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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 04-01-2020, 12:51 PM
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Default Screwed with gun sales cap

Hello

The new law Senate Bill 376 (SB376) effective Jan 1, 2020 screwed me over.

SB 376: Prevents individuals from selling large numbers of firearms without a license by capping the number of annual sales allowed at five transactions or 50 firearms. It also caps the number of firearms an individual can manufacture each year at 50. It will also close a loophole that allows firearms to be auctioned or raffled off without a background check.

I sold/traded 4 guns out of 5 cap so far this year already not knowing this law

This law is exactly opposite of what America stands for! Free-market economy.
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  #2  
Old 04-01-2020, 12:57 PM
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You're assuming Commiefornia is part of the United States. You can sell multiple guns per transaction though.
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Old 04-01-2020, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by LongLiveTheRepublic View Post
You're assuming Commiefornia is part of the United States. You can sell multiple guns per transaction though.
True, but not many people want to buy multiple guns at same time and it's harder to find a buyer who has that much cash to spend on guns.

This law sucks. Does intrafamily transfer count against this 5 per year cap? I hope not.
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Old 04-01-2020, 1:01 PM
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"How are they gonna know if you sell at different FFLs? They can't keep track of that" This is what I heard from local FFL dealer lol. That FFL went out of business in 2013. I wonder why hahaha.

Last edited by H3baton; 04-01-2020 at 1:04 PM..
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  #5  
Old 04-01-2020, 1:04 PM
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California making selling Ammo capped and guns capped.

Can't even sell a box of .22lr 550rds.
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Old 04-01-2020, 1:17 PM
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Default Screwed with gun sales cap

Quote:
Originally Posted by kel-tec-innovations View Post
California making selling Ammo capped and guns capped.

Can't even sell a box of .22lr 550rds.

Yea I heard selling ammo is super difficult here. I bought bunch of steel cased ammo WOLF brand that I couldn’t shoot at local ranges so I looked into selling but that was even more difficult. Why doesn’t California government trust the system ?!! We have 10 day background checks in FFL’s to sell guns


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  #7  
Old 04-01-2020, 1:30 PM
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These laws capping sales of ammo and guns, despite the fact all must go through an FFL and background check, are irrational and likely would be struck down even under intermediate scrutiny.

There is simply no rational explanation behind the purpose of these laws in the current California regulatory framework. I suspect they have no be challenged because there are bigger fish the major 2nd Am rights groups are frying right now, and no individual could justify the time and money to challenge the law.

So many lawsuits, and so little time!
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  #8  
Old 04-01-2020, 3:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elgatodeacero View Post
These laws capping sales of ammo and guns, despite the fact all must go through an FFL and background check, are irrational and likely would be struck down even under intermediate scrutiny.

There is simply no rational explanation behind the purpose of these laws in the current California regulatory framework. I suspect they have no be challenged because there are bigger fish the major 2nd Am rights groups are frying right now, and no individual could justify the time and money to challenge the law.

So many lawsuits, and so little time!

Ah I hope they get around soon and get rid of this


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  #9  
Old 04-01-2020, 4:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uscmarine View Post
Does intrafamily transfer count against this 5 per year cap? I hope not.
(Just as a matter of form, SB 376 is no more. The affected section of statute is Penal Code 16730, which was a part of SB 376).

Inter-familial transfers and transmutation to spouse are operations of law and aren't impacted by the statute.

CA PEN 16730.
Quote:
16730 (a) As used in Section 31815 and in Division 6 (commencing with Section 26500) of Title 4, “infrequent” means both of the following are true:
CA PEN 26505.
Quote:
Section 26500 does not apply to the sale, lease, or transfer of any firearm by any of the following:
(a) A person acting pursuant to operation of law.
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  #10  
Old 04-01-2020, 5:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elgatodeacero View Post
These laws capping sales of ammo and guns, despite the fact all must go through an FFL and background check, are irrational and likely would be struck down even under intermediate scrutiny.

There is simply no rational explanation behind the purpose of these laws in the current California regulatory framework. I suspect they have no (sic) be challenged because there are bigger fish the major 2nd Am rights groups are frying right now, and no individual could justify the time and money to challenge the law.

So many lawsuits, and so little time!
I suspect you may not be aware of Rhode v. Becerra, which was filed at the end of April 2018.

Quote:
The filing of Rhode marks the fourth lawsuit filed challenging the provisions of Proposition 63 and the other “Gunmageddon” gun control bills. One such lawsuit, titled Duncan v. Becerra, has already succeeded in obtaining an important injunction against Proposition 63’s ban on the possession of magazines capable of holding more than ten rounds. ( Oral arguments in Duncan are tomorrow -- April 2, 2020) The other two lawsuits, titled Rupp v. Becerra and Villanueva v. Becerra (both of which challenge California’s “assault weapon” restrictions and registration requirements), are also seeking injunctions while those lawsuits are pending.
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  #11  
Old 04-01-2020, 5:38 PM
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Is the 5 sale transactions per year part of that lawsuit? I didn’t think it was. That was what I was referring to above.
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Old 04-01-2020, 7:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elgatodeacero View Post
Is the 5 sale transactions per year part of that lawsuit? I didn’t think it was. That was what I was referring to above.

This will be good to know?


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  #13  
Old 04-01-2020, 8:39 PM
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Curio and Relics 03 FFL is your friend.
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Old 04-01-2020, 9:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TKM View Post
Curio and Relics 03 FFL is your friend.

What are the advantages??


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Old 04-02-2020, 5:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TKM View Post
Curio and Relics 03 FFL is your friend.
Quote:
Originally Posted by uscmarine View Post
What are the advantages??
C&R 03-FFL + COE Privileges in 2019 California
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Old 04-02-2020, 5:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uscmarine View Post
The new law Senate Bill 376 (SB376) effective Jan 1, 2020 screwed me over.

I sold/traded 4 guns out of 5 cap so far this year already not knowing this law
Were you intending to sell long guns or handguns?
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Old 04-02-2020, 8:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
Were you intending to sell long guns or handguns?

Both I sold 3 long guns and 2 handguns and I want to sell another handgun but I can’t cause 5 cap counts both long and handguns


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  #18  
Old 04-02-2020, 8:10 AM
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I had no trouble selling my tula and wolf magnetic ammo. Did you even try or just like to whine?
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Old 04-03-2020, 1:22 PM
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Does anyone know consignment to pawn shop or gun shop counts toward the 5 sale legal cap limit?


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Old 04-03-2020, 1:55 PM
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I'm just curious. Has anyone been jammed up making more than 5 sales? What happens at 6th sale? I get the reasoning of the state to prevent creating a non licensed business i.e. leo selling off roster as a side gig. But a guy who lost his job, needing to sell his personal guns to make ends meet. I would think they would take that into account in an investigation.

Is there a mechanism built into the dros system to stop it at transaction time?

If not, I would imagine it is just something that an investigator could use to leverage charges at a later date with discretion to the situation.

Is there any case law?
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Old 04-03-2020, 1:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pythonfan View Post
I'm just curious. Has anyone been jammed up making more than 5 sales? What happens at 6th sale? I get the reasoning of the state to prevent creating a non licensed business i.e. leo selling off roster as a side gig. But a guy who lost his job, needing to sell his personal guns to make ends meet. I would think they would take that into account in an investigation.

Is there a mechanism built into the dros system to stop it at transaction time?

If not, I would imagine it is just something that an investigator could use to leverage charges at a later date with discretion to the situation.

Is there any case law?

I’m curious too. With the current situation, I’m trying to get rid of my collection. I’m about to do my 6th transaction but I don’t want to break the law. can anyone advise?


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Old 04-03-2020, 2:00 PM
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Especially when the state created the situation of said person to lose their job in the first place.....S.I.P. orders and all.

I have zero knowledge on the matter. So take what I say with a grain of salt.

I have known Leo's my whole life and taken administration of justice classes. It is my understanding that there are many penal codes written to create a crime if needed. Most of the time with those laws it is up to the officers discretion using what's called "spirit of the law" to file a charge. Would this be such a scenario? I dont know.

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Old 04-03-2020, 2:36 PM
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Originally Posted by pythonfan View Post
Especially when the state created the situation of said person to lose their job in the first place.....S.I.P. orders and all.

I have zero knowledge on the matter. So take what I say with a grain of salt.

I have known Leo's my whole life and taken administration of justice classes. It is my understanding that there are many penal codes written to create a crime if needed. Most of the time with those laws it is up to the officers discretion using what's called "spirit of the law" to file a charge. Would this be such a scenario? I dont know.

https://kymkemp.com/2019/10/11/new-l...nerals-office/


According to this interpretation of the law, we violate the law if we conduct more than 5 transactions per year.


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Old 04-03-2020, 2:58 PM
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Dang it. I always forget that applying "common sense" is the wrong thing to do when it comes to california.
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Old 04-03-2020, 5:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pythonfan View Post
I'm just curious. Has anyone been jammed up making more than 5 sales? What happens at 6th sale?
Is there a mechanism built into the dros system to stop it at transaction time?
Is there any case law?
Quote:
Originally Posted by uscmarine View Post
I’m curious too. I’m about to do my 6th transaction but I don’t want to break the law. can anyone advise?
Not many is gonna answer these question on an open public forum (some did). You have to decide what is "best" for you. Roll the dice? risk/reward? Lastly, invest the time on Calguns or invest the time reading past posts, maybe you'll get your answer.
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Old 04-03-2020, 8:32 PM
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I've made similar mistakes OP. But sorry, this is still the US of A. Even when the rules frustrate me, it's not the having to comply that bugs me. It's the, forgive the pun, constant moving target.

You think you have a plan. You think you've got it sorted, optimized etc.. How to make the best of whatever the rules are. Then suddenly, no, that not the rules now. . . .
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Old 04-04-2020, 5:53 AM
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So you weren't paying attention to the draconian laws being passed and now you are here to complain about it.



Seems legit.
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Old 04-04-2020, 6:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elgatodeacero View Post
These laws capping sales of ammo and guns, despite the fact all must go through an FFL and background check,.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elgatodeacero View Post
Is the 5 sale transactions per year part of that lawsuit? I didn’t think it was. That was what I was referring to above.
Rhode is about the ammo laws you referenced.

The restriction of less than 6 handgun transactions (without a 50-gun cap) has been in place for years, with no legal challenges to it. The restriction on long guns came into effect on 1/1/2020, redefining the “intermittent” definition for long guns to less than 6 transactions per year, and applying it to all firearms. With the other social challenges in this state/nation, it seems improbable that a legal challenge would be raised.

Best.
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Old 04-04-2020, 6:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uscmarine View Post
https://kymkemp.com/2019/10/11/new-l...nerals-office/

According to this interpretation of the law, we violate the law if we conduct more than 5 transactions per year.

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You don’t really need a legal opinion on this.

Here’s the Statute:
Quote:
16730.
(a) As used in Section 31815 and in Division 6 (commencing with Section 26500) of Title 4, “infrequent” means both of the following are true:
(1) The person conducts less than six transactions per calendar year.
(2) The person sells, leases, or transfers no more than 50 total firearms per calendar year.
(b) As used in this section, “transaction” means a single sale, lease, or transfer of any number of firearms
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Old 04-04-2020, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
You don’t really need a legal opinion on this.

Here’s the Statute:

So it would be “frequent” if I sell my 6th gun this year with 6th transaction?
And since I am a “frequent” seller, what are the consequences?
1. Prosecuted?
2. The DROS will be denied?

I can’t find any of these useful information but just interpretation of the law.


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Old 04-04-2020, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Marine View Post
So you weren't paying attention to the draconian laws being passed and now you are here to complain about it.



Seems legit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Marine View Post
So you weren't paying attention to the draconian laws being passed and now you are here to complain about it.



Seems legit.

I didn’t know until I read this thread on this forum. I would hate to get NJP from selling too many guns
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Old 04-04-2020, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uscmarine View Post
So it would be “frequent” if I sell my 6th gun this year with 6th transaction?
And since I am a “frequent” seller, what are the consequences?
1. Prosecuted?
2. The DROS will be denied?

I can’t find any of these useful information but just interpretation of the law.


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FWIW:

From what I have read here, you can be prosecuted, but it rarely happens.
There was a police officer overdoing it that was busted.
There are several threads here discussing it, with many members saying they have never had a problem going over the limit.

I have not heard of any DROS being denied for this.

The risk is apparently low, but...….
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Old 04-04-2020, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sfe187 View Post
Not many is gonna answer these question on an open public forum (some did). You have to decide what is "best" for you. Roll the dice? risk/reward? Lastly, invest the time on Calguns or invest the time reading past posts, maybe you'll get your answer.

https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/....php?t=1579631

He did post it and I want to know what happened


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Old 04-04-2020, 1:32 PM
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You'll be fine. It's a way for them to flag people essentially functioning as a licensed FFL without actually having a license. The system doesn't instantly deny you after 5 or 50.
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Old 04-04-2020, 1:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uscmarine View Post
So it would be “frequent” if I sell my 6th gun this year with 6th transaction?
And since I am a “frequent” seller, what are the consequences?
1. Prosecuted?
2. The DROS will be denied?

I can’t find any of these useful information but just interpretation of the law.

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The language of the statutes seems useful.

Quote:
26500. (a) No person shall sell, lease, or transfer firearms unless the person has been issued a license pursuant to Article 1 (commencing with Section 26700) and Article 2 (commencing with Section 26800) of Chapter 2.

(b) Any person violating this article is guilty of a misdemeanor.

26520. (a) Section 26500 does not apply to the infrequent sale, lease, or transfer of firearms.

(b) As used in this section, “infrequent” has the meaning provided in Section 16730.
With the 6th transaction, you are no longer "infrequent", and the exemption in 26520 goes away. At that point, the DOJ can halt the transfer and charge you with a misdemeanor for sales without a license. Misdemeanor can result in a fine up to $1,000 and up to 6 months in jail.

(I'm sure they have another list they'll put you on.)

The past language of the statute limited handgun sales to less than 6, but held long guns to, "For firearms other than handguns, occasional and without regularity." Now, that language is gone an DOJ no longer has any leeway in interpreting the statute. (It's also important to note that DOJ was the SPONSOR of the bill...they wrote it and got the legislature to pass it. It seems improbable that they wouldn't enforce it.)

Postings on this subject:
April 2016

June 2016
Jan 2009
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Old 04-04-2020, 1:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
The language of the statutes seems useful.



With the 6th transaction, you are no longer "infrequent", and the exemption in 26520 goes away. At that point, the DOJ can halt the transfer and charge you with a misdemeanor for sales without a license. Misdemeanor can result in a fine up to $1,000 and up to 6 months in jail.

(I'm sure they have another list they'll put you on.)

The past language of the statute limited handgun sales to less than 6, but held long guns to, "For firearms other than handguns, occasional and without regularity." Now, that language is gone an DOJ no longer has any leeway in interpreting the statute. (It's also important to note that DOJ was the SPONSOR of the bill...they wrote it and got the legislature to pass it. It seems improbable that they wouldn't enforce it.)

Postings on this subject:
April 2016

June 2016
Jan 2009

Thanks for the help with interpretation. Although many says it’s ok, I think you’re right. I don’t want to risk getting a misdemeanor with fine up to $1000 and up to 6 months in jail. That would be horrible. I won’t do the 6th transaction selling my 6th gun and just wait till next year. Thanks for clarification


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Old 04-05-2020, 4:41 AM
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Not being able to sell personal property is just part of ...shall not be infringed"...
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Old 04-05-2020, 12:26 PM
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uscmarine uscmarine is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ja308 View Post
Not being able to sell personal property is just part of ...shall not be infringed"...

This restriction on selling personal property is more of infringement to me than having to build my featureless AR or coping with 10 round magazines for me, personally...


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