete. No, they do not have .308 bores. All M39s were designed for the D166 round (.310). Only the older finn rifles have .308 bores (like some M28, M28/30, M24.. )
The B on the barrel signifies the Belgian blanks sent to VKT to be assembled into M39s

Speaking of this, there's a strange thing about my Russian Mosin: It slugs to o.299" lands and o.3095" grooves.

I slugged it several times to be sure, and yup, it's a o.310!

I do not see Finnish capture marks on it anywhere, and it appears to be a 1939 manufacture from a 1938 receiver.



This is with o.308" Hornady Interlocks. Charge was 45 grains Varget, which is what I keep coming back to with any 147 to 150 grain bullet. It shoots o.308" to o.312" bullets nicely across the board, with the exception of Hornady's round nose soft point. Vertical stringing is very bad with that stuff, and this rifle just doesn't string. Something's heating that barrel up and I think it's the long bearing surface. Still, I want to try some slow powder with them (H4350) before I give them up.

Josh