Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > FIREARMS DISCUSSIONS > California handguns
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

California handguns Discuss your favorite California handgun technical and related questions here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 01-17-2018, 3:08 PM
Gun Kraft's Avatar
Gun Kraft Gun Kraft is offline
Vendor/Retailer
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 757
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default Blink and it's gone: roster changes

I don't know when it happened, but I recently learned the M&P 9/40 went off roster. While I didn't like the trigger reset I thought the ergonomics were okay and they were the only on-roster option with a left-handed slide catch. No more. (Yes I'm out of touch but since I can buy off-roster stuff, I do.)

So as a firearm instructor, what's out there to recommend to first time/beginner shooters? Entry level it seems like the three major choices are either the Glock Gen3, Springfield XD or Sig SP2022. That's it.

Are there any other sub-$600 semi-auto pistols you consider a good first purchase? (No, I don't think 1911 platforms are a good beginner choice.)

Are there any semi-auto pistols on the roster that have left-handed or ambi slide catches at any price?

Thanks for your help.
__________________
SF Bay Area firearm training
www.gunkraft.com
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 01-17-2018, 3:15 PM
Marquand's Avatar
Marquand Marquand is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Beautiful downtown Burbank
Posts: 1,482
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

To the list you mention above, I'd add the Beretta Px4 Storm...provided the intended shooter is looking for a DA/SA firearm with a decocking safety as opposed to a striker fired pistol.

Frankly, in the price range you mention, there aren't very many good options. Thanks California.
__________________
"A vote is like a rifle; it's usefulness depends upon the character of the user." - Theodore Roosevelt
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 01-17-2018, 3:17 PM
SoCalTeach SoCalTeach is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 133
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

I would throw in a Beretta 92fs or PX4 as good options for similar price range.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 01-17-2018, 3:18 PM
91SDLegend 91SDLegend is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 337
iTrader: 18 / 100%
Default

Beretta 92 FS?
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 01-17-2018, 3:25 PM
dfletcher's Avatar
dfletcher dfletcher is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 14,603
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default

Quite a few HKs have the ambi slide release, and if they don't are easily drop in replacements.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 01-17-2018, 3:31 PM
Kensei Kensei is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 88
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

2022 was my first pistol. I think it's better for beginners to learn DA/SA. You can start SA then learn DA.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 01-17-2018, 3:32 PM
DNA's Avatar
DNA DNA is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,518
iTrader: 84 / 100%
Default

CZ75, CZ SP01, 92FS, PX4, M&P Shield all come to mind.

Dan
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 01-17-2018, 3:34 PM
hotrail hotrail is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 361
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

What's wrong with teaching a first time/beginner shooter on a Buckmark? The price is low, they are reliable, and ammo is super cheap. Plus no scary recoil. What better way to train a new shooter on fundamentals?
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 01-17-2018, 3:34 PM
solidfreshdope solidfreshdope is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 808
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

I second the SP2022. Not left hand slide catch but I think the mag release can be swapped.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
__________________
Welcome to the United Snakes.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 01-17-2018, 3:35 PM
Lonestargrizzly's Avatar
Lonestargrizzly Lonestargrizzly is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 6,458
iTrader: 23 / 100%
Default

How long was your blink, OP?
MP's have been off the roster since like 2014.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 01-17-2018, 3:37 PM
IVC's Avatar
IVC IVC is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Temecula
Posts: 17,587
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

I'm not sure M&P has ever been on the roster. Anyone knows for sure?

As far as I know, Shields were the last ones to be added and the rest of the M&P semi-auto line never made it...
__________________
NRA Benefactor Member
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 01-17-2018, 3:37 PM
TheReluctantCraftstronaut's Avatar
TheReluctantCraftstronaut TheReluctantCraftstronaut is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 430
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

People knock them, but so far, I'm pleased with my purchase of an SD9VE.

It's trigger is definitely crap. Mine is fairly consistent on pull, but it's easily an 8+ lb pull. I love it as a range gun. Stiff trigger makes my focus a bit harder on trigger control, but it's definitely not a big deal after some time on the range. So far, about 500 rounds through it, no problems. I'm not awesome, but I can shoot it just as well as my P226.

Another budget pistol people don't tend to review well is the P22. My wife and I love it. Had two misfires, that were determined to be bad primers. I think one FTE if I recall correctly. This is all using bricks of winchester/remington/federal. Great for learning the basics.

If someone is truly looking for entry level semi auto pistol on a budget, I would recommend these. If they have the cash, a Ruger Mk III or a Glock for higher quality options.

Shame the M&P 9 is off-roster. That was what I originally wanted, until I had the same rude awakening.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 01-17-2018, 3:41 PM
IVC's Avatar
IVC IVC is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Temecula
Posts: 17,587
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

For beginners, suitable guns that are on the roster would be:

Polymer Striker:
- Glock
- XD

Polymer Hammer:
- HK P2000, USP
- Beretta PX 4

Steel Hammer:
- Beretta 92
- CZ SP-01/P-01/75 BD
- Sig 2022
- Sig P226/229

You also have some larger Kahrs that are really nice, but the trigger is a bit more difficult to master.

(I haven't limited to your specific price range since some of the above can be had used, while others fall into the price range, but are hard to find.)
__________________
NRA Benefactor Member
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 01-17-2018, 3:42 PM
SkyHawk's Avatar
SkyHawk SkyHawk is offline
Front Toward Enemy
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Outside my Southern Comfort Zone
Posts: 23,178
iTrader: 223 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gun Kraft View Post

Are there any semi-auto pistols on the roster that have left-handed or ambi slide catches at any price?

Thanks for your help.

Hk P2000/P2000sk are on roster and Ambi - a little more than $600 though. But they also come in several trigger mode options.
__________________
.


Last edited by SkyHawk; 01-17-2018 at 3:45 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 01-17-2018, 3:42 PM
JS41989's Avatar
JS41989 JS41989 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 1,151
iTrader: 42 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheReluctantCraftstronaut View Post
People knock them, but so far, I'm pleased with my purchase of an SD9VE.
My dad bought and SD9VE in the marketplace lightly used for something like $250. Installed an APEX trigger kit and honestly I like that guy more than the Sig 2022 he purchased and he did it for under $300.

I personally recommend a Glock 19 to everyone who is looking for a good pistol to start with. It was my 2nd pistol after a PX4 and I honestly parted with my Beretta shortly after purchasing it.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 01-17-2018, 3:46 PM
elSquid's Avatar
elSquid elSquid is offline
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Left coast.
Posts: 11,844
iTrader: 6 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by IVC View Post
I'm not sure M&P has ever been on the roster. Anyone knows for sure?

As far as I know, Shields were the last ones to be added and the rest of the M&P semi-auto line never made it...
There were a number of M&Ps that were on roster for a time. I have two: the full size 9 and the full size 45.

-- Michael
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 01-17-2018, 3:50 PM
TheReluctantCraftstronaut's Avatar
TheReluctantCraftstronaut TheReluctantCraftstronaut is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 430
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JS41989 View Post
My dad bought and SD9VE in the marketplace lightly used for something like $250. Installed an APEX trigger kit and honestly I like that guy more than the Sig 2022 he purchased and he did it for under $300.

I personally recommend a Glock 19 to everyone who is looking for a good pistol to start with. It was my 2nd pistol after a PX4 and I honestly parted with my Beretta shortly after purchasing it.
Do you mind if I ask how long/how many rounds has the Apex been with the SD9VE? I'm interested in getting the kit, but hesitant to trade any reliability for comfort. Most of the reviews I've read on the Apex trigger have been "Just installed, feels great!" But not many range reports after heavy use.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 01-17-2018, 3:52 PM
9mmContagion's Avatar
9mmContagion 9mmContagion is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Riv. County
Posts: 3,083
iTrader: 197 / 99%
Default

Fell off roster a number of years ago OP..

I only say the Glock since resale value is through through the roof. How? Idk, but people get $500 all day in the marketplace for them.

I’d ultimately recommend you take them to a shop and have them hold and pull the trigger on all of the guns listed above. From the guns above, and in your price range, I love the HK P2000 with the LEM trigger. The P2K has taken the place of my G19
__________________
9mmContagion Feedback
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 01-17-2018, 4:00 PM
Gun Kraft's Avatar
Gun Kraft Gun Kraft is offline
Vendor/Retailer
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 757
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Thanks for all the suggestions. Good food for thought.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hotrail View Post
What's wrong with teaching a first time/beginner shooter on a Buckmark?
Most people considering their first purchase want a "do all" pistol they can use to learn, train and use for self defense. That rules out .22s if that's the only pistol you buy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonestargrizzly View Post
How long was your blink, OP?
MP's have been off the roster since like 2014.
Like I said, normally the roster isn't a consideration when I shop. Once I purchased a couple M&Ps as training pistols I (wrongly) assumed they would stay on-roster. Now they aren't the main reason I've kept them is gone.
__________________
SF Bay Area firearm training
www.gunkraft.com
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 01-17-2018, 4:07 PM
MarkInFolsom MarkInFolsom is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Folsom
Posts: 387
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by IVC View Post
I'm not sure M&P has ever been on the roster. Anyone knows for sure?

As far as I know, Shields were the last ones to be added and the rest of the M&P semi-auto line never made it...
Went off roster at the end of of 2015. I bought both 9's, full size and compact. Very nice guns.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 01-17-2018, 4:30 PM
IVC's Avatar
IVC IVC is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Temecula
Posts: 17,587
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by elSquid View Post
There were a number of M&Ps that were on roster for a time. I have two: the full size 9 and the full size 45.

-- Michael
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkInFolsom View Post
Went off roster at the end of of 2015. I bought both 9's, full size and compact. Very nice guns.
Thanks guys. I was obviously too busy getting SSE at the time to notice... Ah, the good ole' days.
__________________
NRA Benefactor Member
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 01-17-2018, 4:45 PM
elSquid's Avatar
elSquid elSquid is offline
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Left coast.
Posts: 11,844
iTrader: 6 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by IVC View Post
Thanks guys. I was obviously too busy getting SSE at the time to notice... Ah, the good ole' days.
This was pre-SSE; I bought mine in...2010? 2009?

-- Michael
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 01-17-2018, 4:47 PM
JS41989's Avatar
JS41989 JS41989 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 1,151
iTrader: 42 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheReluctantCraftstronaut View Post
Do you mind if I ask how long/how many rounds has the Apex been with the SD9VE? I'm interested in getting the kit, but hesitant to trade any reliability for comfort. Most of the reviews I've read on the Apex trigger have been "Just installed, feels great!" But not many range reports after heavy use.
He is right at about the 2,000 round mark. So far no issues.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 01-17-2018, 4:57 PM
gsparesa's Avatar
gsparesa gsparesa is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Formally from Fremont, CA
Posts: 914
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

How about the Hi-Point C9? It’s cheap around $200. Lifetime warranty. Made in America. Beginners will have a great platform to learn about clearing jams. Impact guns has it on sale for $136.99...WOW!

Last edited by gsparesa; 01-17-2018 at 5:17 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 01-17-2018, 5:39 PM
tommyboy1966 tommyboy1966 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Oakdale CA
Posts: 445
iTrader: 8 / 100%
Default

Are you in any way related to Rip Van Winkle ? Because that blink was several years long.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 01-17-2018, 5:48 PM
SkyHawk's Avatar
SkyHawk SkyHawk is offline
Front Toward Enemy
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Outside my Southern Comfort Zone
Posts: 23,178
iTrader: 223 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by IVC View Post
Thanks guys. I was obviously too busy getting SSE at the time to notice... Ah, the good ole' days.
You didn't miss much. They were nanny state M&Ps with mag disco. The free state versions were and still are more desireable.
__________________
.

Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 01-17-2018, 6:44 PM
manini manini is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 790
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Default

[QUOTE=Gun Kraft;21167605]I don't know when it happened, but I recently learned the M&P 9/40 went off roster.

Smith & Wesson announced in Jan 2014 that they would not be renewing most of their semi-auto pistols. they allowed the pistols on the roster to expire. The M&P was de-certified in Aug 2014.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 01-17-2018, 7:05 PM
saudadeii's Avatar
saudadeii saudadeii is online now
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: OC, CA
Posts: 3,226
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Ruger did the same.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 01-17-2018, 7:33 PM
Engine104 Engine104 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 83
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Glad to hear the good comments about the SD9VE. That goes along with the reviews I've read. It's one of the guns I'm considering, 8-pound trigger and all
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 01-18-2018, 5:00 AM
Hopalong's Avatar
Hopalong Hopalong is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: CA.
Posts: 2,436
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyHawk View Post
Hk P2000/P2000sk are on roster and Ambi - a little more than $600 though. But they also come in several trigger mode options.
Sweet. Pay a little extra, and don't look back.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 01-18-2018, 5:12 AM
Jimmy's's Avatar
Jimmy's Jimmy's is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: A few state lines over in the land of the FREE!
Posts: 2,600
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Roster?
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 01-18-2018, 5:17 AM
jarhead714 jarhead714 is online now
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: The County Seat
Posts: 5,909
iTrader: 17 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy's View Post
Roster?
It's still early James. If you hit the road now maybe you can find a good burger for lunch.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 01-18-2018, 8:23 AM
the Scholar the Scholar is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 601
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by boo2112 View Post
Heckler & Koch P2000.
I have two of these, one with DA/SA and one with light LEM trigger. They are great pistols and the prices have come down significantly in the past couple years.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 01-18-2018, 8:39 AM
Lead Waster's Avatar
Lead Waster Lead Waster is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: San Mateo, CA
Posts: 16,649
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marquand View Post
To the list you mention above, I'd add the Beretta Px4 Storm...provided the intended shooter is looking for a DA/SA firearm with a decocking safety as opposed to a striker fired pistol.

Frankly, in the price range you mention, there aren't very many good options. Thanks California.
True, however luckily the Glock Gen3 is an excellent pistol for beginners or otherwise.
The other two are also solid guns.

Even if other guns were available, I'd still recommend the Gen3 Glock to a beginner (and I have done so). I'm not even a raving fanboi, just a realist.
__________________
==================




Remember to dial 1 before 911.

Forget about stopping power. If you can't hit it, you can't stop it.

There. Are. Four. Lights!
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 01-18-2018, 8:55 AM
aca72's Avatar
aca72 aca72 is online now
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Santa Clara
Posts: 3,089
iTrader: 80 / 100%
Question Dear firearm instructor...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gun Kraft View Post
So as a firearm instructor, what's out there to recommend to first time/beginner shooters? Entry level it seems like the three major choices are either the Glock Gen3, Springfield XD or Sig SP2022. That's it.

Are there any other sub-$600 semi-auto pistols you consider a good first purchase? (No, I don't think 1911 platforms are a good beginner choice.)

Are there any semi-auto pistols on the roster that have left-handed or ambi slide catches at any price?
From what I see, you are pushing semi-auto pistols for "first time/beginner shooters".

Is your firearm instruction limited to semi-auto pistols?

Will you still instruct a student if he or she prefers an el cheapo RIA M206 or any pricey revolvers like S&W, Ruger and Taurus?

IMO, revolvers are effective training platforms for "first time/beginner shooters".

Just asking...

Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 01-18-2018, 12:08 PM
Gun Kraft's Avatar
Gun Kraft Gun Kraft is offline
Vendor/Retailer
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 757
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aca72 View Post
From what I see, you are pushing semi-auto pistols for "first time/beginner shooters".
Not at all. I own several revolvers, present the pros/cons of both revolvers and semi-autos when asked in an unbiased manner without recommending one over another when asked which to purchase, and have students try both.

The reason I’m asking about semi-autos here is because they fall off roster much faster than revolvers. The revolver models I’ve recommended (Ruger, S&W) are still on the roster.
__________________
SF Bay Area firearm training
www.gunkraft.com
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 01-18-2018, 1:03 PM
unusedusername's Avatar
unusedusername unusedusername is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Between SJ and SF
Posts: 4,114
iTrader: 28 / 100%
Default

I'm with a non-profit in the bay area that has been teaching a monthly all-day basic pistol class since the 80s. I'll take a stab at your question....

It really depends on what fits the student's hands and their preferences. Suggesting a striker fired pistol as "the" introductory pistol is not a good idea, as it isn't a good suggestion for everyone. Students with hand injuries can sometimes find themselves in a position where a revolver is really what they need, whereas a student with a elbow injury might need something that soaks up recoil better then a revolver. We find that students who have very small hands actually do much better with a 1911 as the grip size is much smaller then any double stack gun. Learning the safety isn't that big of a hurdle, as long as the student understands that is isn't an optional component of the manual of arms for that platform.

Our group makes a verity of pistols available to try during the class so that the students can understand their mode of operation. A pistol isn't so complicated that someone can't figure out on their own which type they prefer to try first after a day of instruction.

The roster makes this tough, as it means that we need to be able to purchase new demonstration models often enough to "keep up" with things changing. This would be the same problem without the roster though, as the industry does discontinue models on a regular basis.

We would welcome other instructors in the area to view our class. Send me a PM and I'll give you our contact information.

Our instructors are not paid and our classes are run nearly "at cost". There are no "trade secrets" that we would keep from other instructors. The more well trained new shooters we can get in this area, the better.

Last edited by unusedusername; 01-18-2018 at 1:10 PM..
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 11:22 AM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2021, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.
All opinions, statements and remarks made by Calguns.net on this web site and elsewhere are solely attributable to Calguns.net.



Seams2SewBySusy