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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel. |
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#161
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Those very words were uttered by the defense lawyer representing the San Diego sheriff in oral arguments Dec 6th. those very words
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NO ISSUE / MAY ISSUE / SHALL ISSUE - LTC progress over time since 1986 |
#162
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If you have a CCW why wouldnt you carry at a school? I read your logic on a round going off and maybe hitting a child, but that being said isent it better to have protection to protect children and yourself than lay on the floor and wait for the shooter to come in and shoot away with no resistance? I work at a school (and a CCW) and I am very familiar with lock down etc. Just my opinion. And Im glad in CA if you have a CCW staff and others can carry on campus. It makes it safer. |
#163
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And please tell me about this "law abiding" of which you speak? The law is the law, does not mean I agree with it or like it. Nonetheless it is the law.
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"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." - Benjamin Franklin "The answers to life's biggest questions are not found on Google." Author Unknown San Diego CA - Sig Sauer P226 9mm & Mosquito, Bersa Thunder, Ruger LCR & LCP, S&W 22A, SA 1911 9mm, Beretta 92SF 9mm, Marlin 60 |
#164
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Maybe so.
He failed the "shut up" test like BWEISE said. That doesn't make him wrong. At all. The law is wrong. He is right. California's Jim Crow era CCW law is wrong. Gun Free School Zone (state and federal) are wrong. CC/OC/transportation laws are wrong. He isn't the crazy one. I hope he has a CCW denial on file. I hope he fights it. I hope he wins. He might have been stupid, but I personally can't hold it against someone exercising their rights regardless of what the law says. And flaunting that he was doing so is a first amendment issue, in my mind. All politics, PR, and legal issues aside. I back him. |
#165
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I didn't read the entire thread, and I skimmed the article. If I missed a mention of the teacher having an LTC, please correct me, but I am assuming he didn't, since he was arrested. His actions indicate he's irresponsible. Even if he'd had a license, the risk to benefit ratio of an employee carrying at a school--absent special circumstances and the knowledge and support of administration--is unfavorable.
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Like granular silica through an equatorially constricted chronographic vessel, so are the circadian georotations of our metabolic persistences. |
#167
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You want to dispute that? Then do it in court and get the laws changed. The more people play stupid cowboy stunts like this and the quicker they will get us to a point where firearms have been regulated to the point of total non viable to own and possess, or worse yet a successful repeal of the 2A. Smarten up. The whole open carry thing just makes us look bad, (oh but I am exercising my rights! ) the illegal concealed carry that this guy did just makes gun owners look worse.
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"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." - Benjamin Franklin "The answers to life's biggest questions are not found on Google." Author Unknown San Diego CA - Sig Sauer P226 9mm & Mosquito, Bersa Thunder, Ruger LCR & LCP, S&W 22A, SA 1911 9mm, Beretta 92SF 9mm, Marlin 60 |
#168
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#169
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With regard to concealed carry, the dynamics a little different regarding the law. Doctrine of Competing Harms states that breaking the law is acceptable , if in so doing grave bodily harm or death was prevented which would have occurred had the law been followed. Its one of the reasons why prosecutors drop self defense cases involving illegally acquired firearms. That Doctrine doesn't fly when you're speeding to work and endangering the public, or when you fail to file a tax form on time. It does when violating the law on carry bans supersedes the bodily harm you can incur by obeying the law.
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The more prohibitions you have, the less virtuous people will be. The more subsidies you have, the less self reliant people will be. -Lao-Tzu, Tau Te Ching. 479 BCE The 1911 may have been in wars for 100 years, but Masetro Bartolomeo Beretta was arming the world 400 years before John Browning was ever a wet dream. |
#170
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In the 2010-11 school year, there were nearly 99,000 K-12 public schools operating in the US. Let's assume for the sake of argument that the number right now is within ± 5% of that figure. We'll use the low end of the range if you want, and round it off to 94,000. Let's also define a "school shooting" for our purposes here as being an incident in which the presence of an armed staff member could reasonably be assumed to have a decent chance of stopping the threat and reducing the loss of life (let's exclude drive-by and other shootings outside the school, shootings in which a suspect fled the scene immediately after a very quick assault, etc.). How many of those incidents were there in the previous 12 months? Let's estimate on the high end, just to be as fair as possible to the San Diego school ninja support crowd; say, 50? As I've defined such incidents above, that number is high, but I'll use it. Fifty incidents out of 94,000 schools (I'm leaving out private schools for convenience). 50/94,000 = 0.053% of schools in which an armed staff member might have been able to effectively intervene and save lives in the previous year.
Some of you may argue a deterrent effect. I think that's a very fuzzy area, since many or even most of these sickos who shoot up schools are suicidal. I doubt that the knowledge that there may be armed staff member/s would deter many of 'em. Now let's look at the down side to this. First, whether you'd like to admit it or not, there are a certain percentage of LTC holders who demonstrate less than stellar judgment. Anecdotally speaking, all you have to do is read what some of 'em have posted around here in the last few years. The only thing keeping San Diego School Ninja Dude from being licensed was his county of residence; in many counties, he probably would've been able to get one. That guy's a dumb-*****. What kind of decisions would he have made in an active shooter situation? Fortunately, we won't have to find out, as far as he's concerned, anyway. Remember though, that the chances of ever encountering an active shooter situation in a K-12 school are extremely tiny. The benefit, therefore, even if we were to assume that most armed staff members would exercise sufficiently sound judgment (an extreme assumption), would be very low. The second part of a benefit/risk assessment is the risk. Can you identify some of the risks involved? I'll hold my thoughts on that for now because I'm curious as to whether anyone else is thinking along similar lines.
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Like granular silica through an equatorially constricted chronographic vessel, so are the circadian georotations of our metabolic persistences. |
#171
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If he had been found out because he stopped a rampaging miscreant, we would be having a very different conversation. This guy's mistake was opening his mouth. Well, that, and staking lives on the performance of a .380.
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www.christopherjhoffman.com The Second Amendment is the one right that is so fundamental that the inability to exercise it, should the need arise, would render all other rights null and void. Dead people have no rights. Magna est veritas et praevalebit Last edited by Maestro Pistolero; 02-18-2013 at 3:14 PM.. |
#172
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a lot of people "pre-judging" the teacher ... they dont even know what exactly happened bottom line GFSZ are a joke, this might be a nice big step toward debunking such myth...
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-Coi- N R A member since 2008 .177-.22lr-.410-9mm-38spr-.45acp-45lc-7.62x39-7.62x54r-12ga ~your friendly neighborhood ZOMBIE hunter~ |
#173
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Any guy who illegally brings a gun to work and brags to students about it in order to boost his own ego is NOT likely to possess the mental attributes necessary to respond effectively to any situation more serious than some kid losing his lunch money.
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Like granular silica through an equatorially constricted chronographic vessel, so are the circadian georotations of our metabolic persistences. |
#175
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Like granular silica through an equatorially constricted chronographic vessel, so are the circadian georotations of our metabolic persistences. |
#176
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That's all moot, however, since Teacher Ninja Dude is not licensed.
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Like granular silica through an equatorially constricted chronographic vessel, so are the circadian georotations of our metabolic persistences. |
#177
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Considering the police already stationed at schools and the public desire to protect our children I think allowing trained staff to carry is a far superior option to employing more police officers or hiring guards. When comparing cost, I consider a voluntarily armed teacher/administrator much more effective. I agree that this man made a foolish choice, but I believe his motive was good, so I think your disrespectful terms are not appropriate or constructive. LC |
#178
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"When you get the (men) to the range, you just get the men. But when you bring the (women) to the range, you get the (whole family). And that's what's going to save our 2nd Amendment."--Dianna Liedorff "Since self-preservation is the 1st law of nature, we assert the...right to self-defense. The Constitution...clearly affirms the right of every American...to bear arms. And as Americans, we will not give up a single right guaranteed under the Constitution." --Malcolm X |
#179
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This was in San Diego County, and we are far from being a "Shall Issue" here.
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#180
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So the people criticizing the teacher would rather he leave himself defenseless?
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"When you get the (men) to the range, you just get the men. But when you bring the (women) to the range, you get the (whole family). And that's what's going to save our 2nd Amendment."--Dianna Liedorff "Since self-preservation is the 1st law of nature, we assert the...right to self-defense. The Constitution...clearly affirms the right of every American...to bear arms. And as Americans, we will not give up a single right guaranteed under the Constitution." --Malcolm X |
#182
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Seat belts save lives rarely. When they do, it is because someone put them on.
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*REMOVE THIS PART BEFORE POSTING* |
#183
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I stand by my characterization of the guy. His ill-advised, STUPID act is one more pebble in the pile of rhetorical ammo for extremists like Yee, Amiano, and Skinner. In this state the only chance outside of court challenges and the outside possibility of a non-overridden veto by the governor to prevent at least some of the most odious of the currently proposed legislation is to get some Democrats to resist some of it. Every case like this makes that less and less likely. So yeah, a guy who breaks the law and brags to 12 year olds and portrays that illegal act as part of his self-appointed role as extralegal would-be hero is a fool.
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Like granular silica through an equatorially constricted chronographic vessel, so are the circadian georotations of our metabolic persistences. Last edited by Old_Bald_Guy; 02-18-2013 at 11:42 AM.. |
#184
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Nice false dichotomy there. Next.
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Like granular silica through an equatorially constricted chronographic vessel, so are the circadian georotations of our metabolic persistences. |
#185
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http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/811105.pdf
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Like granular silica through an equatorially constricted chronographic vessel, so are the circadian georotations of our metabolic persistences. Last edited by Old_Bald_Guy; 02-18-2013 at 11:33 AM.. |
#186
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Why don't more of them choose to walk up in the police station to finish the deed, to the range, a shooting match, perhaps a live fire military drill? I'd guess there are specific reasons these sacks of _hi_ choose targets such as schools, whether they are totally conscious of those reasons or not. Part of the reasoning must be the fact these are sterilized areas.
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#187
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Ready,
Is that the only variable you can identify, the perceived presence or lack of armed people? The pathology of mass killers is more complex than that. I notice no one has yet speculated on the potential negative aspects of doing the job of a teacher or other school staff member while armed.
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Like granular silica through an equatorially constricted chronographic vessel, so are the circadian georotations of our metabolic persistences. |
#188
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But anyway, this is destined for the vast repository of threads in which no consensus was ever reached. Some issues are multilayered, and this is one of 'em. The general tendency to oversimplify issues and to label any attempt to examine those layers as "anti-gun" pretty much precludes any substantive discussion.
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Like granular silica through an equatorially constricted chronographic vessel, so are the circadian georotations of our metabolic persistences. |
#189
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You will concede it is a major "variable" though, right? I'm not arguing for or against LTC by staff here but your dismissal of sterilized areas being targeted is way off IMO.
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Stand up and be counted, or lay down and be mounted... -Mac |
#190
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The way I see it, if an elementary teacher is showing kids his gun, what else is he showing them?
I found the school district policy manual online. It expressly prohibits employees from having firearms on school property, whether or not the employee has a permit. Quote:
He's sunk. |
#193
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I've never really been a binary person, so I am open to any alternatives you may have to offer.
Seems like you only want to demean and criticize and constructive discussion is outside of your current vocabulary.
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"When you get the (men) to the range, you just get the men. But when you bring the (women) to the range, you get the (whole family). And that's what's going to save our 2nd Amendment."--Dianna Liedorff "Since self-preservation is the 1st law of nature, we assert the...right to self-defense. The Constitution...clearly affirms the right of every American...to bear arms. And as Americans, we will not give up a single right guaranteed under the Constitution." --Malcolm X |
#195
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The odds of actually needing a firearm to defend yourself in one lifetime is very low in America.Yet ,I've been involved in three direct threats to my life, and had to draw on two with my carry pistol.One incident happened at " gun free zone" which I had the good fortune to ignore. The odds of a university or school suffering a spree shooting is low.Yet VT has suffered two shooting incidents. We have to acknowledge the fact that while a violent attack is unlikely,it's a long way from impossible. NASA spends millions of dollars tracking space rocks around Earth.The odds of an asteroid impact are extremely,incongruously low compared to nearly every other hazard we humans face: yet we prioritize it enough to spend millions on object tracking . If you went before Congress as a NASA administrator and said our policy regarding asteroids is to pass a law banning impacts,you'd be dismissed on the spot- and probably 5150'd too. Yet that is exactly the same policy in place regarding our children.Its insanity posing as a good idea,and I applaud the teacher for taking a common sense approach.
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The more prohibitions you have, the less virtuous people will be. The more subsidies you have, the less self reliant people will be. -Lao-Tzu, Tau Te Ching. 479 BCE The 1911 may have been in wars for 100 years, but Masetro Bartolomeo Beretta was arming the world 400 years before John Browning was ever a wet dream. |
#196
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Neither of those conditions apply here. He is guilty under CA law. |
#197
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You lost.
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*REMOVE THIS PART BEFORE POSTING* Last edited by paul0660; 02-18-2013 at 4:56 PM.. |
#198
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Did you read that as an outright dismissal? Why?
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Like granular silica through an equatorially constricted chronographic vessel, so are the circadian georotations of our metabolic persistences. |
#199
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I disagree. I have criticized the stupid actions of a guy who is now in the news. He's not a member here as far as I know. I have disagreed with people in this and other threads, but I don't hurl invective and I don't demean. If you feel otherwise, please cite what I wrote that you interpreted as demeaning.
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Like granular silica through an equatorially constricted chronographic vessel, so are the circadian georotations of our metabolic persistences. |
#200
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Upon further review, I've decided you're right--you won. You are the champion.
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Like granular silica through an equatorially constricted chronographic vessel, so are the circadian georotations of our metabolic persistences. Last edited by Old_Bald_Guy; 02-18-2013 at 6:30 PM.. |
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