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Curio & Relic/Black Powder Curio & Relics and Black Powder Firearms, Old School shooting fun! |
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#1
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Fun(ky) old double - now with photos
Update post #25
No pix yet as I’m posting from my phone, but rest assured they will get in the thread. My grandfather was Henry Forster. Austrian who came to America and worked for the Helman family (mayonnaise barrons) as their driver and mechanic. At some point they paid for him to go to college, and he enrolled at the University of Chicago in the Engineering Dept. After graduating he continued to work for the Helmans for years, and then started the company you know today as Forster Reloading. Inherited several long arms from him decades ago and finally have them in my possession. The finest among them is an old German pre-WWII double, 12 gauge over ... some flavor of 7.5x52r if I’m reading the barrel right. Engraved color case hardened receiver, and a beautiful checkered hardwood stock. Sadly it is in need to repair, the right side is broken exposing the internal hammers. Both hammers Fire regardless of which trigger is pulled, and I believe the rifle barrel’s firing pin may be broken, and the wrist of the stock is also cracked Pictures to follow Last edited by hardlyworking; 02-25-2018 at 1:16 PM.. |
#2
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The Pix!
Here you are gents! First Set of photos
12-gauge: as I understand it, the 12 inside the circle denotes the gauge of the upper shotgun barrel 68SPC: This is a 6.8 SPC case fitting snugly into the chamber, yet sticking out past the case head - Note a 6.8mm (.270) bullet would fall through the barrel, I don't have any .30 cal bullets to test 223Rem: This is a 223Rem case fitting loosely all the way into the chamber and rattling around Flussstahl: This is, as I understand it, a requirement of the Krupp company from Essen Germany, who made the barrels, or provided the "flow-steel" for them, gunmakers had to mark the barrels as such Left: This is the good side of the rifle, and shows the "Nitro" supposedly meaning it was proofed for smokeless powder rather than black powder. Last edited by hardlyworking; 02-08-2018 at 6:41 PM.. |
#3
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Moar Pix
Left-Trap-Door: The underside of the stock from the left side. Little engraved door with a bunneh has a trap-door hinge and inside are 4 holes for rifle cartidges
Inside: The inside of the reciver. The firing pin on the shotgun barrel appears to protrude a bit but can be pushed back in, it pops back out when hammers fire Under: The under barrel shows all kinds of marks the 7.5mm a 52 in a few spots, a 12 gram which supposedly is the bullet weight it was designed for (187gr) and several single letters with crowns Right-Side: Here's the big problem. Gaping hole into the action. Last edited by hardlyworking; 02-08-2018 at 6:41 PM.. |
#4
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I may be biased being that this is a family heirloom, but this rifle is gorgeous! I would love to restore it over a period of time, but I don't even know where to begin. Even the screws are engraved so its hard to tell if you could get a screwdriver in there to take things down and really look at the inside of the action.
The butt stock needs to be remade. That much is sure. The crack in the wrist will only get worse if I shoot it, or heaven forbid, drop it. A remade stock should take care of many problems, but not all. I know there is a mechanical problem or 3 in there. With the safety on, the left/rear trigger will not fire. However the right/forward will if you pull it a couple times. First one loosens, next fires. Then when you pull either trigger, both hammers drop as I mentioned above. And then there's the possible rifle-barrel firing pin not behaving the same as the shotgun. But that's not a clear indication of a problem. I'll need a chamber cast of the rifle barrel, and I need to find out if the 12ga is the old (probably) 2.5 inch chamber, or a more modern 2.75 inch (probably not). I would love to get this old beauty into shootable shape. It will never be sold so value is irrelevant. Thank you all for any advice and insight you can provide. I know *nothing* so please, if you are so inclined, give me any lore you can on this beautiful piece. |
#5
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Seems like the wood couldbe saved based on your description. A competent woodworker can do amazing things. The internals I don’t know. Almost looks like that right side is missing an entire plate. Maybe the proper frame support would fix the mechanical problems. Maybe not. Definitely have it looked at by a competent smith, it could have a suffered damage from too high a pressure from a modern round
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#7
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Oh my!
7.5mm in the swiss uses (or can use) .308 caliber bullets 52mm in inches is 2.047 30-30 is a rimmed case which is what this chamber clearly needs 30-30 has a case length of 2.039 according to my Lee manual 30-30 uses .308 caliber bullets 30-30 has a .420/.422 diameter body right at the rim, and my snug-fit 68SPC also has a .422 rim so that seems to match too 30-30 has a .506 rim diameter and a caliper measure of the extractor/rim area is .508 SMLE-MAN you may have just cracked the code! Close buddy of mine has a 30-30 lever gun and I'm sure has some spare shells or rounds I could try to drop in. I'll report back when I have an answer! Last edited by hardlyworking; 02-08-2018 at 8:49 PM.. |
#8
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The giant hole appears to be a side plate that has gone missing.
I would hang it with the exposed hole against the wall
__________________
Rule 1- ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED Rule 2 -NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT PREPARED TO DESTROY (including your hands and legs) Rule 3 -KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET Rule 4 -BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET AND WHAT IS BEYOND IT (thanks to Jeff Cooper) |
#9
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There is or was an Englishman who would do shotgun fitting, stock bending to fit the shooter and make custom double shotguns.
He worked out of a sporting clay range in Gonzales in the 1990s. I think he also traveled around the state to sell his services. I think he was trained by Purdy or Holland and Holland. If you want to get it fixed, I would look for someone like him.
__________________
Rule 1- ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED Rule 2 -NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT PREPARED TO DESTROY (including your hands and legs) Rule 3 -KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET Rule 4 -BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET AND WHAT IS BEYOND IT (thanks to Jeff Cooper) |
#10
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http://www.daletategunmaker.com
Looks like dale now works out of this club http://www.camhills.com/About---Contact.html
__________________
Rule 1- ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED Rule 2 -NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT PREPARED TO DESTROY (including your hands and legs) Rule 3 -KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET Rule 4 -BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET AND WHAT IS BEYOND IT (thanks to Jeff Cooper) Last edited by hermosabeach; 02-08-2018 at 8:53 PM.. |
#11
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Thanks Hermosabeach!
North of Stockton isn't real close, but I'm OK with that if he's the right guy for the job. I'm in SoCal (Thousand Oaks) but that's not going to stop me from doing this right. I can't afford much now, I'm willing to wait and save up for it. |
#12
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><
The rifle caliber should be stamped somewhere on the barrels. All the rest of the unknown info is somewhere on that gun.
It is not a side plate missing, its a piece of the stock broken off. I'll send you a PM on how a approach this project |
#13
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30-30 fit in the rifle barrel!
Rim diameter is perfect, the rim depth was not quite perfect. Its hard to say is this is for sure the chamber, but it was damn close. The 12ga snap-cap (Azoom) and a 12ga slug shell from DDuplex both fit flush with the extractor, but the 30-30 stuck up above the extractor as if the rim was a little thick/deep. I was able to close the action, though it was stiff to do so, on a 30-30 live round. When I put the bullet into the muzzle end of the barrel it would not get past the ogive, I can't say by how much. Suffice to say that 30-30 is damn close, if not perfect. How would one go about confirming, besides lighting one off and seeing if the gun blows up or not? I've heard of Cerrosafe some kind of meltable compound that you pour into your barrel to get a chamber cast. Yes/no? |
#14
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n0t 30/30 european rimmed cartridge/Why wpuld a fine german firearms mfg use a yankee caliber that has to be imported. I had a heym drilling which was 16 upper barrels and 7 x 57 rimmed lower/.
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#15
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Yes, Cerrosafe is for making a chamber cast.
I ran that chamber marking by some guys I know in the cartridge collector circles. It's come up before, but nothing definitive. Some say 30/30 Winchester, others say .303 Savage. Many Euro drillings were chambered for Winchester and Savage rimmed cartridges and given a metric designation. One of the most common is the .22 Savage HiPower, in Europe aka 5.56x52R. They also had some like the 5.6x35R Vierling, "almost" identical to the .22 Hornet, but the Hornet has a thicker rim. It will chamber in the Vierling, but the action won't close. I would do a chamber cast, and slug the bore. If the chamber dimensions are close enough 30/30, and the bore is .308+, I would fire form a 30/30 case in it. If it's not the same as a 30/30, the fire formed case can be sent to RCBS and they will make a set of dies for it. |
#16
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Quote:
I just checked the dementions of 303 Savage. Very similar to 30-30 but looks like the datum line on the shoulder (headspace) is pushed back 0.07 inches and the case body gets to 0.442 inches at the rim, as opposed to 0.422. I have the feeling that it would bottom out on the chamber before fully inserting, though it could fit fine as well. The 30-30 case was really tight, and once I had it chambered and closed the action, I had to tap on the extractor to get the case back out, so its not a drop in/out like the 12gauge was. Thank you everyone for the responses, you've been a fantastic help so far! Last edited by hardlyworking; 02-11-2018 at 5:59 AM.. |
#17
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I believe you are correct that the 12ga chamber on the gun is likely 2 1/2 or maybe even 2 9/16. If you are planning to shoot the 12ga barrel to any extent you might check with your gunsmith about cutting the chamber to 2 3/4. Pretty simple to run the reamer into a break action, especially when you are only taking the existing chamber out another 1/4 inch.
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THBailey As Will Rogers once said: "Everyone is ignorant, only in different subjects." |
#18
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This thread needs more views.
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#19
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Thanks THBailey!
Actually that’s an interesting concept for a few reasons. Would that concept not hold true for the rifle barrel as well? I mean let’s posit that the rifle barrel is NOT exactly 30-30, but very close. Couldn’t I get a reamer for 30-30 and just make that the chamber? That is of course if the barrel’s bore would support such a move. 30-30 according to my Lee book only gets up to apx 30k PSI much less than modern cartridges that get up to 50-60k PSI. |
#20
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I would ask about this combination gun on the "German and Austrian" forum of the website www.doublegunshop/BBS. You will have to register on that site, but if you're interested in double guns of any sort, it has many expert shooters, collectors, and professional gunsmiths, and is a very cordial site in general. And free.
A missing sideplate is a real problem if that's the case. Unless this is a gun sold "to the trade" for finishing by a small gunsmith shop (common practice in Europe) one of the bigger makers like J.P. Sauer, you are going to have a hard time finding a plate, and then it needs to be fitted and finished. Slow and not cheap. Any rehambering will destroy the value of this gun as a collector's item. 2 1/2" 12 guage shells are available from Ballistic Products and several other makers and they work fine. Go on the website of some of these makers and ask them who handles their shells in CA. Their lower pressure ammo is perfect for CA upland hunting or skeet and lots of guys with older doubles use them. I believe that one or more of them makes nonlead (bismuth) versions, too. Pricey but you will need them if you take this gun hunting here. Steel WON'T do in this gun! You do need a chamber casting to tell you precisely what cartridge this gun is chambered for. It isn't, IMO, a gun for bubba solutions. If I were a betting guy (I'm not, especially when it comes to guns!), I would say this might be chambered for the 8.15x46R, a common Germanic cartridge similar to the old .32-40 and used for the same purposes. If it is, you can get cases made by several custom makers (and still shippable to you if unloaded, I think) and bullet molds specifically for this ctg. You won't be able to hunt with this ctg. legally in CA because nobody makes nonlead bullets in this caliber that I know of. But that would probably be true of anything but a TRUE .308 bore, and you'd need to verify that with an inside caliper or a "chamber plus a little of the bore" casting (easy to do). The stock CAN be fixed, or replaced. Neither will be fast or cheap but there are artisans out there who can do just about anything with walnut. The site mentioned above is a good place to get recommendations for these services. There are others, as well. Not sure if this gun is worth restoring to shooting condition, although it's a beauty. Certainly worth some online research to find out the costs and possibilities, though, and a very interesting search it will be....take your time and learn a lot! Best of luck, too--you can't have too much of that in these deals! Mike Armstrong Last edited by Mike Armstrong; 02-16-2018 at 7:46 AM.. |
#21
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Thanks Mike,
I’m not really concerned about value, as mentioned above it will never be sold. I am concerned about bubba though, anything that gets done to this will be tasteful and expensive to be sure. It’s definitely not a side plate but a cracked / missing piece of the stock. Between that and the wrist it will need a new one. Definitely hand made and fitted, with out even looking into it too far I’m thinking about $1000+ so this IS a commitment. I had no idea that one could make 2 1/2 inch shells, but come to think of it, so long as somebody sells hulls, and bismuth shot one should be able to roll their own. |
#22
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Was the 30-30 case you tried in your chamber fired brass? i.e. from a cartridge fired in another gun? If yes, try again with new or resized brass. Brass expands when fired. The 30-30 chambering was quite popular in pre-war European combination guns, and if the bore is 30 cal (.308), I'll bet a dime to donuts it is a 30-30 chamber. But whatever it is you don't want to mess with the rifle chamber. There are a lot of nuances in there.
The shotgun chamber? Not quite so much. They are cut to provide room for the unfolding crimp to lay in the chamber rebate as the load goes by. Shorter shells shoot just fine through longer chambers, but longer shells must never be fired through a shorter chamber. Mr. Armstrong might be right re: collectability, but if you are really going to shoot the gun, do you want to order expensive short oddball shells through the mail, or just buy a case of (relatively) cheap 2 3/4 trap and skeet loads at your local BassPro. Indeed, before doing anything I would first cast the shotgun chamber as your grandpa may well have already lengthened the chamber for the reasons mentioned above. And finally, if you are really going to load your own 2 1/2 shells you don't need to buy special hulls, you can trim longer hulls.
__________________
THBailey As Will Rogers once said: "Everyone is ignorant, only in different subjects." |
#23
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GLAD to hear it's not missing a sideplate!!! The rest is doable, for sure. And you need to do some research on the owner and maker, just so the rest of us can enjoy it!
Your pix should provide enough info on the maker, or the shop that finished the gun if it was wholesaled "in the white." There's a guy who goes by "Raimey" on the doublegun/BBS who seems to specialize in "decoding" European proofmarks, and if you ask a question and post your pix on there, I'm sure he will respond. Just be aware that this subject is a real maze and sometimes you end up with a "no-name" mysterious beauty, no matter how much research is done. It's STILL a beauty! |
#25
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Update
Been working on identifications, trying not to rely on helpful forum members, because nobody wants to help a guy who won't even try to help himself.
Anyway, I feel like I've made a LOT of progress! First, the proper name for this type of rifle appears to be a "Combination Gun" and because the proof mark all coincide with pre WWII German marks its got to be German. This type of combination gun with the smoothbore on top and rifle under is called a "Bockbuchsflinte" which translates to over and under rifle shotgun The shotgun barrel has all of the following proof marks, and I'll list their significance as far as I have been able to tell: Crown-over-S : Smoothbore proof Crown-over-W : Choked barrel proof Crown-over-U : Final definitive proof Crown-over-N : Nitro proof for smokeless powder Circle-12 : 12 gauge 13/1 : bore diameter indicating 0.719-0.729 inches Also the word Nitro in block letters on the barrel again indicates smokeless proofing The rifle barrel has the following proof marks and stampings Crown-over-N : Smokeless powder proof Crown-over-G : Rifled barrel proof K m G : Kupfer-mantel Geschoss = Copper Jacketed bullet 12gr : 12 grams = 185 grain bullet Lack of a powder charge weight indicates post 1912 Large well marked 520 potentially indicates May 1920 date of manufacture Almost all of the above was researched through the following websites: http://www.germanguns.com/tech.html http://shotguns.se/html/germany_1890-1945.html http://www.germanhuntingguns.com/ Based upon a photograph on Germanhuntingguns.com and this one http://www.hallowellco.com/merkel_pr...301E%20set.htm I am making the leap that this combination rifle was manufactured by Merkel in Suhl Germany. There are so many similarities in really subtle spots, wooden trigger guard, the little screw in the forward trigger, the latch holding the foregrip to the barrel, little black diamond-shaped inserts on the wrist. I'm assuming of course that those two websites have properly attributed their guns to Merkel and haven't made a mistake. Last edited by hardlyworking; 02-25-2018 at 1:24 PM.. |
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