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  #121  
Old 11-10-2018, 1:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mossy View Post
I always find it funny. The ONLY time a conservative will say work and self sufficiency are bad things is when it comes to salvation.

Free pass for medical care? no..... Get a job and pay for heath insurance like a good American.
Free pass for housing? Absolutely not, I ain't paying for your lazy butt to sit around.....
Free pass for food? Why should I pay for you to eat. Get a job and buy your own food........
Free pass for school? Lol. Oh wait you are serious? Let me laugh harder at your crazy a**
Free pass for heaven? Well duh.... of course that's free. do you seriously expect us to work for That? Wtf is wrong with you.
I guess James was a retard and shouldn't have had his writings in the bible?

Quote:
Faith and Works

14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

18 But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
Its not that works has nothing to do with our salvation, its that you could never work enough or do enough good to "earn" salvation.

But if you claim the name of Christ and have no Fruits or Works that show the Spirit working through you, James is questioning that here.
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M. Sage's I have a dream speech;

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Originally Posted by M. Sage View Post
I dream about the day that the average would-be rapist is afraid to approach a woman who's walking alone at night. I dream of the day when two punks talk each other out of sticking up a liquor store because it's too damn risky.
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  #122  
Old 11-10-2018, 1:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Rizzo View Post
Well,...thanks for your reply and input.
So, you've read and understand about Karma but reject it. OK

You seem to suggest that I do not believe in...what, Christianity?
You'd be wrong there if you do.
FWIW, I consider myself a Christian.
Some judgemental types here would disagree with that though.
That's their problem.

There are references to Karma (Law of Cause and Effect) sprinkled in the Bible. Such as:
You reap what you sow...
Live by the sword, die by the sword...
...and others.
By calling others "judgemental types" Aren't you therefor being one of them?
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M. Sage's I have a dream speech;

Quote:
Originally Posted by M. Sage View Post
I dream about the day that the average would-be rapist is afraid to approach a woman who's walking alone at night. I dream of the day when two punks talk each other out of sticking up a liquor store because it's too damn risky.

Last edited by colossians323; 11-10-2018 at 1:43 PM..
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  #123  
Old 11-11-2018, 9:14 AM
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Originally Posted by colossians323 View Post
By calling others "judgemental types" Aren't you therefor being one of them?
So, I am judging the judgemental types here?.....yeah I guess you could look at it that way.
You've been around this forum for a while so I think you know what I mean there.
Lots of "opinions" here.......Catholics are not Christian.....you are going to hell if you do not believe what I believe.....stuff like that.
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  #124  
Old 11-11-2018, 1:44 PM
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No one said others were going to Hell if they don't believe what I believe. they said you are going to Hell if you don't believe in Christ. and that is because that's what Christ said.
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  #125  
Old 01-22-2019, 6:07 PM
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Default Let me see if I can address these

It states very clearly in the Bible that for ALL have sinned and fallen short. For God so loved the world that he sent his one and only son that WHOEVER should believe in him should have everlasting life. The gospel in short is this:
  • Humans created perfect in Gods image
  • Humans fell for a lie by the Devil - if you read the story of the fall it is clear we decided to be our own god. That is essentially the heart of sin, IE I want what I want which equals eternal separation from God
  • From there God had already set the redemption plan into place.
  • Since no human could ever live a perfect life it took God to come down fully God and fully human in the form of Christ to live sacrificially for our sake and bear God's wrath in our place

I must also add works have no merit in Christianity works come out of our thankful heart for what Christ did for us on the cross in a formulaic way:
Faith = Salvation + works ( in this case works is a result of our faith NOT a basis on which we gain salvation)

SO NOW with an actual concept of the Gospel lets try and answer the questions in solid theology.

The concept Hell is one of the reasons I've backed away from my Presbyterian roots, and the Pope's recent comments on the topic have me thinking. For those of you who believe in hell, do you believe that people who's souls end up in hell are:

A) big time dirt bags in real life, i.e., serial killers child abusers, etc., or

B) those that deny Jesus Christ, or

C) both?
I believe anyone who does not believe in the true Gospel is going to hell, preachers included such as those who preach health and wealth/ prosperity gospel

If you believe the pedos, Dahmer, Hitlers and Clinton's will burn forever, didn't Jesus die for ALL of our sins? Or was there a list he submitted of exceptions? Do you believe that Jesus' sacrifice was only worth absolving white collar criminals, petty criminals and average Jerks? Is that all God's only born son was worth?
This is actually something I am wrestling with I think this relates to the determinism view vs free will, I tend to land on the side of determinism but at the same time I believe that Christ's death was sufficient enough for all of our sins, I mean it was God in man form... how is it not enough...? My pastor puts it this way BIG PROBLEM need BIG SOLUTION. If you are guilty of a crime you are guilty no? What makes you think that you have the right to determine who goes to Heaven if you did not create it?

If you believe that anyone who rejects God goes to hell, do you believe that all the mass killers who repented, all the child murderers who had death row conversions, and all the dead human traffickers who God fearingly wore gold crosses around their necks are sitting in heaven, yet the Dalai Lama, Gandhi and every Rabbi will rot In hades for eternity?
Yes, again, God died for all who believe. Its a hard thing to rationalize but we are HIS creation and we do not dictate the CREATORS motifs

And as a bonus question; for those of you who feel your beloved Aunt Percy is 'smiling down from heaven' and that Osama Bin Laden is 'rotting in hell', then you must believe that God has somehow already passed judgment on all dead people and is doing so on a rolling basis? For you, do you still believe in the biblical judgement day? Do you believe there will be a second coming? What would be the purpose, in your mind, if God's already sorting and filing all the souls as they come in? Seems kind of redundant and unnecessary to me.
Yes theres a defining point where the gates of Heaven kind of "opened" and that was when Christ rose. There will be a 2nd coming its in Revelation honestly I don't know does it really matter?
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  #126  
Old 01-22-2019, 6:57 PM
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It's not a matter of what we feel
Christ said that only those who believe in Him are saved. There is no room for what ifs.
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  #127  
Old 01-25-2019, 7:30 PM
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Revelation speaks of the second coming. My belief is all these pedos and Hitler and anybody who has died and not saved will return for the 1000 year reign. Basically God giving everyone a second chance on Earth. Then those who follow satan will go to hell and those you are righteous will live on the new Earth.
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  #128  
Old 01-25-2019, 7:37 PM
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I also believe our human concept of time has no boundaries to the living God. Is my grandpa watching me from Heaven? Nope. Cuz when we died all what Jesus said will be done. 1000 years ago and 1 day ago. Time does not exist as we know it for God. You die and you either either resurrected, and live the 1000 year reign or you are living on the new Earth because you were saved. Time is not liner for God as it if for humans.
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  #129  
Old 01-25-2019, 8:59 PM
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Jesus said you must be born again and spirit filled to enter into the Kingdom of God. If you don't know what this means you have a very serious problem. Jesus is not about what church or domination you belong to. Take a true walk in Jesus and see what happens!
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  #130  
Old 01-27-2019, 7:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Duke View Post
The concept Hell is one of the reasons I've backed away from my Presbyterian roots, and the Pope's recent comments on the topic have me thinking. For those of you who believe in hell, do you believe that people who's souls end up in hell are:

A) big time dirt bags in real life, i.e., serial killers child abusers, etc., or

B) those that deny Jesus Christ, or

C) both?

If you believe the pedos, Dahmer, Hitlers and Clinton's will burn forever, didn't Jesus die for ALL of our sins? Or was there a list he submitted of exceptions? Do you believe that Jesus' sacrifice was only worth absolving white collar criminals, petty criminals and average Jerks? Is that all God's only born son was worth?

If you believe that anyone who rejects God goes to hell, do you believe that all the mass killers who repented, all the child murderers who had death row conversions, and all the dead human traffickers who God fearingly wore gold crosses around their necks are sitting in heaven, yet the Dalai Lama, Gandhi and every Rabbi will rot In hades for eternity?

And as a bonus question; for those of you who feel your beloved Aunt Percy is 'smiling down from heaven' and that Osama Bin Laden is 'rotting in hell', then you must believe that God has somehow already passed judgment on all dead people and is doing so on a rolling basis? For you, do you still believe in the biblical judgement day? Do you believe there will be a second coming? What would be the purpose, in your mind, if God's already sorting and filing all the souls as they come in? Seems kind of redundant and unnecessary to me.
You must be "Born Again". Hell, is for those that do not repent their sins, and do not accept Christ as Savior, and believe on him.

It's that simple.

Last edited by Dragunov; 01-27-2019 at 7:11 AM..
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  #131  
Old 01-27-2019, 8:24 AM
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Couldn’t resist.
As children of God we have the potential to become like him. Jesus, Satan, you and I were all spirit children of God in Heaven. Some of the children of God rebelled in Heaven and were dammed in their progression to become like their Father.They were cut off from the presence of God and his Love. They are miserable and seek to make those who choose Gods plan to be miserable like they are.
Hell is a state of being cut off from the blessings and Love of God. There are people on this earth living a tormented Hell already (as Satan is here living a Hell existence and is here). So we have the potential to become like Satan also.

There is judgment (blessings and cursing) constantly being poured on us from Heaven or “consequences of our choices”. We will receive eternal consequences for all our choices at the Final Judgement.

When we die there will be a decision/Judge made where we go in the spirit world before the resurrection. Spirit prison(like all prisons there are some really bad places and some that are tolerable) or paradise. Those who did not have a chance to learn about the Gospel Of Jesus Christ will be taught there.
Many will repent in the spirit world.

At the Final Judgement only the sons of perdition(rebelled with perfect knowledge of God) will be cast to outer darkness with Satan.
All others will receive some degree of glory in Heaven. As the Sun, Moon and stars differ in glory so will the wicked in this world who repented shine like a star. The good people in this world who were deceived of fell short will shine like the moon in glory. The righteous who believed in Christ and brought forth works of righteousness will become like their Father and shine like the Sun in his presence.

The Kingdom Of Heaven has many degrees of glory.

Gods punishment is eternal punishment because he is eternal. But it doesn’t mean his punishment has to last forever. Jesus Christ opened the prison doors.
There is repentance in the spirit world but it will be more difficult for those who put it off and there is always Eternal consequences for choices.God is not mocked whatsoever a man sows so shall he reap.
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  #132  
Old 01-27-2019, 8:40 AM
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Follow the path of Christ.
He was a Spirit in Heaven at the time of Moses.
He was born of Mary.
He died on the cross.
He went to the Spirit world for 3 days.
He was resurrected back to into a perfect body.
He returned to his Father.

We are on the same path. Some will be dammed/stopped in the progression to become like him because of poor choices.

Good luck
Keep up the good work
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  #133  
Old 01-27-2019, 8:53 AM
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Default Ditto

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Originally Posted by billvau View Post
Will try to answer more later after church and family.

Per your phrasing, only those who deny Christ are in hell. I'd prefer to say that only those who acknowledge that they are sinners worthy of / destined to hell that accept Jesus Christ's free gift of salvation (Romans 6:23)are going to heaven. Faith alone, no works. You're not good enough / cannot be good enough. Salvation is a work all of God's (Ephesians 2:8-10). Ask Abraham (Romans 4:1-5).

Since ALL have sinned, ALL are destined to hell (Romans 3:23). The rest of that verse says ALL have fallen short of the glory of God. God defines sin as falling short of His perfect standard, His righteousness. So, ALL have fallen short of His perfect standard. That's why it doesn't matter how good you are (or bad) in this life, you still fall short. The Dalai, Gandhi, every Rabbi, and even Mother Teresa fall/fell short and need/needed to accept Christ's free gift of salvation. Whether or not they did is between them and the Lord Jesus Christ.

On the other end of falling short -the super bad - Jesus Christ's free gift is also available - no matter how bad your life has been. Ask King David - murderer, adulterer, terrible Father, etc. Ask Paul - murderer and persecutor of Christians. Ask the thief on the cross. Ask anyone who's ever been saved just how bad our lives were and how undeserving of heaven we were and still are. But, a free gift doesn't depend on how good or bad I am.

Today is a wonderful day to talk with the Lord. Admit you're a sinner and deserve hell. IOW, admit you fall short/have fallen short of His perfectness. And, accept His FREE gift of heaven, of eternal life. Tell Him you want His death to count as the death in hell that you deserve. Tell you want His life to be your life - eternally. Tell Him you don't understand it all, don't understand what has happened to all the good and bad people of the world, but want to start understanding through salvation in Him.

If you have any questions, need help, anything, just PM me! I'd love to see you all in the choir with me in heaven!

God bless and Happy Resurrection Sunday! He is RISEN!

(no time to review / edit - time for church!)

No time to parse every word (got to get to church too), but quick read of Pastor Bill tells me he's right on. All I want to add is that we have limited mind space compared to an almighty, all powerful God. So if some of God's creations, plans, etc. don't coincide with our understanding it shouldn't be a problem -- as they say, it's just above our pay grade. For me, I've decided that I don't have to understand the mechanics ... I just need to accept what He says. And that works for me (which is not to say that I don't strive to come closer and to learn more each day).


Sinner (forgiven) Bill
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  #134  
Old 01-27-2019, 11:54 AM
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Huh? Jesus was a spirit child of God in Heaven?
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  #135  
Old 01-27-2019, 6:48 PM
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Tsmithson. Who told you this nonsense? None of what you said has anything to do with Christianity. Jesus is the God who spoke to Moses, and Abraham. Reread Genesis 1 and John 1.
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  #136  
Old 01-27-2019, 6:56 PM
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Default To those of you that believe in hell

I don’t want to speak for tsmithson, but I believe they are referring to teachings common with the church of LDS.


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  #137  
Old 01-28-2019, 6:42 PM
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It’s unfortunate that the Bible is not the source of information for so many of you, especially when it concerns a Biblical issue.
Hell is for anyone who rejects God’s son: Jesus Christ. John 14 says Jesus is the only way to the Father. Any other way is a works-based salvation which, according to Galatians 3, will justify (or save) no one. As Jesus says in the gospel of Matthew, they will be told “depart from me, for I never knew you.” We are all guilty before God and are forgiven only by his grace (Romans 3:23.)
The gospel by which we are saved (1 Corinthians 15) is for all who believe (Romans 10:9) without distinction (Galatians 3:28-29). Those who make Jesus Lord of their life and repent will be saved. Man, woman, gay, straight, perfect or Adolf Hitler... all can receive forgiveness through faith in Jesus Christ. Only then, when we treasure Gods son, will we find strength through the spirit to turn from our sin (Galatians 5). Regardless of our ability to change ourselves, those who place their faith in Jesus as Lord and Savior will be saved.
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