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Shotgun discussions Trap, Hunting, Defense and more. A place for enthusiasts to discuss the shotgun. |
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#81
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You can't compare civilian home defense with police and military work. Very different animals. |
#83
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"Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else." --FREDERIC BASTIAT-- Proud Life Member: National Rifle Association, the Second Amendment Foundation, and the California Rifle & Pistol Association |
#84
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#85
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__________________
"Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else." --FREDERIC BASTIAT-- Proud Life Member: National Rifle Association, the Second Amendment Foundation, and the California Rifle & Pistol Association |
#86
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And #8 bird shot while good for manual of arms practice should not be used as a home defense round due to the lack of mass of said pellet size. #4 Buckshot (not birdshot) is a very good option as an in home defensive load due to the mass of said pellet size and the reduced chance of over penetration (Notice I said reduced chance of over penetration) if you intend to keep a shotgun for home defense and wish to keep it ready for action. have it stored where only you and other trusted members of the household know where it is (as well as it's condition of readiness) . Keep a round in the chamber safety on with extra ammo ( of the same type) stored either with it or on it. Then all you need to do is slip a few rounds into the magazine tube and flick the safety off, or if a shot is needed very fast you can single load it (which requires practice)
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It isn't the size of your hallway howitzer,it's how you use it. |
#87
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Although it certainly is a lofty/thoughtful/intellectual exercise to worry about over penetration, it should not guide your decision. First of all, worry about practice, with practice, under stress, doing so one is much more likely to puts rounds on target. That helps stop a threat and also nearly eliminates the chance of any additional harm from over penetration. The relatively small reduction in over penetration from #4 buck compared to #1 or 00 just is not worth the reduced terminal ballistics. Certainly anything smaller than #4 buck is simply WRONG advice. #4 may be a reasonable compromise, but in my opinion the drawbacks are smaller than the gains. Slugs are a entirely different game with regards to their penetration (massive to say the least). That being said slugs still can have a legitimate purpose in HD (engaging a target behind a wall or in some rare circumstances even in a vehicle). |
#88
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Ultimately training wins out over ammo selection, but both are important. Part of taking an "all of the above" approach is also seeing the value of slugs. I don't completely discount their use, but in my opinion they should be reserved for an outdoor situation only. My comments were more in regards to inside a dwelling. I do actually keep 5 slugs on a buttstock shell holder in case a target needs to be engaged outside or in a vehicle as you suggest, but I would never fire a slug inside the house unless I had no other option. 00 Buck has plenty of power to go through a wall if I need it to, or through furniture. |
#89
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Interesting reading and opinions. It really depends on where you live, a apartment at Pico/Union is much different from a trailerhome on the back forty.
The most important thing is have a plan and training. YMMV |
#90
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You're assuming a head on center of mass hit with your bird load...while assuming a miss with buckshot. That's just not realistic. I wanna break bones and penetrate in that more likely oblique shot. You really shouldn't be counseling people....against basically ALL professional judgement.
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Palestine is a fake country No Mas Hamas #Blackolivesmatter |
#91
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Second...exactly. From the BG's perspective, the threat was not stopped until he could return (accurately even) fire. It's not about what eventually kills the BG, it's about stopping the threat in the most expeditious manner. The .38, with the loads of the day, were lacking as well.
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Palestine is a fake country No Mas Hamas #Blackolivesmatter |
#92
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People keep mentioning how birdshot is not lethal through walls. What happens if the bad guy does something crazy like use a wall as cover. If he has a hangun, and you are loaded with birdshot he is behind cover, and you are behind concealment. Last edited by bernieb90; 05-01-2013 at 6:38 PM.. |
#93
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Last time I looked here, nobody had mentioned the mini-12 ga. shells made by Aquila. They're only 1-3/4in. so they won't cycle through autos or pumps, but if you have a break action 12 they might be the answer if you are really concerned about over penetration. I bought some but haven't tried them yet. MidwayUSA lists them and some customers have posted reviews there.
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#94
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Going biden with the double barrel shotty eh? Lol just messin. But in all honesty if you guys haven't already you need to watch the magpul videos on shotgun. The shotgun is the most versatile weapon in our arsenal and it can be the hardest to manage CORRECTLY in a high stress situation. That's why having different rounds ready at hand can be the best option. Having a side saddle with rounds that can be used in different situations is the best. And in order to use the shotgun to its fullest extent it needs to be practiced. Doing round change outs and the like could save your life as well as your family's life. And that is what we are trying to do. Having the option of slugs 00buck 4buck would be the ultimate situation but you would have to know how to change and use them accordingly.
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#97
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#98
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DOH!!!!
LOFL I haven't been in this thread for a while so.. But yes the Videos being refered to show the facts /shrug. Not sure how the trolling thread crappers can argue with the obvious video evidance. Like most trolls factual information doesn't stop them from trolling.
Video one 1. That birdshot will go thru one complete wall and stop in the 2nd 2. That buckshot will not only go thru one wall but 4 and a backstop Video two. about 6:30 in the video 1. That birdshot at 20 feet will absolutely 100% go thru a sternum and cause MASSIVE penetration and damage. But you go ahead and deny facts /shrug whatever makes your troll justified in your mind lol. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=-f-D8Wx73pU http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=...=0&FORM=NVPFVR
__________________
"Men sleep peacefully in their beds at night because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." George Orwell http://www.AnySoldier.com |
#99
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#100
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Now...if we can only get the BG to square up at 20'. Your facts are useless. A .22LR will travel a mile too...but no one suggests targeting a mile away with a .22. It always amazes me that birdshot hits the BG square in the chest, while buckshot is a clean miss killing a child 5 houses down. No problem. Use whatever you want. it's you and your family. Just stop trying to convince others with your irrational rationalizations.
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Palestine is a fake country No Mas Hamas #Blackolivesmatter Last edited by JagerDog; 05-04-2013 at 10:06 AM.. |
#101
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Whatever, you want to use bird shot, more power to you.
The Birdshort side will present their side, the buck guys will present theirs, and the end user can look at both and determine what they feel comfortable with. Presenting "absolutes" on either side is just asking for a test fixed one way or the other. For me, I'll use buck. I don't think bird shot would feel real great at 20' regardless.
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#102
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clarity
So let's make this simple and clear...OK????
I personally am not saying YOU MUST use a certain ammunition... everyones defense plan is going to be differant do to factors like penetration, dwelling type, firearms, location yadda yadda yadda. All I suggest is that people make an informed decison based on factual data. Not someones biased opinion. The videos I posted have pretty simple straightforward factual results that no normal person can argue with. If someones still running their mouth about this is BETTER you MUST do this .. they are just a troll /
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"Men sleep peacefully in their beds at night because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." George Orwell http://www.AnySoldier.com |
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