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  #81  
Old 07-23-2019, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Jimi Jah View Post
Mag dumps are not my thing. I like precision shooting and that takes more time. 10 rounders are more than enough for that. Plus, I never get any unwanted looks.

30 rounders are kept locked and loaded at home where they do the most good.
No mag dumps at all. I prefer target shooting to reloading mags. It gives more trigger time on the paper targets.
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  #82  
Old 07-23-2019, 1:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Jimi Jah View Post
Mag dumps are not my thing.
But sometimes I just got to... A week after freedom week I did an 18 round mag dump and heard a voice say, "That sounded like more that 10 rounds."
The RSO said, "Yup, pretty cool, eh?"
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  #83  
Old 07-23-2019, 4:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
Jeff, my sense is that your initial erroneous assertion set the stage for this runaway train that others have been driving:
As a matter of process and law, “they” can’t. (If someone steals a car, “they” can’t charge the thief with murder).

With your premise in place, others ran off with the specter of LCM prosecution, modified firearms and scribbling on weapons as being the turning points on the road to life in prison...because, “they can charge you with whatever they want.”

That’s often the way CalGuns discussions flow, and it’s bewildering when you realize, “Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.”

Best.
Some on Calguns.net are simultaneously enjoying the Stockholm Syndrome, attempting to act as cops or lawyers while knowing zero as to the laws, and definitely help spreading major FUD.

It would be interesting to cite a single case where a modified weapon was used in a good sd or hd shoot, and the shooter taken to court.
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  #84  
Old 07-23-2019, 5:16 PM
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Originally Posted by edgerly779 View Post
Would be up to DA to prosecute or not.
Prosecute what? No state law in effect today that bans the possession of >10-round mags.
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  #85  
Old 07-23-2019, 5:22 PM
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Originally Posted by -hanko View Post
Some on Calguns.net are simultaneously enjoying the Stockholm Syndrome, attempting to act as cops or lawyers while knowing zero as to the laws, and definitely help spreading major FUD.

It would be interesting to cite a single case where a modified weapon was used in a good sd or hd shoot, and the shooter taken to court.
I've been saying / thinking the same damn thing. Also the same about using reloads for self-defense scenario, it's all crickets.
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  #86  
Old 07-23-2019, 5:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Featureless View Post
Seem to remember some provision in CA law where a LEO can confiscate them as a nuisance.
If you do not possess them (standard magazines) legally a law enforcement officer may thieve them and consider the mag or magazines as a "nuisance". If owned outright & legally it is a good idea to carry a copy of you PROOF of purchase & a copy of the standing ca. law concerning the possession of these magazines bought during "Freedom Week".

Last edited by losangeleno; 07-23-2019 at 5:48 PM..
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  #87  
Old 07-23-2019, 7:50 PM
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Originally Posted by mshill View Post
Now you're talking.
Yeah no kidding use the dam things. That pisses them off more than anything.
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  #88  
Old 07-23-2019, 8:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by losangeleno View Post
If you do not possess them (standard magazines) legally a law enforcement officer may thieve them and consider the mag or magazines as a "nuisance". If owned outright & legally it is a good idea to carry a copy of you PROOF of purchase & a copy of the standing ca. law concerning the possession of these magazines bought during "Freedom Week".
You may want to re-read the actual nuisance section, and try to understand it this time. It does not matter if you own them legally or not for them to be considered a nuisance item subject to confiscation and destruction.


32390. Except as provided in Article 2 (commencing with Section 32400) of this chapter and in Chapter 1 (commencing with Section 17700) of Division 2 of Title 2, any large-capacity magazine is a nuisance and is subject to Section 18010.
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  #89  
Old 07-23-2019, 8:51 PM
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Originally Posted by losangeleno View Post
If you do not possess them (standard magazines) legally a law enforcement officer may thieve them and consider the mag or magazines as a "nuisance". If owned outright & legally it is a good idea to carry a copy of you PROOF of purchase & a copy of the standing ca. law concerning the possession of these magazines bought during "Freedom Week".
Uh, no. LEOs either do or don't do. They do not adjudicate on the spot. Stop spewing FUD.
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  #90  
Old 07-23-2019, 9:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by losangeleno View Post
If you do not possess them (standard magazines) legally a law enforcement officer may thieve them and consider the mag or magazines as a "nuisance". If owned outright & legally it is a good idea to carry a copy of you PROOF of purchase & a copy of the standing ca. law concerning the possession of these magazines bought during "Freedom Week".
I agree with others - why carry PROOF of whatever? Doesn't make any sense to me.

Also, like others, I've been using 10+ round magazines openly for 20+ years. I'd enjoy being a test case / plaintiff against a nuisance case working with Michel & Assoc. Not going to happen though (for me, or for anyone else).
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  #91  
Old 07-24-2019, 12:47 AM
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Originally Posted by P5Ret View Post
You may want to re-read the actual nuisance section, and try to understand it this time. It does not matter if you own them legally or not for them to be considered a nuisance item subject to confiscation and destruction.


32390. Except as provided in Article 2 (commencing with Section 32400) of this chapter and in Chapter 1 (commencing with Section 17700) of Division 2 of Title 2, any large-capacity magazine is a nuisance and is subject to Section 18010.
That wouldn't hold up in court, You may want to Ask Attorney Jason Davis.

Last edited by losangeleno; 07-24-2019 at 1:33 AM..
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  #92  
Old 07-24-2019, 12:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Featureless View Post
Uh, no. LEOs either do or don't do. They do not adjudicate on the spot. Stop spewing FUD.
How is proving you legally own & purchased standard capacity magazines "fud"? Even if an LEO who was at the time ignorant of the original/current laws concerning possession of standard capacity magazines were to rob me of my belongings it would never hold up in court, Ask Attorney Jason Davis smart guy smh.

Last edited by losangeleno; 07-24-2019 at 1:43 AM.. Reason: erty
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  #93  
Old 07-24-2019, 5:50 AM
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For the sake of discussion:
Quote:
Originally Posted by losangeleno View Post
If you do not possess them (standard magazines) legally...
It is up to law enforcement to prove you don’t possess them legally. How will they do that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by losangeleno View Post
... a law enforcement officer may thieve them and consider the mag or magazines as a "nuisance".
(”Seize”?). The court order, while not addressing the nuisance factor, appears to enjoin LEOs from seizing the mags. In the face of the order:
Quote:
Additionally, California Penal Code § 32310 (c) & (d), which bans the possession of large-capacity magazines, remains subject to a preliminary injunction during the appeal. Accordingly, lawfully possessed large-capacity magazines may be retained until the appeal is finally resolved (Virginia Duncan et al. v. Xavier Becerra, 9th Circuit Court of Appeals Case 9 No. 19-55376).
It’s unlikely LEOs would venture into this area solely to seize mags, because they can’t prove the mag isn’t lawfully possessed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by losangeleno View Post
If owned outright & legally it is a good idea to carry a copy of you PROOF of purchase & a copy of the standing ca. law concerning the possession of these magazines bought during "Freedom Week".
Law enforcement loves having curbside discussions on the nuance of laws.

How does a specific receipt prove the legal possession of a specific magazine? Unless there is a serial number on the mag and it’s shown on the receipt, there is nothing to link the two together. Once you’re in the system, your lawyer (for a fee) can negotiate the presumption of legal possession using your receipts. But, a street cop really doesn’t have to do that.

Leave your receipts at home and enjoy your property.
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Last edited by Dvrjon; 07-24-2019 at 6:43 AM..
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  #94  
Old 07-24-2019, 6:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by losangeleno View Post
If you do not possess them (standard magazines) legally a law enforcement officer may thieve them and consider the mag or magazines as a "nuisance". If owned outright & legally it is a good idea to carry a copy of you PROOF of purchase & a copy of the standing ca. law concerning the possession of these magazines bought during "Freedom Week".
Quote:
Originally Posted by P5Ret View Post
You may want to re-read the actual nuisance section, and try to understand it this time. It does not matter if you own them legally or not for them to be considered a nuisance item subject to confiscation and destruction.

32390. Except as provided in Article 2 (commencing with Section 32400) of this chapter and in Chapter 1 (commencing with Section 17700) of Division 2 of Title 2, any large-capacity magazine is a nuisance and is subject to Section 18010.
Then, we need to look at PEN 18010:
Quote:
18010. (a) The Attorney General, district attorney, or city attorney may bring an action to enjoin the manufacture of, importation of, keeping for sale of, offering or exposing for sale, giving, lending, or possession of, any item that constitutes a nuisance under any of the following provisions:[...]
(20) Section 32390, relating to a large-capacity magazine.[...]
(b) These weapons shall be subject to confiscation and summary destruction whenever found within the state.
Prior to the Court’s ruling, it has been a matter of speculation that the nuisance provision may/may not be locally applied to grandfathered LCMs, but would take a specific action to do so. Other’s believe that the provisions of (b) are stand-alone, and allow seizure without AG action.

The Court’s order would seem to enjoin these sections of PC as well.
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  #95  
Old 07-24-2019, 8:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Citadelgrad87 View Post
There is a burden of proof. In a criminal case, the prosecution has the burden except for affirmative defenses. In a self defense shooting, the accused has the burden to prove they acted in self defense.

Shooting a stranger inside your house at zero dark thirty goes a long way to proving this.

The charge of using a prohibited magazine in a rifle means the DA has to prove my magazine was obtained illegally.

Since it will have been used in my RAW that was registered pursuant to requirements back when it was legal to buy standard magazines, he or she has a very uphill fight.

Since i am using USGI aluminum magazines and have a receipt for those magazines since they are on the paperwork for the AR itself, i say lets dance.

I also carry standard caps in my carry gun, both some i bought in the 1990s and some i bought during freedom week, i feel prepared to fight any charges.

I also know the laws applicable to self defense and can articulate my reasons for using deadly force.

Even if it all goes to hell, i recognize that my odds of ever having to fire in self defense is minuscule, but i want every advantage. Id rather be in trouble for using a standard cap and surviving than be dead but not worrying about a charge for the magazines.

This is NOT legal advice, or even practical advice. Everyone needs to make their own decision. This is just the rationale behind mine.
Gee. I no longer practice and did not practice crim law, but do you want to rethink the highlighted statement above?
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  #96  
Old 07-24-2019, 9:03 AM
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Originally Posted by jeff.i.thomas View Post
they can charge you with whatever they want... that doesn't mean they'll win but you'll still have to deal with the financial and emotional to you and your family



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First of all, if you had pre-bans or obtained the standard caps in Freedom Week they are legal.

Secondly, in a residential self-defense shooting, they are not going to arrest you for a standard cap mag...they would for a crappy shoot, though. I don’t see the “financial and emotional” burden for getting charged with a legally-obtained standard cap magazine. A crappy shoot, yeah.

Dayyum......some lowlife comes into your house with a 33-rd Glock mag sticking down his pants and people are worried about whether they have a 10 or a 15 rounder mounted up? That is the ABSOLUTE LEAST of your worries.

Man, THE COURTS give us a bone and people are scared to take advantage of it. What’s next....the courts dissolve the California Handgun Roster and people won’t buy for fear it “used to be off-roster” ?


.
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Last edited by Erion929; 07-24-2019 at 9:09 AM..
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  #97  
Old 07-24-2019, 9:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kokopelli View Post
No mag dumps at all. I prefer target shooting to reloading mags. It gives more trigger time on the paper targets.
30 rounders stick out too far and will scrape the shooting table under the bags.

Yes, it also takes 3 times the time to load a 30 compared to a 10. No difference there.
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  #98  
Old 07-24-2019, 5:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chewy65 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Citadelgrad87
There is a burden of proof. In a criminal case, the prosecution has the burden except for affirmative defenses. In a self defense shooting, the accused has the burden to prove they acted in self defense.
Gee. I no longer practice and did not practice crim law, but do you want to rethink the highlighted statement above?
Chewy...some input from a post fiddletown made some time ago:
Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddletown View Post
Remember that if you are pleading self defense you will necessarily have admitted committing an intentional act of violence against another human. Your exoneration will depend on there being sufficient evidence supporting the all the (sic) elements necessary for that act of violence to have been legally justified to successfully resist a prosecutor's attack on your claim of self defense.

Several years ago a lawyer by the name of Lisa Steele wrote an excellent article for lawyers on defending a self defense case. The article was entitled "Defending a Self Defense Case" and published in the March, 2007, edition of the journal of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers, The Champion. It was republished in four parts, with permission, on the website, Truth About Guns. The article as republished can be read here: Part 1; Part 2; Part 3; and Part 4.

As Ms. Steele explains the unique character of a self defense case in Part 1:

...Self-defense is all-or-nothing. In order to establish it, the client has to admit being at the crime scene, with a weapon, which he or she used to intentionally harm the aggressor. The client has to admit that he injured the aggressor. The client has to convince the jury that if a reasonable person had been standing in his shoes, the reasonable person would have done the same thing. In effect, the aggressor invited his fate by threatening or inflicting serious bodily harm, or by threatening to kill the client.

In one fell swoop, the client has given up alibi and mistaken identity defenses. He or she has given up any claim that the wound was made by accident. Generally, the client must give up provocation (heat of passion or extreme emotional disturbance). Logically, provocation implies an unreasonable response to a situation, and mitigates murder to manslaughter. Self-defense implies a rational response to a very dangerous situation and, if successful, results in an acquittal. Similarly, the client must give up claims of mental illness or insanity and defenses based on intoxication or drug use....
From the 2d para of Pt. 1:
Quote:
If the defendant presents some evidence on each of the elements of self-defense, then he or she is entitled to a jury instruction on the issue, which places the burden of proof squarely on the prosecutor to disprove self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt.
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Last edited by Dvrjon; 07-24-2019 at 5:43 PM..
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  #99  
Old 07-24-2019, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Chewy65 View Post
Gee. I no longer practice and did not practice crim law, but do you want to rethink the highlighted statement above?
Nope. Self defense is an affirmative defense.

https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.co...ve-defense.htm

Sometimes a criminal defendant is entitled to acquittal even though the prosecution has proven every element of the charged offense. This happens when the defendant has successfully raised and the jury has accepted an “affirmative defense” that operates by law to exonerate him. Common affirmative defenses include a plea of insanity, self-defense, mistake of fact, intoxication (in some situations), and the running of the statute of limitations (the time period, starting when the crime occurred, during which a prosecution must begin).
Affirmative defenses are controversial and involve fundamental constitutional rights. This article describes affirmative defenses, why they exist, and how they function.

I am comfortable with the quoted section as an accurate statement.
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  #100  
Old 07-26-2019, 7:30 AM
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Geeze...

More of the "DA might have a hissy fit" discussion?

If you shoot somebody, the DA may claim you did so illegally.

For all the reasons a standard cap mag is better than a neutered <10 rounder is why I have them in my HD firearms.
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  #101  
Old 07-26-2019, 4:16 PM
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Dvrjon's post of fiddletown's old post is the accurate one. The burden shifts to the prosecution if the accused makes a showing of an arguable case of self defense.

Quote:
If the defendant presents some evidence on each of the elements of self-defense, then he or she is entitled to a jury instruction on the issue, which places the burden of proof squarely on the prosecutor to disprove self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt.
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I never practiced criminal nor firearms law.Do not rely on my post, but consult your own attorney.
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