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FFL's Forum For open discussion between FFLs and polite questions for FFLs. |
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Dispute with gun broker seller over legality of DPMS Panther Arms
Although I admire the courage of this GB seller I attempted to educate this particular seller that the rifle is illegal in CA because it is banned by make(dpms) and model(panther arms). He replied that he has sold several to CA buyers and to some FFls. I have supported by argument based on the Cal guns flow chart, CA DOJ make and model ban list and the Kasler case, but he seems to disagree based on his recent revision of the item's description claiming that it is not an AR15, but an A-15.
The link that shows the rifle is this: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=339923343 My fellow cal gunners I would appreciate your input on this. |
#2
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If it truly is a DPMS A-15, it is legal, at least according to Shotgun News. http://www.shotgunnews.com/2011/11/2...egal-firearms/
I would want to see a an up close picture of the stamp on the receiver just to make sure the one being sold is indeed the legal A-15 and not the banned AR15. The one the seller is showing has the panther stamped on the receiver and the one Shotgun News discusses does not have a panther stamped on the receiver. The seller looks to be offering a DPMS AR-15 with a BB so it is essentially becomes the DPMS-A15. Those of us from this Socialist State of Kalifornia know this is not good enough for our overlords. It has to be the exact model identifiable by the correct stamp on the receiver. I will not risk my gun rights based on what an out of state seller says. He is not risking it all on whether or not it is an AR-15 modified to be an A-15 or an actual A-15. |
#3
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He would need to send us a picture of the model number. If it says Model: A-15, then you are wrong and he is correct. If it says "Panther" then it is an assault weapon. A DPMS AR15 is not banned either unless it is a DPMS AR15 Panther.
I have a feeling you are wrong. I think the logo says DPMS Panther Arms but then the model says Model: A-15. That makes it an off list lower. Further, I believe that is a factory DPMS rifle, which makes you further incorrect as indeed, hundreds or even thousands of CA FLLs have sold those rifles including myself. If we knew the item number we could look it up too. I bet it is RFTL-OC which makes it perfectly CA legal. Be sure to apologize if he is correct.
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www.tenpercentfirearms.com was open from 2005 until 2018. I now own Westside Arms. Last edited by tenpercentfirearms; 05-05-2013 at 6:41 AM.. |
#4
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Kimber8400,
Were you going to BUY this rifle? Or did you just ASSUME it was your responsibility to EDUCATE said seller?
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A large caliber is good to have, but its SHOT PLACEMENT that counts! |
#5
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Then he went ahead and changed the item description to "A-15" which is not clear to see on the lower receiver or even on the box. So by looking at this objectively and assuming that this rifle is "A-15" legal, the seller should have been more detailed in the description especially when he is advertising to state of CA where some models of this make is banned. Last edited by KIMBER8400; 05-05-2013 at 10:52 AM.. Reason: make/model |
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And as far as assuming responsibility to educate, I call it as I see it; had the seller fulfilled his duty to completely describe the said product we would not have had the conversation. |
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This quote relates to the issue at hand:
Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein
__________________
Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#11
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Agree,
However, if it's not apparent that the student is a "pig" then I guess you take your chances. The issue that I have with this type of business is that (assuming the rifle is banned) the state of CA is not gonna go after the out of state seller, but it will most definitely go after the purchaser. |
#12
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Further, who makes CA compliant, Bullet Button rifles that are not CA legal? Factory DPMS Bullet Button rifles are legal in CA. Glad you are the GunBroker police. What is your Gunbroker handle again? And hey, it is your time. If you want to crusade on GunBroker, go for it. I don't care. However, if you want to make hit peice threads, I have the time to counter you. Quote:
Really, you are just the Gunbroker item description police. The gun was legal, you just didn't realize it.
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www.tenpercentfirearms.com was open from 2005 until 2018. I now own Westside Arms. |
#13
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It is true that factory dpms with BB is legal in CA, but those rifles have no "panther arms" stamp on it, the lower receiver on those legal rifles just states DPMS without "panther arms." As far as being the police, I am far from it. If you care to read the contents of my replies, I wanted to buy the rifle. And my intention of making this thread was to receive objective and impartial feed back from the CA FFL community and I want to thank for all your inputs, including yours tenpercent, however your arguments are kind of biased and subjective. Put yourself in the shoes of a reasonable CA firearm purchaser and argue objectively instead of from the point of view of the FFL. When I purchase goods especially when the transaction is conducted via internet, I expect the seller to fully describe the product. The seller in question failed to do so as it is evidenced by his actions after I brought up the issue. He amended the description which proves that he felt the description did not fully disclose the product. |
#14
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If it didn't say "Model: A-15", then I might find it a little more gray area with the words Panther Arms on it. However, it is clearly an A-15 model made by DPMS Panther Arms. Quote:
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What is your GunBroker handle again?
__________________
www.tenpercentfirearms.com was open from 2005 until 2018. I now own Westside Arms. |
#15
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This is the actual picture advertized and the only one that somewhat shows the relevant part of the receiver. I can see that is says panther arms with the logo of the panther. Now can you see that is says A-15? You either assumed that is says A-15 or the seller sent you some better looking pictures that says A-15. If you do have these images, why don't you just post them and stop playing Sherlock here. And my gun broker ID has nothing to do with this, stick to the topic. Reminder the subject of the thread is whether or not the said rifle is legal? |
#16
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Since when an argument based on legitimate supportive facts is harassment? Boy, he really did cry on your shoulder didn't he? I guess I hurt his feelings because my email was kind of confrontational. I made a thread about it because I wanted to know whether or not it was legal. And the only reason I have posted the link to his gun broker item is because that was the disputed item. And he should not have a problem with this because he is advertizing the gun to CA buyers, so I actually broadened his potential buyers. The next post that you make support it with facts and stick to the subject at hand. |
#17
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The gun in the pic is CA legal. I have bought this same gun in and sold lots of them. I have also had dealing with this seller and he is a stand up guy and knows his stuff. His ADD / user name also states he is a FFL. So with that said If he is saying it's CA legal it is! As he as a FFL would be in DEEP do do if he shipped a AW into CA.
I am sorry that you though he should have posted more info. But the long and short of it is he did post the most important info "CA compliant" So cut the guy some slack!!!!!!!! it's post and BS like this that makes most dealers take the stand that they wont ship ANYTHING to CA. |
#18
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No it's post like this that hold the FFLs to a high standard and compel them what they are supposed to do in the first place, to describe the item properly. Since this is a disputed item, the item was not described properly he should have provided more detailed information on its legality. Just a statement form an out of state FFL saying it's CA compliant doesn't make it CA compliant. |
#19
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The ban list says DPMS: Panther (all). So, it is quite likely that it would be considered to be banned if it has the word "Panther" on it.
It is a valid concern and while some FFLs might transfer firearms with the word "Panther" on it, it does not make it legal and it is begging for a problem. A non-CA FFL is not going to always know the law and there are CA FFLs who play fast and loose with the law, so if you want to bet that because the person is a FFL and because he says it is CA legal and not check it out further, then go right ahead, but that is a bit of a gamble. I received a lower from a big company which was banned by name. Fortunately it was only a lower, so it was not a problem, other than having to ship it back, but people make mistakes and some just don't care or think that the law is something other than what it is.
__________________
Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#20
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http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...x?User=2437193 Interesting GunBroker Handle. The gun is legal and always has been. Move along if you are not satisfied with the seller's description and send him a note that you won't bid on his items because he isn't descriptive enough. Anything more and you are being the CACOMPLIANT police. FUD. Otherwise anything with DPMS would be banned. It must be the specific make and model number. A DPMS must have the model Panther in it. These rifles clearly state "Model: A-15". They are made by DPMS Panther Arms. So they are not Panther Models. If anything they might be Panther Arms Models, but that is not Panther (all). That would be Panther Arms (all).
__________________
www.tenpercentfirearms.com was open from 2005 until 2018. I now own Westside Arms. Last edited by tenpercentfirearms; 05-06-2013 at 4:45 PM.. |
#21
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DPMS is the manufacturer. Panther Arms is basically a model of DPMS. Panther (all) would include Panther Arms (all).
__________________
Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#22
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Second, this is a forum where legitimate concerns about topic such as this can be raised, if you have any concerns address your complains with the mods. The gun has been legal and always has been? That is your opinion on the topic? Where does it clearly state MODEL A-15? And they are not made by DPMS Panther Arms, they are made by DPMS and given a model as Panther Arms. I don't think you comprehend the law very well. It bans make DPMS and model Panther (all), which means all Panther models, which means all lower receivers that has panther arms stamped on them, which means this very rifle. Now pay close attention to this quote, one wise man in another forum said, and I couldn't agree more, "opinion untempered by fact is ignorance." BTW thanks for advertising my GB ID, make sure you look at my merchandize. Last edited by KIMBER8400; 05-06-2013 at 5:49 PM.. Reason: thanks for the ad |
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Epic fail for you two. Panther Arms is not a model. It is a manufacturer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DPMS_Panther_Arms So DPMS Panther Arms is a make of firearm. DPMS Panther Arms Panther would be the make and model that is banned (but even that is debatable since the sole company DPMS is banned, not DPMS Panther Arms). So a DPMS Panther Arms A-15 is not listed in any way, shape, or form. Kind of disparaging neither of you knew this, but I guess that is why you are here, to get educated. So when a guy named CACOMPLIANT starts messaging people that they are selling illegal firearms that are actually distributed by the manufacturer as a CA legal model, that seems pretty much exactly like someone being the CACOMPLIANT police. It is cool that you do that. I believe in liberty and that you can do that. Let's just be clear on what you are up to.
__________________
www.tenpercentfirearms.com was open from 2005 until 2018. I now own Westside Arms. |
#24
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Now as my cousin Vinnie says your argument will not hold water because Wikipedia sources are neither binding nor persuasive on the court. Step up your research skills. The law is very clear on this issue and no matter how the DPMS twists their company name to get around it, the fact still is that the lower receiver has the panther arms stamp - banned. If one is paranoid about what they do of course they are going to think that the police is after them when another seller in GB with CACOMPLIANT ID as a courtesy emails the cal guns flow chart and the doj ban list. |
#25
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http://www.impactguns.com/dpms-panth...451004790.aspx
This link shows CACOMPLIANT DPMS. IF the make of the gun is DPMS panther arms why it only says DPMS on this model? U guessed it right to make it CACOMPLIANT. |
#26
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The DPMS web page says DPMS Panther Arms, not just Panther Arms. It appears to be a model line for DPMS. See: http://www.dpmsinc.com There is also a picture of a rifle which has on it DPMS Panther Arms (tm). Typically, a company name is not a trademark. Here is the trademark: http://trademarks.justia.com/857/62/...-85762282.html DPMS sells firearms without the name Panther Arms. Can you find a firearm which does not have DPMS on it and which it is marked "Panther Arms"? Here is the history of DPMS from DPMS: http://www.dpmsinc.com/Company-History_ep_48-1.html No mention of Panther Arms. So, it seems that you are the one who has failed unless you can show a manufacturer called "Panther Arms", other than DPMS.
__________________
Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein Last edited by kemasa; 05-07-2013 at 10:58 AM.. |
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Of course you can't. What is clear about this is the Harrott decision. Quote:
So when a rifle says, DPMS Panther Arms Mod: A-15, that is no way an assault weapon. That is the beauty of the Kasler List. You are either on it or you are not. As much as some people on the Internet like to spread FUD, it simply isn't true. Quote:
DPMS Panther Arms Mod: A-15 And finally, if you don't believe Wikipedia, no biggie, a simple search of the Minnesota Secretary of State website shows a incorporation filing for DPMS/Panther Arms. http://mblsportal.sos.state.mn.us/Bu...6-001ec94ffe7f I am sorry you guys can't do a little extrapoloation and figure out that it was originally DPMS Panther Arms until the Cerberus Capital Management bought it and combined it with the Freedom Group. Go through the Minnesota Secretary of State's website and the evidence is clearly there. My favorite is that Manufacturers are rarely trademarked. LOL!!! http://www.trademarks411.com/marks/8...s-panther-arms Guess who owns the TM for DPMS Panther Arms? RA Brands LLC. Guess what else they own? http://www.trademarks411.com/tradema...rands%2C+L.L.C. Remington Remington doesn't make guns, that is the model number. LOL!
__________________
www.tenpercentfirearms.com was open from 2005 until 2018. I now own Westside Arms. Last edited by tenpercentfirearms; 05-07-2013 at 12:30 PM.. |
#28
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I bought this rifle as a PPT at Ammo Bros. a few months ago. I sold it shortly afterwards. The rifle said DMPS Panther Arms as did all of the literature that came with it and the box (including the Panther Arms supplemental handout that showed the user how to use the CA bullet button).
I have no idea why OP would ask the GB seller a question, not like his answer, and then whine about it here. No wonder CA gets such a crap reputation on national sites.
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NRA Benefactor Member |
#29
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op is not whining about it, op has a legitimate concern because the said rifle is on the ban list.
Read the thread thoroughly then make ur conclusions. You doing a ppt then selling it don't make it legal. If out of state FFLs cannot handle a simple question, then they shouldn't be in the business. The seller replied that since he sold several of these to ca that makes it legal. The thread was intended to clarify the issue and so far have not seen any good faith arguments for the proponents of the rifle. U don't have to post if u don't like the thread. |
#30
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It either has DPMS Panther Arms Mod:A-15 or it has a simple DPMS Mod:A-15. Either one is legal.
__________________
www.tenpercentfirearms.com was open from 2005 until 2018. I now own Westside Arms. |
#31
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For the millionth time the purpose of the thread is to find out whether it was legal. Objectively! I will respond to ur previous post. |
#32
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So the question is, was that the real purpose of this thread? Don't respond. I am trolling...for a response.
__________________
www.tenpercentfirearms.com was open from 2005 until 2018. I now own Westside Arms. |
#33
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DPMS is the name of the company, as your links actually shows. Interesting link. Who is the nameholder? What is the business type? So tell me what exactly you think that proves? What it actually shows is that DPMS/Panther Arm is NOT the actual name of the company. Business Type: Assumed Name Nameholder: DPMS/Firearms LLC So you are trying to claim that the real name is DPMS Panther Arms? But wait, the links you provided show that is NOT the case and that the name is DPMS without Panther Arms. Quote:
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__________________
Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#35
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DPMS Panther Arms built rifles and lowers as is evident by the photos of them in existence. That would explain why some newer guns no longer have the DPMS Panther Arms logo, but just DPMS. And it further proves that DPMS Panther Arms existed so it would not be a make and model number as you so erroneously claim. Quote:
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Well the CA Supreme Court ruled on this already. And as of right now, they have the last word on this. I base my knowledge off of their decisions. I am not quite sure what you are basing yours off of.
__________________
www.tenpercentfirearms.com was open from 2005 until 2018. I now own Westside Arms. Last edited by tenpercentfirearms; 05-07-2013 at 1:57 PM.. |
#37
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I just talked to a sales guy at DPMS. Their non-California guns still get the DPMS Panther Arms Mod:A-15. Their California guns get the DPMS Mod:A-15.
I still contend that is a CYA move to remove all doubt, but that no way proves that a DPMS Panther Arms Mod:A-15 is a DPMS Panther (all). It might help you to remember how they made the Kasler List. They went and looked through a Shotgun News and added names from the advertisements. It is not our fault they didn't know how to properly list model numbers. The DPMS guy said the A-15 on their lowers means nothing, their model numbers are actually the mix of letters like RFTL-OC or RFA3-OC. Again this whole discussion was the reason for the Harrott decision and Kasler List. It is too confusing so if the firearm is not specifically listed by make and model number, the courts are not to assume it is an AK/AR series.
__________________
www.tenpercentfirearms.com was open from 2005 until 2018. I now own Westside Arms. |
#38
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I don't frequent this FFL forum and tenpercent and i don't always see eye to eye but i can tell you this.
He knows what he speaks in regards to this OP. Wes, I know you are dedicated! Why entertain these trolls though?? |
#39
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Or are just using it because it's popular nowadays. |
#40
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I sure do!! Its someone like you arguing over something with an expert (tenpercentfirearms) about the legality of a rifle that is CLEARLY legal in the state of CA and you saying it isn't.
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