Bullpups and DOJ overall length definition...

[mshill]

{x) "Overall length of less than 30 inches" with respect to a centerfire rifle means the rifle has been measured in the shortest possible configuration that the weapon will function/fire and the measurement is less than 30 inches. Folding and telescoping stocks shall be collapsed prior to measurement. The approved method for measuring the length of the rifle is to measure the firearm from the end of the barrel, or permanently, attached muzzle device, if so ecquiped to that part of the stock that is furthest from the end of the barrel, or permanently attached muzzle device. (Prior to taking a measurement- the owner must. also check any muzzle devices for how they are attached to the barrel.

It seems to me that this may be a new definition requiring the muzzle device to be permanently attached to reach the 30" oal requirement.

This becomes problematic for bull pup owners that thought they were going to go featureless. To do so you would need to pin and weld your muzzle device.

This seems like the DOJ is trying to sneak some stuff in that was previously defined otherwise. This appears to give bullpup owners no choice but to register.

[SkylineGTR06]

I see it as a problem for the Tavor people, but AUG people with 20" barrels should be good.

What other bullpups are out there have the removable extension?

[pacrimguru]

"Overall length of less than 30 inches"... What does that even mean? Sounds to me that you can go less than 30". If they want a minimum of 30", wouldn't they write, "Overall length of a minimum of 30 inches"?


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[inferno999]

OP,
Where is this text from?

[Discogodfather]

It's confusing as hell. Previously AW was defined as 26" in length, and because of CA SBR laws you can't go underneath that. They always have measured the opposite of what the feds do. Federal law defines that the way to measure is at it's maximum length, i.e. you unfold or make the firearm adjust to it's maximum length. CA DOJ said measure when everything is at it's minimum, meaning folded or collapse,etc.

Maybe we need to ask the question more directly: what does the new language about length mean? Do you have to meet the definition of length without the muzzle attachment? Does it also mean mean that you can use the muzzle device in the length equation if you permanently attach it, but not if you don't?

I thought AW was 26" for the new "category" of AW? Am I wrong and it's still 30"?

[Quiet]

Originally Posted by Discogodfather

It's confusing as hell. Previously AW was defined as 26" in length, and because of CA SBR laws you can't go underneath that. They always have measured the opposite of what the feds do. Federal law defines that the way to measure is at it's maximum length, i.e. you unfold or make the firearm adjust to it's maximum length. CA DOJ said measure when everything is at it's minimum, meaning folded or collapse,etc.

Maybe we need to ask the question more directly: what does the new language about length mean? Do you have to meet the definition of length without the muzzle attachment? Does it also mean mean that you can use the muzzle device in the length equation if you permanently attach it, but not if you don't?

I thought AW was 26" for the new "category" of AW? Am I wrong and it's still 30"?

Since 01-01-2000, CA assault weapons laws have had a minimum 30" overall length requirement for semi-auto centerfire rifles.

CA SBR/SBS laws have a minimum 26" overall length requirement.

[Quiet]

Originally Posted by inferno999

OP,
Where is this text from?

From the new regulations that CA DOJ BOF released yesterday.


11 CCR 5471
For purpose of Penal Code section 30515 and this Chapter the following definitions shall apply:
(x) "Overall length of less than 30 inches" with respect to a centerfire rifle means the rifle has been measured in the shortest possible configuration that the weapon will function/fire and the measurement is less than 30 inches. Folding and telescoping stocks shall be collapsed prior to measurement. The approved method for measuring the length of the rifle is to measure the firearm from the end of the barrel, or permanently attached muzzle device, if so equipped, to that part of the stock that is furthest from the end of the barrel, or permanently attached muzzle device. (Prior to taking a measurement the owner must also check any muzzle devices for how they are attached to the barrel.)

[Discogodfather]

So this means that you have to meet 30" length without a detachable muzzle device. If you perm attach then you can use it in the overall length.

[Devon]

Sounds like you would have to make it permanent. But I always thought that was just for 16'' minimum barrel length, not OAL.

[mshill]

The text is from the "new" DOJ proposed AW regs.
The 30" minimum OAL (feature) has always been part of the CA AW law, however, I didn't think it required a permanent mzlle device to reach it.

[Devon]

They may as well state the the stock has to be permanently affixed then as well, same logic.

[Quiet]

In the past...
Feds required permanently attached muzzle devices to be included in a firearm's overall length.
CA did not require permanently attached muzzle devices to be included in a firearm's overall length.

With the new regulations, CA is adopting what the Feds required for measuring overall length in regards to muzzle devices.

[Quiet]

Seems to me...

If you have a featureless semi-auto centerfire rifle, then muzzle device needs to be permanently attached to meet the minimum 30" overall length requirement.

If you have a semi-auto centerfire rifle with a "bullet button" maglock and are registering it as an assault weapon, then the muzzle device does not need to be permanently attached to meet the minimum 30" overall length requirement.
^After it has been registered as an assault weapon, there is nothing in the new regulations that will prevent the removal of the muzzle device to reduce the overall length to 26" or greater.

[pacrimguru]

Prior to the 2017 regulations, it was my understanding that your BB rifle had to be at least 30" in length to avoid being classified as an AW. Therefore if it was under 30", it would be considered an AW, and had to be greater than 26" to avoid being an SBR. Incorrect?

[Quiet]

Originally Posted by pacrimguru

Prior to the 2017 regulations, it was my understanding that your BB rifle had to be at least 30" in length to avoid being classified as an AW. Therefore if it was under 30", it would be considered an AW, and had to be greater than 26" to avoid being an SBR. Incorrect?

That is correct.

SBR = overall length of less than 26"
AW (semi-auto centerfire rifle) = overall length less than 30" to 26".

[kayakbriang]

What is the opinion on registering a saiga 12 with bb and later converting to a bullpup stock, still with bb?

[Quiet]

Originally Posted by kayakbriang

What is the opinion on registering a saiga 12 with bb and later converting to a bullpup stock, still with bb?

Barrel length needs to be 18" or greater.
Overall length needs to be 26" or greater.

[b18rexracer]

So what does this all mean for the FN PS 90? They have 4" barrel extensions to make them 30" that are held on with a sleeve and set screws. Do I need to find some way to permanently attach it?

I was really hoping to ditch the extension and horrible BB after registering.

[Discogodfather]

Originally Posted by b18rexracer

So what does this all mean for the FN PS 90? They have 4" barrel extensions to make them 30" that are held on with a sleeve and set screws. Do I need to find some way to permanently attach it?

I was really hoping to ditch the extension and horrible BB after registering.

If it doesn't meet 30" without it than yes.

[Quiet]

Originally Posted by b18rexracer

So what does this all mean for the FN PS 90? They have 4" barrel extensions to make them 30" that are held on with a sleeve and set screws. Do I need to find some way to permanently attach it?

I was really hoping to ditch the extension and horrible BB after registering.

If you make it featureless, than you will need to permanently attach the barrel extension so that it makes the minimum 30" overall length.

If you register it as an assault weapon, then after it becomes a RAW; you need to keep the "bullet button" maglock + 10 round magazine, but it appears you can remove the barrel extension as long as the overall length is 26" or greater.

[tonyxcom]

What text in the new PC or new Regs lead you to believe RAW's need to be >30" when registered?

Is this because they aren't RAWs yet?

[pacrimguru]

Originally Posted by Quiet

That is correct.

SBR = overall length of less than 26"
AW (semi-auto centerfire rifle) = overall length less than 30" to 26".

Thanks for the clarification Q.

[Zyralius]

For featureless people where should one go to have it permanently attached?

[Zyralius]

Originally Posted by Quiet

If you make it featureless, than you will need to permanently attach the barrel extension so that it makes the minimum 30" overall length.



If you register it as an assault weapon, then after it becomes a RAW; you need to keep the "bullet button" maglock + 10 round magazine, but it appears you can remove the barrel extension as long as the overall length is 26" or greater.

How does this work if we need to send pictures of the rifle to be registered as RAW with the 30" OAL and muzzle break to meet compliant now but later take it off once registered? I thought you can't alter your rifle from the original picture you send into the DOJ when registering? Just wondering. Thanks.


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[Dump1567]

Originally Posted by Zyralius

How does this work if we need to send pictures of the rifle to be registered as RAW with the 30" OAL and muzzle break to meet compliant now but later take it off once registered? I thought you can't alter your rifle from the original picture you send into the DOJ when registering? Just wondering. Thanks.


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I don't know where people are getting that idea. All it says in the new Regs is that you can't change out the mag release (even though they argue a BB is just as fast as a regular mag release). People were buying lowers like crazy during the month of December and the DOJ knows this. I don't know where people got the idea they could register a stripped lower. It doesn't meet the definition of the new law.

Personally I think the pics are more for proof that you own a now registrable AW and not just a lower or parts kit. Like current AW's, you can do whatever you want to it.

People forget that when the CA 2000 AW registration took affect, the Federal assault weapons ban was in effect. If you didn't own a pre-ban AW, you were limited to two features under Fed. law. When that expired in 2004, all those CA registered fixed stocked AR's quickly had collapsible stocks and flash hiders installed. Still within the definition of the CA assault weapon.

So I don't see how the CA DOJ can limit you to what you can do with your firearm after registration. Did anyone keep their off roster single shot pistol a single shot after they picked it up? Also something registered with the DOJ to conform to the law, and than quickly changed and still conforms to the law.

Again, all my opinion.

[Drew Eckhardt]

Originally Posted by Zyralius

How does this work if we need to send pictures of the rifle to be registered as RAW with the 30" OAL and muzzle break to meet compliant now but later take it off once registered?

I thought you can't alter your rifle from the original picture you send into the DOJ when registering?

You can do anything which isn't prohibited by law or regulation, and only replacing the magazine release is forbidden by the proposed 11 CCR 5477.

5477. Registration of Assault wapons Pursuant to Peanl Code Section 30900(b)(1) Post-Registration Modification of Registered Assault Weapons, Prohibition.
(a) The release mechanism for an amunition feeding device on an assault weapon registered pursuant to Penal Code section 30900, subdivision (b)(1) shall not be changed after the assault weapon is registered

At this point the pictures are just required to prevent people from registering stripped lowers.

5477 is a tactical attempt to make poorly written law function as legislators wanted and strategic push to expand the California executive branch's legislative power.

[Zyralius]

Originally Posted by Drew Eckhardt

You can do anything which isn't prohibited by law or regulation, and only replacing the magazine release is forbidden by the proposed 11 CCR 5477.







At this point the pictures are just required to prevent people from registerring stripped lowers.

Still undecided. Anyone know someone in Sacramento that can drill, pin and weld my brake on my Tavor?


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[rromeo]

With the stripped lowers, I figure that most people figured it would be easy, just send in serial numbers and build later. Like in '86 with the machine gun cutoff, receivers and sears were being made to the minimum just to get registered in time. I know of a guy that has at least 500 registered machine guns, and a lot of them are just flat pieces of metal.

[Iggy_M]

Originally Posted by Quiet

If you make it featureless, than you will need to permanently attach the barrel extension so that it makes the minimum 30" overall length.

If you register it as an assault weapon, then after it becomes a RAW; you need to keep the "bullet button" maglock + 10 round magazine, but it appears you can remove the barrel extension as long as the overall length is 26" or greater.

So what if our gun is 30" without the muzzle device? Like my Ar anf Ak. If i go featurless i need to weld/pin it?

[Zyralius]

Originally Posted by Iggy_M

So what if our gun is 30" without the muzzle device? Like my Ar anf Ak. If i go featurless i need to weld/pin it?

If already 30" without muzzle brake you should be good to go. This mainly pertains to bullpup as they are now changing it that if you don't register it, you will have to have at least 30" OAL without muzzle device. This was never a issue before 2017. As long as the brake makes the rifle 30" and your barrel it at least 16" it didn't need to be permanently attached. It's when you had a 14.5" barrel then it would as it needs to be 16" barrel OAL in CA.


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[Malthusian]

Originally Posted by Drew Eckhardt

You can do anything which isn't prohibited by law or regulation, and only replacing the magazine release is forbidden by the proposed 11 CCR 5477.



At this point the pictures are just required to prevent people from registering stripped lowers.

5477 is a tactical attempt to make poorly written law function as legislators wanted and strategic push to expand the California executive branch's legislative power.

Well said

The CADOJ wants as much information as possible

The guys who bought 26 lowers in Dec, will need to show they are complete and functional "all at the same time" by Dec 31st, 2016 to register as AW's in 2017

CA Law usually never states what is allowed, only what is not allowed

LEO's will not have a photograph of the AW, only a serial number to reference

[AlexDD]

Originally Posted by Quiet

Seems to me...

If you have a featureless semi-auto centerfire rifle, then muzzle device needs to be permanently attached to meet the minimum 30" overall length requirement.

If you have a semi-auto centerfire rifle with a "bullet button" maglock and are registering it as an assault weapon, then the muzzle device does not need to be permanently attached to meet the minimum 30" overall length requirement.
^After it has been registered as an assault weapon, there is nothing in the new regulations that will prevent the removal of the muzzle device to reduce the overall length to 26" or greater.

Assume for featureless you are correct. Measurements are from end of stock to end of barrel or permanently affixed device.

So yesterday, those with featureless Tavors, AUGs, FS2000 that had an unpinned extended muzzle brake were legal.

Today they wake up to find they are in possession of an assault weapon?

So with 2 days notice on a holiday weekend, DOJ gets to make them in violation.

So if they fix after today, longer barrel, fixed device, longer stock, have they have still violated the law. Where does the law allow a grace period to fix? It seems no matter what they do now at the stroke of midnight are f'd

What charge?

1.) Possession
2.) Manufacturing - not sure - would that be ex-post facto? They manufactured prior if they did the work (converted from BB to featureless prior 1/1/17)

My assumption is the definitions have the force law as of today.




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[mshill]

Originally Posted by AlexDD

Assume for featureless you are correct. Measurements are from end of stock to end of barrel or permanently affixed device.

So yesterday, those with featureless Tavors, AUGs, FS2000 that had an unpinned extended muzzle brake were legal.

Today they wake up to find they are in possession of an assault weapon?

So with 2 days notice on a holiday weekend, DOJ gets to make them in violation.

So if they fix after today, longer barrel, fixed device, longer stock, have they have still violated the law. Where does the law allow a grace period to fix? It seems no matter what they do now at the stroke of midnight are f'd

What charge?

1.) Possession
2.) Manufacturing - not sure - would that be ex-post facto? They manufactured prior if they did the work (converted from BB to featureless prior 1/1/17)

My assumption is the definitions have the force law as of today.

This guy gets it. This was something that was legally possessed between 1/1/2001 and 12/31/2016 that did not meet the (new) definition of an AW that is now an AW due to the regulation.

Seems to me that the DOJ would have to allow the registration of what was a previously featureless SACF rifle (without a BB) because it now has an OAL <30".

[b18rexracer]

Regarding the FN rifle it has a 16" barrel and a 26" OAL without the barrel extension. I always assumed I'd have to register it but I didn't think I'd have to weld/pin the barrel extension on it or buy a 4" brake or a 20" barrel. But from the conversations in this thread it seemed like that when I first posted my question.

Now people are saying if you register then 26" OAL is ok.

How are you suppose to get actual clear answers on ANY of this stuff without accidentally incriminating yourself?

[Zyralius]

I guess wait and see.


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[mshill]

Originally Posted by b18rexracer

Regarding the FN rifle it has a 16" barrel and a 26" OAL without the barrel extension. I always assumed I'd have to register it but I didn't think I'd have to weld/pin the barrel extension on it or buy a 4" brake or a 20" barrel. But from the conversations in this thread it seemed like that when I first posted my question.

Only to be featureless.

Now people are saying if you register then 26" OAL is ok.

After AW registration is complete.

How are you suppose to get actual clear answers on ANY of this stuff without accidentally incriminating yourself?

As for my used to be featureless Tavor, I register as is and they either accept it without a BB or reject it as still featureless thereby negating their own regulation (<30" with non-permanent muzzle device. Either way I still have a Tavor with a standard mag release, and documents to support its legality.

[Zyralius]

As for my used to be featureless Tavor, I register as is and they either accept it without a BB or reject it as still featureless thereby negating their own regulation (<30" with non-permanent muzzle device. Either way I still have a Tavor with a standard mag release, and documents to support its legality.

Wait what? You registered yours already? Let me know. I am undecided because I only considered registering my Tavor if I can remove the 5" brake and have a regular mag release.




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[AlexDD]

Originally Posted by mshill

Only to be featureless.





After AW registration is complete.







As for my used to be featureless Tavor, I register as is and they either accept it without a BB or reject it as still featureless thereby negating their own regulation (<30" with non-permanent muzzle device. Either way I still have a Tavor with a standard mag release, and documents to support its legality.

Couldn't they charge you with possession of an assault rifle?

You would have to pay legal costs to defend and risk conviction.


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[AlexDD]

This assumes you don't pin the brake


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[mshill]

Originally Posted by Zyralius

Wait what? You registered yours already? Let me know. I am undecided because I only considered registering my Tavor if I can remove the 5" brake and have a regular mag release.

"I register...", as in will register. My goal is the same as yours...