FAQ: Shipping

[kemasa]

WORK IN PROGRESS

NOTE: Laws change over time, so what was written at one point in time may no longer be correct, so you need to read ALL of the posts and confirm that it is still correct. An example is in regards to shipping C&R firearms into CA.

All:

While the law is not perfectly clear, the Federal law seems to require written notification to the common carrier (which includes the USPS) that you are shipping a firearm. UPS and FedEx don't seem to have any process for this.

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx...3.1.13&idno=27

There is no law which requires overnight shipping of any firearms. UPS/FedEx have policies in regards to shipping handguns. Unless you have a large contract, you will be forced to ship a handgun overnight. Those with contracts can ship second-day air.

FedEx Express and FedEx ground are basically two separate companies. FedEx ground will not ship handguns.

In general, it is cheaper to ship a long gun FedEx ground.

Non-FFLs:

There is no Federal law which prevents a non-FFL from shipping to a FFL, but some FFLs have policies of not receiving a firearm from a non-FFL, which is their choice.

Before shipping a firearm to a "FFL", you should ensure that the person is really a FFL using the BATF ezcheck web page:

https://www.atfonline.gov/fflezcheck/

You will need the first three and last five number of the FFL's number. It is not required to ship only to the addresses listed on the FFL, but it is a good idea to ensure that it is going to the FFL and not someone else.

FFLs who do accept shipment of firearms from non-FFLs may request a copy of the shipper's ID in order to log where the firearm came from.

There is no requirement that a FFL give a copy of their FFL to a non-licensee.

Only FFLs can ship handguns USPS. Depending on the cost for the FFL to ship a handgun, it might be cheaper for a non-FFL to ship a handgun through a FFL.

USPS:

FFLs need to submit Form 1508 when shipping a handgun USPS. There is no requirement that you bring the package to the Post Office, but it is a good idea. Also, it is a good idea to retain a copy of the Form 1508. It has been reported that insurance claims have been denied if a copy of the Form 1508 is not provided. I bring two copies of Form 1508 when I ship a firearm, so I retain an original of the form, just in case.

You can get regional boxes through the USPS web site, which are not available at the local Post Office. If you compare the cost to ship Priority, Flat Rate Priority or Regional Priority you can often save money depending on the distance and the weight.

http://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c4_009.htm

FedEx:

http://www.fedex.com/us/service-guid...xpress-ground/

UPS:

http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/res.../firearms.html

[kel-tec-innovations]

sticky?

[kel-tec-innovations]

Found this on the NRA Website, hope it helps

http://www.nramuseum.org/gun-info-re...-and-ammo.aspx

[kemasa]

Originally Posted by kel-tec-innovations

sticky?

No need really since it is listed in the FFL Master FAQ, along with other threads.

[Mssr. Eleganté]

Originally Posted by kemasa

...While the law is not perfectly clear, the Federal law seems to require written notification to the common carrier (which includes the USPS) that you are shipping a firearm. UPS and FedEx don't seem to have any process for this.

The Gun Contol Act only requires you to notify a common carrier that you are shipping a firearm if you are shipping it interstate to a non-FFL. If you are shipping within your State or to an FFL in any State then notification isn't required under the GCA. But like you said, the USPS regs do require notification and UPS and FedEx both have policies requiring notification.

[tenpercentfirearms]

Originally Posted by kemasa

USPS:

FFLs need to submit Form 1508 when shipping a firearm USPS.

Is it a firearm or a handgun? I thought you could ship long guns without the 1508, but needed it for handguns.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by Mssr. Eleganté

The Gun Contol Act only requires you to notify a common carrier that you are shipping a firearm if you are shipping it interstate to a non-FFL. If you are shipping within your State or to an FFL in any State then notification isn't required under the GCA. But like you said, the USPS regs do require notification and UPS and FedEx both have policies requiring notification.

Would this apply if you were addressing and shipping it to yourself in another state?

[kemasa]

It is a bit unclear. Depending on how you read the section, you need to notify the carrier in writing that you are shipping a firearm. The shipper can not release a firearm unless they get an adult signature. If they are not notified, then they can not follow the law.

Also, the USPS web site says:

432.2 PS Form 1508

PS Form 1508, Statement by Shipper of Firearms, must be completed by each firearm manufacturer or dealer who deposits firearms for mailing. The form must be filed with the postmaster of the post office of mailing.

Notice, it does not say for handguns only. The bottom line is that it does not hurt and it is a means of reporting that it is a firearm as perhaps required.

[kemasa]

Originally Posted by Mssr. Eleganté

The Gun Contol Act only requires you to notify a common carrier that you are shipping a firearm if you are shipping it interstate to a non-FFL. If you are shipping within your State or to an FFL in any State then notification isn't required under the GCA. But like you said, the USPS regs do require notification and UPS and FedEx both have policies requiring notification.

Your reading of it might not be correct. Since you can not normally ship to a non-licensee, that reading does not make much sense, so why would it say that you have to give written notice when you ship to someone who you can't ship it?

As linked above:

§ 478.31 Delivery by common or contract carrier.

(a) No person shall knowingly deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce to any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped: Provided, That any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of that trip without violating any provision of this part.

Reducing it to make it more simple:

§ 478.31 Delivery by common or contract carrier.

(a) No person shall knowingly deliver to any common or contract carrier for shipment in interstate to any person other than a licensed dealer, any package in which there is any firearm without written notice to the carrier that such firearm is being shipped:

Read this carefully. While it can be read multiple ways, it also can be read that you can only ship a package only to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector AND that you need written notice to the carrier.

[Mssr. Eleganté]

Three examples of legally shipping a firearm to a non-FFL in another State are...

- shipping your own firearm to yourself care of a friend, hotel, hunting lodge etc.

- return of a repaired firearm to its owner by a manufacturer.

- distribution of firearms from an estate by an executor to an heir.

And then of course it's legal in most States for one non-FFL to ship a firearm to another non-FFL. This is even legal in California for loans to friends, family transfers and 50+ year old C&R long gun transfers.

[tenpercentfirearms]

Do you want to use this one and have me add it to the FAQ or do you want to make a new thread and use it?

[kemasa]

Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms

Do you want to use this one and have me add it to the FAQ or do you want to make a new thread and use it?

Huh? You already added this thread to the master FAQ, item 10.

#10, what are the shipping rules in general for firearms? http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...4#post10218124

[billmaykafer]

can a C&R03FFL in maryland ship a C&R rifle to a C&R 03FFL in san diego,ca? my buddy says no,the maryland C&R says yes SKS is type of rifle.

[kemasa]

Originally Posted by billmaykafer

can a C&R03FFL in maryland ship a C&R rifle to a C&R 03FFL in san diego,ca? my buddy says no,the maryland C&R says yes SKS is type of rifle.

As far as I know, yes, it is legal, as long as the firearm is legal.

C&R handguns have to be shipped to a CA FFL and can not go direct.

[tenpercentfirearms]

Originally Posted by kemasa

Huh? You already added this thread to the master FAQ, item 10.

Oops, I thought it was a new one. Sure enough. That made that an easy question to answer.

To punish you for correcting me in public, I am going to go erase it.

[kemasa]

How about just deleting your post asking about it instead? :-)

[billmaykafer]

Originally Posted by kemasa

As far as I know, yes, it is legal, as long as the firearm is legal.

C&R handguns have to be shipped to a CA FFL and can not go direct.

thanks.

[Mssr. Eleganté]

Originally Posted by billmaykafer

can a C&R03FFL in maryland ship a C&R rifle to a C&R 03FFL in san diego,ca? my buddy says no,the maryland C&R says yes SKS is type of rifle.

As of right now this is legal of the C&R rifle is also over 50 years old and the receiving party is a C&R FFL. The person shipping it doesn't need any kind of FFL.

Starting next year a rifle will no longer need to be over 50 years old, it will just need to be C&R. But the California C&R FFL will also need to have a COE from CalDOJ.

[tenpercentfirearms]

Originally Posted by kemasa

How about just deleting your post asking about it instead? :-)

The Internet is permanent.

[CifaldiPrecision]

Originally Posted by Mssr. Eleganté

- return of a repaired firearm to its owner by a manufacturer.

.

Just to be clear this is only from a manufacturer and doesn't pertain to when someone sends in work to a FFL gunsmith, correct?

[EOD Guy]

Originally Posted by IronWorksTactical

Just to be clear this is only from a manufacturer and doesn't pertain to when someone sends in work to a FFL gunsmith, correct?

No. The exception also applies to licensed gunsmiths or repair facioities,

[kemasa]

Originally Posted by Mssr. Eleganté

As of right now this is legal of the C&R rifle is also over 50 years old and the receiving party is a C&R FFL. The person shipping it doesn't need any kind of FFL.

Do you have a reference for the requirement that it has to be over 50 years old? The 50 year rule applies to FTF w/o going through a FFL.

A person with a C&R FFL is a licensee in terms of C&R long guns and the requirement that it go through a dealer applies to a handgun.

The DOJ says that it can go direct if it is over 50 years old, but there was no reference given. If the person goes out of state, then can pickup a C&R firearm with a C&R FFL and only for handguns do they have to submit a form. I have to wonder if there was a mistake made.

[GunsAndAmmoGirl]

So, reading this has helped a lot, however, is there any updated information regarding shipping a handgun via USPS? Because I was out and about today, I personally took a handgun shipment, inside a flat rate priority mail box, insured and going to another FFL (I am the shipping FFL). They flat out refused saying it needed to be "registered" for an additonal fee of $11.72, and NO clear tape allowed, only brown paper tape..... I did have my ID, FFl license, and the Form 1508 on hand.

Has anyone had this problem or have any suggestions or updated information? Much appreciated in advance. Thanks!

[kemasa]

I would suggest that you call the USPS number from the web page since they are wrong to try to educate them. There is nothing which requires that a firearm be shipped registered, which requires papertape.

Get their names, push the issue by asking to talk to a supervisor and/or postmaster. Realize that they might just be idiots, so don't try to push it too far other than taking names for later use.

You might just need to go to another post office.

You don't need your ID nor your FFL, although it is good to have it.

[GunsAndAmmoGirl]

Originally Posted by kemasa

I would suggest that you call the USPS number from the web page since they are wrong to try to educate them. There is nothing which requires that a firearm be shipped registered, which requires papertape.

Get their names, push the issue by asking to talk to a supervisor and/or postmaster. Realize that they might just be idiots, so don't try to push it too far other than taking names for later use.

You might just need to go to another post office.

You don't need your ID nor your FFL, although it is good to have it.

Thanks for your quick reply Kemasa, and always for your knowledge and sound advice.

[Mssr. Eleganté]

Originally Posted by kemasa

Do you have a reference for the requirement that it has to be over 50 years old? The 50 year rule applies to FTF w/o going through a FFL.

It's Penal Code Section 27965...

CPC 27965
(a) If all of the following requirements are satisfied, Section 27545 does not apply to the sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm:

(1) The sale, loan, or transfer is infrequent, as defined in Section 16730.
(2) The firearm is not a handgun.
(3) The firearm is a curio or relic manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date but is not a replica, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, or its successor.

(b) This section shall remain in effect only until January 1, 2014, and as of that date is repealed, unless a later enacted statute, that is enacted before January 1, 2014, deletes or extends that date.

As you know, all firearms transfers in California have to go through a "California licensed dealer" unless there is an exemption. C&R FFLs in California are able to get C&R long guns that are over 50 years old shipped to their door because of the above exemption. C&R handguns and newer C&R rifles don't qualify. So even though a California C&R FFL is exempt from the federal requirement to transfer C&R firearms through a dealer when the firearm is coming from outside of California, they still have to comply with California's dealer transfer requirement on everything except 50+ year old C&R long guns. It's the exact same exemption non-FFLs in California use to transfer 50+ year old C&R long guns, but non-FFLs are limited to transfers between two California residents.

Originally Posted by kemasa

A person with a C&R FFL is a licensee in terms of C&R long guns and the requirement that it go through a dealer applies to a handgun.

California's requirement that it go through a dealer applies to all firearms except those listed in the CPC 27965 exemption.

Originally Posted by kemasa

If the person goes out of state, then can pickup a C&R firearm with a C&R FFL and only for handguns do they have to submit a form. I have to wonder if there was a mistake made.

While outside of California, a California C&R FFL is not subject to California laws. So they can acquire C&R handguns and C&R long guns of any age. When the California legislature realized this some time in the mid to late 1990's they came up with the requirement that C&R FFLs had to register any C&R handguns they acquired while they were outside of California within five days of returning. Starting next year the same will apply to C&R long guns acquired while outside of California.

[kemasa]

Originally Posted by Mssr. Eleganté

It's Penal Code Section 27965...

I would not count on that.

There are sections, which that section does not, which reference licensed collectors, as an example:

(d) The person receiving the firearm has a current certificate of
eligibility issued pursuant to Section 26710.
(e) The person receiving the firearm is licensed as a collector
pursuant to Chapter 44 of Title 18 of the United States Code and the
regulations issued thereto.

That section does not deal with those who are licensed as a collector, which means it applies to everyone. You need to search for the exemptions for licensed collectors.

...
While outside of California, a California C&R FFL is not subject to California laws. So they can acquire C&R handguns and C&R long guns of any age. When the California legislature realized this some time in the mid to late 1990's they came up with the requirement that C&R FFLs had to register any C&R handguns they acquired while they were outside of California within five days of returning. Starting next year the same will apply to C&R long guns acquired while outside of California.

Actually, that is not quite true. Since it is 30 days:

27966. Commencing January 1, 2014, if all of the following
requirements are satisfied, Section 27545 shall not apply to the
sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm:
(a) The sale, loan, or transfer is infrequent, as defined in
Section 16730.
(b) The firearm is not a handgun.
(c) The firearm is a curio or relic, as defined in Section 478.11
of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, or its successor.
(d) The person receiving the firearm has a current certificate of
eligibility issued pursuant to Section 26710.
(e) The person receiving the firearm is licensed as a collector
pursuant to Chapter 44 of Title 18 of the United States Code and the
regulations issued thereto.
(f) Within 30 days of taking possession of the firearm, the person
to whom it is transferred shall forward by prepaid mail, or deliver
in person to the Department of Justice, a report that includes
information concerning the individual taking possession of the
firearm, how title was obtained and from whom, and a description of
the firearm in question. The report forms that individuals complete
pursuant to this section shall be provided to them by the department.

[Mssr. Eleganté]

I don't even know how to reply. You are just quoting random bits of penal code that don't apply to what we are talking about. I talk about California C&R FFLs receiving C&R firearms inside California from people who are not California licensed dealers, and you post a blurb from the penal code about receiving C&R firearms from California licensed dealers. I tell you that California C&R FFLs have to report C&R handguns that they acquire while outside of California within five days of returning to California with the handgun, and you claim it's thirty days. Then you post the penal code section dealing with transfers of C&R long guns that happen inside of California after January 1, 2014.

WTF!?!?

CPC Section 27545 says that in California, when neither party to a transaction is a California licensed dealer, the transaction must go through a California licensed dealer. CPC 27965 exempts C&R long guns that are over 50 years old from this requirement. What is so hard to understand about that? Are you claiming there is another section of the Penal Code that exempts newer C&R long guns? If so, please point it out.

[kemasa]

The CA PC documents what is illegal and/or what must be done. It does not document what is legal. The requirement that a C&R FFL holder report a C&R purchased out of state and brought into CA is in the CA PC.

I said it changes in 2014 and it will no longer be 5 days, but 30 days, so it is not the same for long guns as it is today for handguns.

It is legal under Federal law for a person with a C&R FFL to receive any C&R firearm. CA requires C&R handguns to go through a dealer. There are exemptions in the CA PC for those with a C&R FFL, as an example. So please show me where it is illegal for a person with a C&R FFL to receive a C&R long gun. The code section you quoted does not deal with the issue of the person having a C&R FFL.

Please show me where in the CA PC it allows a person to eat a blueberry muffin in a park on a Sunday.

[kemasa]

Originally Posted by gordon freeman

Can a FFL ship to a private party?

In some cases, yes, such as a return of a firearm for gun smithing work.

Lets say I travel a long distance for a FTF private party transfer/DROS.
Can the FFL then ship the firearm to me after the waiting period?

In that case, no. You need to sign the 4473 at the end of the waiting period and the FFL also has to see your ID again.

[Mssr. Eleganté]

Originally Posted by kemasa

The CA PC documents what is illegal and/or what must be done. It does not document what is legal.

Exactly!

Originally Posted by kemasa

The requirement that a C&R FFL holder report a C&R purchased out of state and brought into CA is in the CA PC.

Correct! And the requirement that firearms transfers go through a California licensed dealer is also in the PC. It's CPC Section 27545. Why do you claim that C&R FFLs are exempt from CPC 27545 for all C&R long guns. You just keep saying "it's different for C&R FFLs". CPC 2745 says it applies to anybody who is not a California licensed dealer. That means it applies to C&R FFLs too.

Originally Posted by kemasa

I said it changes in 2014 and it will no longer be 5 days, but 30 days, so it is not the same for long guns as it is today for handguns.

You're reading the wrong section of the law. The part you quote has to do with transfers that happen in California. It is for C&R long guns only and requires that the C&R FFL have a COE. The five day requirement that I'm talking about is for C&R handguns purchased while the C&R FFL is outside California. Starting next year it applies to C&R long guns as well, and the reporting requirement is still five days for both handguns and long guns.

CPC 27565.
(a) This section applies in the following circumstances:

(1) A person is licensed as a collector pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.
(2) The licensed premises of that person are within this state.
(3) The licensed collector acquires, outside of this state, a handgun, and commencing January 1, 2014, any firearm.
(4) The licensed collector takes actual possession of that firearm outside of this state pursuant to the provisions of subsection (j) of Section 923 of Title 18 of the United States Code, as amended by Public Law 104-208, and transports the firearm into this state.
(5) The firearm is a curio or relic, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations.

(b) Within five days of transporting a firearm into this state under the circumstances described in subdivision (a), the licensed collector shall report the acquisition of that firearm to the department in a format prescribed by the department.

Originally Posted by kemasa

It is legal under Federal law for a person with a C&R FFL to receive any C&R firearm.

But they must also comply with the laws of the State they are in. Having an FFL doesn't just exempt you from State laws, unless a State actually writes the exemption into their laws.

Originally Posted by kemasa

CA requires C&R handguns to go through a dealer.

It's funny that you say that. The only reason California law requires C&R handguns have to go through a dealer is because of CPC 27545 and that section applies to long guns as well. Why do you claim that C&R handguns have to go through a dealer and not C&R long guns? You seem to be claiming that C&R FFLs are exempt from CPC 27545. If that's the case (it's not) then why would you think C&R handguns have to go through a dealer? It doesn't make sense.

Originally Posted by kemasa

There are exemptions in the CA PC for those with a C&R FFL, as an example. So please show me where it is illegal for a person with a C&R FFL to receive a C&R long gun.

Yes, there are all kinds of exemptions in the CPC for people with C&R FFLs. But just because C&R FFLs are exempt from some CPC sections it doesn't make them exempt from all CPC sections.

The code section you quoted does not deal with the issue of the person having a C&R FFL.

The code section that requires firearms transfers in California to go through a California licensed dealer applies to all transactions "Where neither party to the transaction holds a dealer's license issued pursuant to Sections 26700 to 26915." C&R FFLs do not hold a dealer's license, so they are subject to this section of the law just like non-licensees are. That means they are restricted to receiving 50+ year old C&R long guns. You seem to be claiming that California C&R FFLs are exempt from this section of the law for some other reason, but you won't post what it is.

Originally Posted by kemasa

Please show me where in the CA PC it allows a person to eat a blueberry muffin in a park on a Sunday.

The law doesn't work that way. The law generally tells you what's illegal to do, not what's legal to do. California law says firearms transfers in California have to go through a California licensed dealer. There is an exemption for C&R long guns that are over 50 years old. Starting next year there is an exemption for C&R long guns of any age, but the receiving party must have a C&R FFL and a COE.

[kemasa]

Originally Posted by Mssr. Eleganté

Exactly!

Correct, but you seem to be missing the point.

Correct! And the requirement that firearms transfers go through a California licensed dealer is also in the PC. It's CPC Section 27545. Why do you claim that C&R FFLs are exempt from CPC 27545 for all C&R long guns. You just keep saying "it's different for C&R FFLs". CPC 2745 says it applies to anybody who is not a California licensed dealer. That means it applies to C&R FFLs too.

Have you looked at all of the exemptions throughout the CA PC?

You're reading the wrong section of the law. The part you quote has to do with transfers that happen in California. It is for C&R long guns only and requires that the C&R FFL have a COE. The five day requirement that I'm talking about is for C&R handguns purchased while the C&R FFL is outside California. Starting next year it applies to C&R long guns as well, and the reporting requirement is still five days for both handguns and long guns.

Really? 27565(3) specifically says a handgun and there is no wording which says that changes in 2014.

Did you read 27966?

But they must also comply with the laws of the State they are in. Having an FFL doesn't just exempt you from State laws, unless a State actually writes the exemption into their laws.

No exemption is needed if it is not prohibited.

It's funny that you say that. The only reason California law requires C&R handguns have to go through a dealer is because of CPC 27545 and that section applies to long guns as well. Why do you claim that C&R handguns have to go through a dealer and not C&R long guns? You seem to be claiming that C&R FFLs are exempt from CPC 27545. If that's the case (it's not) then why would you think C&R handguns have to go through a dealer? It doesn't make sense.

27545? Interesting as there are many exemptions for that. C&R handguns are specifically mentioned, which is why.

Yes, there are all kinds of exemptions in the CPC for people with C&R FFLs. But just because C&R FFLs are exempt from some CPC sections it doesn't make them exempt from all CPC sections.

I never said it did, did I? The question is whether you have gone through all of the CA PC to see what you are claiming is true. It is difficult, to say the least, to follow everything and looking at one CA PC section is not good enough. Perhaps what you saying is correct, but perhaps not.

The code section that requires firearms transfers in California to go through a California licensed dealer applies to all transactions "Where neither party to the transaction holds a dealer's license issued pursuant to Sections 26700 to 26915." C&R FFLs do not hold a dealer's license, so they are subject to this section of the law just like non-licensees are. That means they are restricted to receiving 50+ year old C&R long guns. You seem to be claiming that California C&R FFLs are exempt from this section of the law for some other reason, but you won't post what it is.

I have posted it, but you are not listening. There are numerous exemptions, written different ways, which makes it hard to tell what the actual case is. You can't just look at one section and ignore all the exemptions.

The law doesn't work that way. The law generally tells you what's illegal to do, not what's legal to do. California law says firearms transfers in California have to go through a California licensed dealer. There is an exemption for C&R long guns that are over 50 years old. Starting next year there is an exemption for C&R long guns of any age, but the receiving party must have a C&R FFL and a COE.

Exactly. You are pointing to one CA PC section and ignoring all others. A search of "27545" which also has exemptions in the same line (if it is on the next line I did not find it and include it) in the CA PC results in:

26361-26391:any of the exemptions from Section 27545, so long as that handgun is
27500-27590:exemption from Section 27545.
27850-27966:27850. (a) Section 27545 does not apply to a sale, delivery, or
27850-27966:27855. Section 27545 does not apply to the sale, delivery, loan, or
27850-27966:27860. Section 27545 does not apply to the sale, delivery, loan, or
27850-27966:27865. Section 27545 does not apply to sales, deliveries, or
27850-27966:27870. Section 27545 does not apply to the transfer of a firearm,
27850-27966:27875. Section 27545 does not apply to the transfer of a handgun,
27850-27966:27880. Section 27545 does not apply to the loan of a firearm
27850-27966:27885. Section 27545 does not apply to the loan of a firearm if all
27850-27966:27890. Section 27545 does not apply to the delivery of a firearm to
27850-27966:27895. Section 27545 does not apply to the sale, delivery, or
27850-27966:27900. (a) Section 27545 does not apply to the infrequent sale or
27850-27966:27905. Section 27545 does not apply to the transfer of a firearm if
27850-27966:27910. Section 27545 does not apply to the loan of a firearm to a
27850-27966:27915. Section 27545 does not apply to a person who takes title or
27850-27966:27920. Section 27545 does not apply to a person who takes title or
27850-27966:27925. (a) Section 27545 does not apply to a person who takes
27850-27966:27930. Section 27545 does not apply to deliveries, transfers, or
27850-27966:27935. Section 27545 does not apply to the sale, delivery, or
27850-27966:27940. Section 27545 does not apply to the sale, delivery, or
27850-27966:27945. Section 27545 does not apply to or affect the following
27850-27966:27950. Section 27545 does not apply to the loan of a firearm, other
27850-27966:27955. Section 27545 does not apply to the loan of a firearm if all
27850-27966:27960. (a) Section 27545 does not apply to the loan of a firearm if
27850-27966:Section 27545 does not apply to the sale, loan, or transfer of a
27850-27966:requirements are satisfied, Section 27545 shall not apply to the
28000:28000. A person who is exempt from Section 27545 or is otherwise
32100-32110:applicable exemption to Section 27545.
33850-33895:33895. Section 27545 does not apply to deliveries, transfers, or

So, have you gone through all of the spaghetti of the CA PC to ensure that it is not legal? Remember, if it is not prohibited, it is not illegal.

[Mssr. Eleganté]

Originally Posted by kemasa

...Have you looked at all of the exemptions throughout the CA PC?

Yes. Several of us here have scoured the CPC for years, trying to find an exemption to CPC 27545 for California C&R FFLs. The only one is the exemption for 50+ year old C&R long guns that everybody already knows about. There are exemptions for C&R FFLs who reside outside of California, but not for California C&R FFLs. We would have loved to find another exemption. We looked really, really hard.

Originally Posted by kemasa

Really? 27565(3) specifically says a handgun and there is no wording which says that changes in 2014.

Really? I posted the actual text of 27565(3) in my previous response. Do you see the part where it says it changes in 2014 to include any firearm? Here it is again...

27565(3) The licensed collector acquires, outside of this state, a handgun, and commencing January 1, 2014, any firearm.

Originally Posted by kemasa

Did you read 27966?

Yes. It says that starting in 2014 the 50+ year restriction goes away, but to take advantage of the C&R long gun exemption you will need to have a C&R FFL and a COE. I already explained that a few posts up in this thread. You even quoted part of that post.

Originally Posted by kemasa

No exemption is needed if it is not prohibited.

But it is prohibited by 27545. So an exemption is needed. Right now 50+ year old C&R long guns are exempted. There is no exemption for handguns or newer C&R long guns. Starting next year all C&R long guns are exempted, but only if the receiving party has a C&R FFL and a COE.

Originally Posted by kemasa

27545? Interesting as there are many exemptions for that. C&R handguns are specifically mentioned, which is why.

Yes, there are many exemptions to 27545. But none of them exempt C&R handguns or newer C&R long guns acquired in California by California C&R FFLs.

Originally Posted by kemasa

I never said it did, did I? The question is whether you have gone through all of the CA PC to see what you are claiming is true. It is difficult, to say the least, to follow everything and looking at one CA PC section is not good enough. Perhaps what you saying is correct, but perhaps not.

I have posted it, but you are not listening. There are numerous exemptions, written different ways, which makes it hard to tell what the actual case is. You can't just look at one section and ignore all the exemptions.



Exactly. You are pointing to one CA PC section and ignoring all others. A search of "27545" which also has exemptions in the same line (if it is on the next line I did not find it and include it) in the CA PC results in:



So, have you gone through all of the spaghetti of the CA PC to ensure that it is not legal? Remember, if it is not prohibited, it is not illegal.

You have not posted the exemption. You just posted a huge wall of text and said the exemption might be in there somewhere. And I'm not ignoring anything. I'm just not posting all the other exemptions in this thread because they are not relevant to this thread. You seem to be claiming that there are so many exemptions to CPC 27545 that one of them must support your argument, but you don't know which one it is, so you can't post it, but it's probably there, so I'm probably wrong.

[kemasa]

Originally Posted by Mssr. Eleganté

You seem to be claiming that there are so many exemptions to CPC 27545 that one of them must support your argument, but you don't know which one it is, so you can't post it, but it's probably there, so I'm probably wrong.

Incorrect. I am saying that the CA PC is such a mess it is hard to tell if it is there or not, whether it is banned or not.

28050, which deals with such transfers, is a PPT, which does not apply when the seller is out of state or not a CA resident. Or are you saying that a sale of a firearm from a private seller from out of state is limited to a FFL fee of $10?

27545. Where neither party to the transaction holds a dealer's
license issued pursuant to Sections 26700 to 26915, inclusive, the
parties to the transaction shall complete the sale, loan, or transfer
of that firearm through a licensed firearms dealer pursuant to
Chapter 5 (commencing with Section 28050).

28050. (a) A person shall complete any sale, loan, or transfer of a
firearm through a person licensed pursuant to Sections 26700 to
26915, inclusive, in accordance with this chapter in order to comply
with Section 27545.
(b) The seller or transferor or the person loaning the firearm
shall deliver the firearm to the dealer who shall retain possession
of that firearm.
(c) The dealer shall then deliver the firearm to the purchaser or
transferee or the person being loaned the firearm, if it is not
prohibited, in accordance with Section 27540.
(d) If the dealer cannot legally deliver the firearm to the
purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm, the
dealer shall forthwith, without waiting for the conclusion of the
waiting period described in Sections 26815 and 27540, return the
firearm to the transferor or seller or the person loaning the
firearm. The dealer shall not return the firearm to the seller or
transferor or the person loaning the firearm when to do so would
constitute a violation of Section 27500, 27505, 27515, 27520, 27525,
27530, or 27535. If the dealer cannot legally return the firearm to
the transferor or seller or the person loaning the firearm, then the
dealer shall forthwith deliver the firearm to the sheriff of the
county or the chief of police or other head of a municipal police
department of any city or city and county, who shall then dispose of
the firearm in the manner provided by Sections 18000, 18005, and
34000.


28055. (a) For a sale, loan, or transfer conducted pursuant to this
chapter, the purchaser or transferee or person being loaned the
firearm may be required by the dealer to pay a fee not to exceed ten
dollars ($10) per firearm.
(b) No other fee may be charged by the dealer for a sale, loan, or
transfer of a firearm conducted pursuant to this chapter, except for
the applicable fees that may be charged pursuant to Sections 23690
and 28300 and Article 3 (commencing with Section 28200) of Chapter 6
and forwarded to the Department of Justice, and the fees set forth in
Section 31650.
(c) The dealer may not charge any additional fees.
(d) Nothing in these provisions shall prevent a dealer from
charging a smaller fee.

Is that what you are saying?

[Mssr. Eleganté]

Originally Posted by kemasa

Incorrect. I am saying that the CA PC is such a mess it is hard to tell if it is there or not, whether it is banned or not.

28050, which deals with such transfers, is a PPT, which does not apply when the seller is out of state or not a CA resident. Or are you saying that a sale of a firearm from a private seller from out of state is limited to a FFL fee of $10?


Is that what you are saying?

According to the CPC, yes. According to the DROS software, no.

What I don't understand is, if you think that C&R FFLs are exempt from 27545 for C&R firearms, why do you think it only applies to C&R long guns? There is no section of the penal code that says only handguns have to go through a California dealer. Can you show the CPC that says only C&R long guns are exempt from 27545? I'm talking about before 2014.

[kemasa]

The first thing that you need to show is that 27545 applies, not that they are exempt from it. If 27545 applies to a firearm being shipped to a FFL from private party, then the max fee is $10, which almost all FFLs are violating. But this is not the only problem since there is a process that must be followed with regards to 28050, which means that a FFL can not accept a firearm from a private party since they can not swipe the ID, nor see the ID or anything else. If this were actually the case, then don't you think that someone at the DOJ would do something about it?

This all leads me to believe that 27545 does not apply in the case of a person shipping a firearm to a FFL and if it does not apply to a person shipping a firearm to a FFL, it might not also apply to a C&R long gun being shipped.

So, can you show me that 27545 applies to a firearm which is being shipped?

[Mssr. Eleganté]

Originally Posted by kemasa

...This all leads me to believe that 27545 does not apply in the case of a person shipping a firearm to a FFL and if it does not apply to a person shipping a firearm to a FFL, it might not also apply to a C&R long gun being shipped.

So, can you show me that 27545 applies to a firearm which is being shipped?

Do you agree that if 27545 doesn't apply to a C&R long gun being shipped then it also doesn't apply to a C&R handgun being shipped?

[kemasa]

27545 seems to apply to PPTs.

[kemasa]

FYI, I called the CA DOJ and they said that C&R long guns, not just those over 50 years old, can go directly to a CA C&R FFL holder.

[MudCamper]

Can a Californian non-FFL ship a C&R long gun to an 03 FFL in another state?

If so, how can you verify that a person is an 03 FFL? The ATF eZCheck does not work for 03 FFLs.