Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > FIREARMS DISCUSSIONS > Rimfire Firearms
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Rimfire Firearms .22, .17 and other Rimfire Handguns and Rifles

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #41  
Old 06-04-2013, 12:10 PM
Merc1138 Merc1138 is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 19,742
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
Attachment 238769

Attached or inserted is what I am describing. Most targets posted are Scenario A. Sure, I can't exactly aim for the bullseye like those with better sights - but I can extrapolate from the sides of the circle and the top some idea of where the bullseye is.

As Dattebayo correctly pointed out - the person who is consistent will likely win the match. That's the point of match.

Even I and others with crude sights like mine have a shot at it - if we do just that. Sure it's harder for us - but we do have a chance.

However, when Scenario B occurs - as was the case with the 50 yard last month and the 25 yard posted just this month - BAM! - you've just eliminated me from the match. All I can shoot reliably is the target period - I cannot aim within with any kind of consistency.

Remember:

The thread title is "Monthly Rimfire Match". That's the invitation..

Not, "Elite Equipment Rimfire Match", nor is it "Shoot Until You Win Rimfire Match".

But's that's essentially what the effect is when you suddenly shrink a target - AND allow folks to do a target session repeatedly beyond one day.

It's like me writing and administering an exam for Alegebra, but tossing in a few Geometry problems...and allowing a couple students to come back and take the test a second time after school when others have to go home.

It's like forcing the ASVAB test on students instead of running it as a voluntary test. The recruiters get screwed because the scores that get generated cannot be used to determine whether or not the students are capable of making a commitment. All they get is a score for capability - not committment...

So as I stated awhile back...

Either call it a Monthly Rimfire Match - and set it up exactly as that - a match with targets that all rimfire rifles and handguns can sight within...and let the winner be the most consistent irregardless of equipment.

Or call it something else that denotes a "sophistication" and run it as that.

=8-)
So stop using a center of mass hold, and use a 6 o'clock hold. I even found an image for you of an example of a 6 o'clock hold sight picture. You'll notice that the center of the target is not obstructed. Using a different sight picture so your target isn't obstructed has nothing to do with "elite" equipment, it's using a more appropriate sight picture for the equipment you have.
edit: Heck, here's another image for you

Last edited by Merc1138; 06-04-2013 at 12:16 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 06-04-2013, 12:17 PM
Dattebayo's Avatar
Dattebayo Dattebayo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 2,344
iTrader: 17 / 100%
Default

Well it appears with the post sights, you are doing just as much estimation as with aperture sights. For me anyways, even using the smallest aperture I could buy, the aperture is still significantly bigger than the target at 25 yards or a A23 target at 50 yards.

To put some perspective, this is how my sight picture looks.



Even though I see the black circle, it is very difficult to have it perfectly in the center. Even in the photo, if I pulled the trigger with the sight in its location, it'll hit right and low probably around the 7 or 6 ring.
__________________
Česká Zbrojovka CZ 452 Trainer 22LR / CZ 712 - 26'' Barrel 12ga
Česká Zbrojovka CZ 2014 P-07 Black / 75B 9mm SAO / 75B 40SW SAO / P-01 NATO
Smith & Wesson M&P 9 / M&P 9Shield / M&P 15T / M&P10
Mossberg MVP 16.25" .308 / Maverick Model 88 Security 8-Shot 12ga / Hunter O/U 12ga
Sphinx SDP Black Line 9mm
Walther PPK Interarms .380
Beretta 950B Minx .22 Short

Last edited by Dattebayo; 06-04-2013 at 12:20 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 06-04-2013, 12:25 PM
Dattebayo's Avatar
Dattebayo Dattebayo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 2,344
iTrader: 17 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
This picture was posted as an example what happens when you suddenly shrink the target...not of how I actually aim.

The target width wise gets completely obscured...so the aim is now reduced to simply aiming at the target instead of within for the bullseye area. Sure I could have lowered the sight in the picture so that people could point out:

"Well, just put the target in the middle of the sight and above 6-o'clock"...

But all I can do is consistently hit the target in general - not within for the bullseye.

As I already v e r y c a r e f u l l y p o i n t e d o u t consistency is still the endgame.

Nor am I once again asking for a 3 foot hole on the 18th green at the US Open.

=8-)
Is it even possible to aim at the bull with these targets? I have 20-15 vision and I just make out the black to the 4 ring and try to center the black circle in the circle of my sight. I don't think I have ever actually aimed at the 10 ring in any of my target shooting. It is all get the circle in the center of the circle game for me. If I can make out the 10 ring and it fits in my circle aperture, it would be hard pressed for me to score anything lower than a 9.
__________________
Česká Zbrojovka CZ 452 Trainer 22LR / CZ 712 - 26'' Barrel 12ga
Česká Zbrojovka CZ 2014 P-07 Black / 75B 9mm SAO / 75B 40SW SAO / P-01 NATO
Smith & Wesson M&P 9 / M&P 9Shield / M&P 15T / M&P10
Mossberg MVP 16.25" .308 / Maverick Model 88 Security 8-Shot 12ga / Hunter O/U 12ga
Sphinx SDP Black Line 9mm
Walther PPK Interarms .380
Beretta 950B Minx .22 Short
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 06-04-2013, 12:28 PM
Merc1138 Merc1138 is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 19,742
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
This picture was posted as an example what happens when you suddenly shrink the target...not of how I actually aim.

The target width wise gets completely obscured...so the aim is now reduced to simply aiming at the target instead of within for the bullseye area. Sure I could have lowered the sight in the picture so that people could point out:

"Well, just put the target in the middle of the sight and above 6-o'clock"...

But all I can do is consistently hit the target in general - not within for the bullseye.

As I already v e r y c a r e f u l l y p o i n t e d o u t consistency is still the endgame.

Nor am I once again asking for a 3 foot hole on the 18th green at the US Open.

=8-)
You don't understand the sight picture then.

If that entire target takes up the entire width of your front sight post, it would be pretty easy to center it regarding windage. If you constantly put the front sight post on the bottom of the target, then your elevation will be the same.

You're right, consistency is the end game, however you need to understand how to use different sight pictures. If your rifle is accurate, there is absolutely no reason you cannot hit the center of the bullseye every single time with a 6 o'clock hold, if you're keeping that sight picture consistent.

Aperture sights work the same way. You need to line up the rear sight, front sight, and target, while trying to consistently keep everything centered.

Same thing with a rifle scope!(well, you only have 2 planes to deal with... target and reticle, compared to 3 planes)

The short version: You're doing it wrong.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 06-04-2013, 12:30 PM
Dattebayo's Avatar
Dattebayo Dattebayo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 2,344
iTrader: 17 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Merc1138 View Post
You don't understand the sight picture then.

If that entire target takes up the entire width of your front sight post, it would be pretty easy to center it regarding windage. If you constantly put the front sight post on the bottom of the target, then your elevation will be the same.

You're right, consistency is the end game, however you need to understand how to use different sight pictures. If your rifle is accurate, there is absolutely no reason you cannot hit the center of the bullseye every single time with a 6 o'clock hold, if you're keeping that sight picture consistent.

Aperture sights work the same way. You need to line up the rear sight, front sight, and target, while trying to consistently keep everything centered.

Same thing with a rifle scope!(well, you only have 2 planes to deal with... target and reticle, compared to 3 planes)
Well the rear aperture sight is actually a little easier. When you look through it, you can actually look through it at any angle and it won't change point of impact. The rear aperture acts as your eye and the front post will be similar to targeting a shotgun.

This also helps people with vision problems as well as the small aperture helps focus on the target.
__________________
Česká Zbrojovka CZ 452 Trainer 22LR / CZ 712 - 26'' Barrel 12ga
Česká Zbrojovka CZ 2014 P-07 Black / 75B 9mm SAO / 75B 40SW SAO / P-01 NATO
Smith & Wesson M&P 9 / M&P 9Shield / M&P 15T / M&P10
Mossberg MVP 16.25" .308 / Maverick Model 88 Security 8-Shot 12ga / Hunter O/U 12ga
Sphinx SDP Black Line 9mm
Walther PPK Interarms .380
Beretta 950B Minx .22 Short
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 06-04-2013, 12:30 PM
Izzy43's Avatar
Izzy43 Izzy43 is offline
CGSSA Rimfire Coordinator
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Idyllwild, Ca (in the snow)
Posts: 2,670
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Izzy43 View Post
This statement is normally at the end of each month's match announcement: Finally for any questions just drop me a PM and I'll get right back to you. Feel free to also PM me with feedback/complaints/errors I make, etc... These matches are based on “Gentlemen's/Ladie's Honor” so go shoot and have fun.

As I sense some dissatisfaction being voiced about the matches I would encourge anyone who has a problem with the way the match is run, recommendation about targets, how many times a target can be shot or any other way to improve the matches should PM the match co-ordinator with those comments. I have made a number of changes to targets, rules, etc.. based on feedback from shooters. We (the match coordinators) cannot possibly satisfy everyone's desires in these matches but we try to do the best that we can based on our limited knowledge and experience in doing this.

We happily accept any recommendations from all shooters, send us a target that you feel would be good for a particular use in the match. These matches have been going on for several years and have evolved over time from shooting one target to what it is today. There are only two of us running the matches (soon to be three) so our ideas are limited to two or three brains and our experience level.

The matches were intended to be fun, a little challenging and promote shooting as well as develop skills. None of us want these matches to degrade into a frustrating experience.

We try to improve the matches as time passes but please use the PM process to help us improve further. Complaining in this thread will not accomplish anything. Thanks.

Izzy43
Is there something in the above post that is not clear? I co-ordinate matches, I take input from shooters via PM on recommedations/comments/suggested improvements. I am not co-ordinating the current match but I guarantee those of you who are complaining in this thread when I am co-ordinating that I do not and will not scour this thread every day looking for complaints. I review the thread everyday for scored targets.

All have been invited to communicate via PM with the match co-ordinator and continuing to complain in this thread is rude and not productive. We do the best we can and are open to suggestions to improve the match for everyone. All complaints in this thread will be ignored by me and hopefully the other co-ordinators.

Izzy43
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 06-04-2013, 12:34 PM
mark mark is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 315
iTrader: 16 / 100%
Default

mr Rabbit what do you ghink is elite equiqment? I use a rifle from the 40' many other people use 10/22 others marlins. if the equipment you are using isnt worjing for hou you can always switch to scoped instead of irons about a 30 $ fix. woukd you also like to limit the ammo we can use. you shoukd visit an appleseed project and watch what people can do wifh a cheao 10/22 with bulk ammo. instead of being upset that you are being intentionally forced oht of.a.match focus on your shooting. proper sight alligment and sight picture breath control trigger control. this is a voluntary match out on by volunteers theg are not out to screw someone.over we are all lookibg at the same target at the same distances. im gojng tk.use ny henry h001 with irons this month. stop being negative and enjoy the sport.
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 06-04-2013, 12:38 PM
Merc1138 Merc1138 is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 19,742
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dattebayo View Post
Well the rear aperture sight is actually a little easier. When you look through it, you can actually look through it at any angle and it won't change point of impact. The rear aperture acts as your eye and the front post will be similar to targeting a shotgun.

This also helps people with vision problems as well as the small aperture helps focus on the target.
Well yes, but the concepts are still the same, and being aperture sights is certainly not "elite" equipment. They both require using an appropriate sight picture(which mrrabbit is apparently not using), and in this case it means not having the point of impact being directly in the middle of your front sight post so you can't see the target.
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 06-04-2013, 12:39 PM
Dattebayo's Avatar
Dattebayo Dattebayo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 2,344
iTrader: 17 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
The AR-7 is peep rear and plastic sight front. Henry sent me several front sights for me to shave down from 2mm to .5mm. No need to spend money - no need to bust a budget. Something everyone else could do as well with budget rifles with "cheap" sights.

But now I can see just enough inside the usual 100 yard target to actually have a chance at the bullseye. Sure I didn't win last month - but for awhile there at least I was in the competition. I simply found the rough middle - raised my aim approx. 8 inches - and prayed for the best. Eley Target did the rest...

Similar for the 25 yard last month...

To be really honest - I don't like the peep or aperture front sight - I really do prefer the older setup shown above in an earlier post. But I have what I have.

=8-)
I am luckily a newer shooter so training to learn different sights it was easy for me to adapt to. I could imagine if I was shooting post sights for a decade plus, it would be difficult for me to change.

Guns are like fishing lures, if you aren't confident with it, your better off with the setup that you are as it'll reap more fish and more bulls.

At the end of the day though, even if you were shooting a $3000 Anshultz in these tournaments, if you were a crap shooter, the results will not change.
__________________
Česká Zbrojovka CZ 452 Trainer 22LR / CZ 712 - 26'' Barrel 12ga
Česká Zbrojovka CZ 2014 P-07 Black / 75B 9mm SAO / 75B 40SW SAO / P-01 NATO
Smith & Wesson M&P 9 / M&P 9Shield / M&P 15T / M&P10
Mossberg MVP 16.25" .308 / Maverick Model 88 Security 8-Shot 12ga / Hunter O/U 12ga
Sphinx SDP Black Line 9mm
Walther PPK Interarms .380
Beretta 950B Minx .22 Short

Last edited by Dattebayo; 06-04-2013 at 12:44 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 06-04-2013, 12:46 PM
Merc1138 Merc1138 is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 19,742
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
Strawman...read my earlier post.

=8-)
Which earlier post? The one where you posted an image of the sight picture you're using so it's easy to point out how you can resolve the problem without spending a time? There's no "strawman" at all, you're using your front sight wrong for shooting small targets. If you think that you can't use a 6 o'clock hold with an AR-7, then it's because you don't understand the sight picture(which I already told you).

edit: This is the sight picture you should try using. Unless your sights lose zero after every shot, your point of impact will remain in the same place, as long as you put the front post in the same place.

Last edited by Merc1138; 06-04-2013 at 12:56 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old 06-04-2013, 12:52 PM
Dattebayo's Avatar
Dattebayo Dattebayo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 2,344
iTrader: 17 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
The title is "Monthly Rimfire Match". That's the invitation. In the past two months - targets were posted that throw a bias to those with better sights or equipment.

Also, strawman - read my earlier post.

=8-)
No matter what type of targets, if you are using "better sights" there will always be a bias with the person with better equipment. If you make easier targets, the "better sights" people will just score better.

If anything Rabbit, it seems you actually want more classes to shoot. Possibly a post iron class and a aperture iron class? Or stock unmodified rifle class and modified rifle class? As I think it will accomplish what you are looking - which is what it seems is an equal playing ground.

To my knowledge, you don't even have to shoot 22LR rounds, as if you wanted, you could use any rimfire, which has better ballistics than the 22lr.

Making the target easier won't solve anything but just make this competition like a 3rd grade event where everyone gets 1st place blue ribbons.
__________________
Česká Zbrojovka CZ 452 Trainer 22LR / CZ 712 - 26'' Barrel 12ga
Česká Zbrojovka CZ 2014 P-07 Black / 75B 9mm SAO / 75B 40SW SAO / P-01 NATO
Smith & Wesson M&P 9 / M&P 9Shield / M&P 15T / M&P10
Mossberg MVP 16.25" .308 / Maverick Model 88 Security 8-Shot 12ga / Hunter O/U 12ga
Sphinx SDP Black Line 9mm
Walther PPK Interarms .380
Beretta 950B Minx .22 Short
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 06-04-2013, 12:53 PM
mark mark is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 315
iTrader: 16 / 100%
Default

mr rabbit you keep saying the title is an invitation. if this is a party you dont want to attend then dont. if you think this is a.one sided match well good on you. the people putting this match on do it for fun if your not having fun dont play. if yoh can sef up a better match or.wanf to set.up a strict everyone has the same gun match or a post only no aperture sites contact the mods and try to set.it.up. ultimately yohr whinning about.how.everyone has better stuff is falling o deaf ears. if I go buy a hinda im not going to go to a track day and complain aboht the.corvettes are lapping me and say they shoukdnt be able to play. we get what we pay for and you shoukdnt have a hard time getting a vun fhat can compefe here for 150. your posts say youre shooting match ammo if you can afford fhat I dont know why.yoire complaingjn qbout being on a budget. if this match is not a fit for you start a new one.
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 06-04-2013, 1:00 PM
Merc1138 Merc1138 is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 19,742
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
Post #47
I just gave you a picture of how to use your front sight post to hit the center of the bullseye without obscuring the target. I even used the same smaller bullseye and the sight post from your own image. The only change required is to adjust your elevation.

If an AR-7 doesn't have elevation adjustment for it's sights, then you need to resolve that on your own. It has nothing to do with the thickness of the front sight post, or diameter of the target.

Last edited by Merc1138; 06-04-2013 at 1:03 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 06-04-2013, 1:03 PM
Merc1138 Merc1138 is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 19,742
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
Strawman...

Once again and I'll repeat, stick to targets that EVERYONE can see slightly within. From that point on - Mr. Consistency wins IRREGARDLESS OF EQUIPMENT.

The current 100 yard irons and 50 yard irons for example are perfectly fine.

=8-)
Your sight picture is not an equipment issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
Did you even read post #47?

=8-)
Yes, I did. For some reason you don't understand how sights work. There is no requirement that your point of impact be dead center in the front sightpost to hit a fly at 200 yards. If your 6 o'clock hold is as consistent as your center of mass hold, your shots will consistently be in the same place, however you'll have the advantage of actually seeing the point of impact in your sight picture instead of covering it up.

Last edited by Merc1138; 06-04-2013 at 1:06 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 06-04-2013, 1:09 PM
mark mark is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 315
iTrader: 16 / 100%
Default

ok I vote we have an ar-7 only 5 yard humanoid target with a 10 inch bullseye. so we can all be whinners whoops I mean winners.
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 06-04-2013, 1:23 PM
Merc1138 Merc1138 is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 19,742
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
From Post #47:

This picture was posted as an example what happens when you suddenly shrink the target...not of how I actually aim.

=8-)

Now assuming you can actually slow down and read carefully:

1. At 25 yards I am at 6-o'clock and a tad down from where I estimate the bullseye to be to compensate for the slight rise of the round before it begins its drop.

Worked out fine last month - simply because since the target was a hair wider than my sight - I could get a decent estimate of where the "bulleyes" would be. At least I had a shot at it. However rightfully so Mr. Consistency won...

2. At 50 yards I am at 6-o'clock and roughly on the bottom edge of what I estimate to be the bullseye area. Why? Because the normal 50 yard target is slightly wider than my sight - I can estimate. Worked out fine in March. But as expected, Mr. Consistency won...that's how it goes.

Last month - the target was so small in comparison - I may as well have shot at a tiny dot on a piece of paper. Forget about even estimating where the bullseye was.

3. At 100 yards I am at what I estimate to be the center horizontally - but what I estimate to be 7-8 inches above. I was able to estimate last month where the center was because I could just barely see the left and right edges of the target. Once again though, Mr. Consistency won the match.

Thoroughly kicked my butt actually...

=8-)
You don't even need to be able to see the bullseye. Adjusting your elevation is mechanical. If you have your rifle shooting 1 MOA high over the front sight post, it will always be shooting 1 MOA over the front sight post at whatever range you made the adjustment for.

According to #2 here you're using a 6 o'clock hold for 50 yards, great, now work on your consistency. That's a problem with you, not the target, and not the rifle. It's not supposed to be easy.

If your hold is so far off at 100 yards, then adjust your elevation to compensate. Again, this is a mechanical adjustment. As I said previously, if your AR-7 has no elevation adjustment, then too bad. If you can adjust for elevation and you're choosing not to, that's entirely your problem. If you can adjust elevation but don't understand how, that's your problem too.

Last edited by Merc1138; 06-04-2013 at 1:25 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 06-04-2013, 1:25 PM
Dattebayo's Avatar
Dattebayo Dattebayo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 2,344
iTrader: 17 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
Strawman...not at all the basis for my argument.

=8-)
It may not be the basis of the argument, but the solution you are proposing is just that. A larger, easier to see, target.

There are many rimfire shooters that just have too old eyes for irons. As I said, I have 20-15 vision and still have a tough time making out Olympic standard targets. A lot of people that shoot rimfires use scopes because of that. If you can't see it, you can't hit it. Maybe that is the limitation of your physical ability to shoot. Olympic shooters seem to hit that x mark with great consistency even at 50 yards.

Now I am not saying we all need to be Olympic level shooters to compete, but it is nice to try to compete at their level to see how far off you are from the big leagues.
__________________
Česká Zbrojovka CZ 452 Trainer 22LR / CZ 712 - 26'' Barrel 12ga
Česká Zbrojovka CZ 2014 P-07 Black / 75B 9mm SAO / 75B 40SW SAO / P-01 NATO
Smith & Wesson M&P 9 / M&P 9Shield / M&P 15T / M&P10
Mossberg MVP 16.25" .308 / Maverick Model 88 Security 8-Shot 12ga / Hunter O/U 12ga
Sphinx SDP Black Line 9mm
Walther PPK Interarms .380
Beretta 950B Minx .22 Short

Last edited by Dattebayo; 06-04-2013 at 1:29 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 06-04-2013, 1:27 PM
Merc1138 Merc1138 is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 19,742
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dattebayo View Post
It may not be the basis of the argument, but the solution you are proposing is just that. A larger, easier to see, target.
I wouldn't even say he's proposing anything, more like trolling at this point since he refuses to understand anything about his sight picture, or sight adjustment while proclaiming that factory sights on $400-$500 rifles are "elite", then resorting to his nonsense trying to claim everything is a strawman(and I don't think he even understands what that means), all while crapping up the thread.
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 06-04-2013, 1:27 PM
mark mark is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 315
iTrader: 16 / 100%
Default

I dont know what strawman is and I dont care. stop using a sur ival rifle.not itended for match use and bit and moan about mr consistency using his elite rifle. no one hides what they shoot they are often proud of what they have. if YOU are shooting YOUR rifle to.its limits maybe its time for a new.rifle. yoh have to.pay to play. suck it.up and.start shooting.


stop your sniveling and trolling and just enjoy a day of.shooting. use these matches.to.compete against you and track your progress.

Last edited by mark; 06-04-2013 at 1:29 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 06-04-2013, 1:31 PM
Dattebayo's Avatar
Dattebayo Dattebayo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 2,344
iTrader: 17 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark View Post
I dont know what strawman is and I dont care. stop using a sur ival rifle.not itended for match use and bit and moan about mr consistency using his elite rifle. no one hides what they shoot they are often proud of what they have. if YOU are shooting YOUR rifle to.its limits maybe its time for a new.rifle. yoh have to.pay to play. suck it.up and.start shooting.


stop your sniveling and trolling and just enjoy a day of.shooting. use these matches.to.compete against you and track your progress.
I am guessing his strawman refers to Wizard of Oz, as the Strawman lacks a brain.
__________________
Česká Zbrojovka CZ 452 Trainer 22LR / CZ 712 - 26'' Barrel 12ga
Česká Zbrojovka CZ 2014 P-07 Black / 75B 9mm SAO / 75B 40SW SAO / P-01 NATO
Smith & Wesson M&P 9 / M&P 9Shield / M&P 15T / M&P10
Mossberg MVP 16.25" .308 / Maverick Model 88 Security 8-Shot 12ga / Hunter O/U 12ga
Sphinx SDP Black Line 9mm
Walther PPK Interarms .380
Beretta 950B Minx .22 Short
Reply With Quote
  #61  
Old 06-04-2013, 1:33 PM
mark mark is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 315
iTrader: 16 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dattebayo View Post
I am guessing his strawman refers to Wizard of Oz, as the Strawman lacks a brain.
haha its funny because its true. Semper Fi cannon fauder all the way.
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 06-04-2013, 1:59 PM
Merc1138 Merc1138 is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 19,742
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
Strawman - arguing on a basis or position that the other person DID NOT take.

It's false representation and blatantly dishonest.

I've made it very clear - I'm not asking for a 3 foot hole on the green.

I've made it very clear - That picture is not how I aim - it shows what happens when you shrink a target such that it less in width than the front sight.

I've made it very clear - Mr. Consistency wins the matches irregardless of the quality of the hardware used with the targets used for irons. I have no problem with that at all - that's the point of the match.

What I do have a problem with is an OP who for some reason or another posts targets that are so small - I cannot even estimate where the bulleyes are because they were shrunk to a point where the entire target may as well be the bullseye. Folks with custom, fine, or quality made metal sights might have something to work with - but those with cheap plastic sights - you run the risk of eliminating them at the outset. It's arbitrarily changing the goalposts.

Why not simply post targets that when sighted are slightly wider than a 1.0mm front blade or dot sight - and having established that standard as a base for selecting targets - proceed to award Mr. Skill and Mr. Consistency the win?

You guys aren't afraid that lowly $200.00 Mr. Henry AR-7 might actually beat out elite $500.00 dollar Mr. CZ in 50 yard irons are you?

I certainly hope not, because I have a long ways to go in order to catch up to Mr. Consistency. Did I scare someone with the 25 yard irons last month?

=8-)
You say it's about consistency that you need to work on, then complain that the bullseyes are too small.

Which is it?

Why do you need to have the front sight post sitting on the bullseye? It's not as if the bullseyes are randomly placed in the circular targets.

Spend more time learning how to use your sights, and less time complaining about things that aren't really a problem.
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 06-04-2013, 2:05 PM
Merc1138 Merc1138 is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 19,742
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
Once again, strawman...even after I clearly detailed for you specifically how I aim for 25, 50 and 100.

=8-)
You clearly detailed that you don't know what a consistent sight picture is, how to use a 6 o'clock hold, and how to adjust your elevation.
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 06-04-2013, 2:06 PM
mark mark is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 315
iTrader: 16 / 100%
Default

so when I was in boot camp and shooting at 500 yards I should have asked.my pmi.to make my tagets a different size so.it would line up with my front sight tip? or do what I am supposed to do apply my fundamentals of shooting and make a clean shot.? shooting is not a world that lives in perfection it is a sport of knowledge and proper compensation for the issue at hand. no one honestly cares about you little 200$ ar-7 if you out shoot me great ill go practice some more and out shoot you wifh my 70 year old rifle. stop crying start shooting.
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 06-04-2013, 2:10 PM
Dattebayo's Avatar
Dattebayo Dattebayo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 2,344
iTrader: 17 / 100%
Default

The targets are within reason as they look the same at 25 yards as a NRA A23 target would look in irons at 50 yards.

I personally shoot these when I am practicing. They are about the exact same size as this months target, but with the outer rings.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8536/8...f952858b_o.jpg

The outer rings mean nothing to me when shooting as I often can't even make them out. All I look for is my black dot.
__________________
Česká Zbrojovka CZ 452 Trainer 22LR / CZ 712 - 26'' Barrel 12ga
Česká Zbrojovka CZ 2014 P-07 Black / 75B 9mm SAO / 75B 40SW SAO / P-01 NATO
Smith & Wesson M&P 9 / M&P 9Shield / M&P 15T / M&P10
Mossberg MVP 16.25" .308 / Maverick Model 88 Security 8-Shot 12ga / Hunter O/U 12ga
Sphinx SDP Black Line 9mm
Walther PPK Interarms .380
Beretta 950B Minx .22 Short
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 06-04-2013, 2:13 PM
Kestryll's Avatar
Kestryll Kestryll is offline
Head Janitor
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Occupied Reseda, PRK
Posts: 21,506
iTrader: 23 / 100%
Default

Why did this turn in to a debate thread and who gave mrrabbit the wrong definition of 'strawman'?

Seriously, if that's all you're going to say to people at least use it in the right context for crap's sake!

Now, knock of the bickering and thread derailing and stay on topic.
__________________
NRA Benefactor Life Member / CRPA Life Member / SAF Life Member
Calguns.net an incorported entity - President.
The Calguns Shooting Sports Assoc. - Vice President.
The California Rifle & Pistol Assoc. - Director.
DONATE TO NRA-ILA, CGSSA, AND CRPAF NOW!
Opinions posted in this account are my own and unless specifically stated as such are not the approved position of Calguns.net, CGSSA or CRPA.
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 06-04-2013, 2:15 PM
Izzy43's Avatar
Izzy43 Izzy43 is offline
CGSSA Rimfire Coordinator
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Idyllwild, Ca (in the snow)
Posts: 2,670
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kestryll View Post
Why did this turn in to a debate thread and who gave mrrabbit the wrong definition of 'strawman'?

Seriously, if that's all you're going to say to people at least use it in the right context for crap's sake!

Now, knock of the bickering and thread derailing and stay on topic.
Thank you.

Izzy43
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 06-04-2013, 2:16 PM
Izzy43's Avatar
Izzy43 Izzy43 is offline
CGSSA Rimfire Coordinator
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Idyllwild, Ca (in the snow)
Posts: 2,670
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
Strawman - I'm asking the opposite - don't shrink. The normal 50 from March and the 100 and 25 from May for example are just right.

=8-)
PM Sent.
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 06-04-2013, 2:21 PM
Dattebayo's Avatar
Dattebayo Dattebayo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 2,344
iTrader: 17 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
You posted that graphic....not I.

The slight under at 6 o'clock is what I use for 25, the "on" 6 o'clock is what I use for 50, and 12 o'clock roughly 7-8 inches up is what I use for 100 for my Henry AR-7 zeroed at 50.

Go back to May posting and see my 100 and 25. I had no problem seeing those targets - Mr. Consistency won those matches - that's for me to deal with.

This month however the OP posted 25 yard targets that are smaller. I sighted 'em last night - all I see is a tiny ball - I have no chance at estimating and aiming within. I'm reduced to simply hitting the target period.

For those wondering about my eyesight - I build 300-500 bicycle wheels per year @ +/- .002-.003 in. tolerance without the use of a dial indicator.

=8-)
Bottom line the point we are all trying to make is we all see it as a little dot. Atleast I know I am not superman with magnified vision, and I already showed you what my sight picture looks like.

We are all shooting the same target - I personally thought my score was pretty bad. 204/480 possible points is way below 50%. Now hopefully with some practice I can improve on that. My short term goal is to score 240 plus.

This is how I shoot on a normal training day.
__________________
Česká Zbrojovka CZ 452 Trainer 22LR / CZ 712 - 26'' Barrel 12ga
Česká Zbrojovka CZ 2014 P-07 Black / 75B 9mm SAO / 75B 40SW SAO / P-01 NATO
Smith & Wesson M&P 9 / M&P 9Shield / M&P 15T / M&P10
Mossberg MVP 16.25" .308 / Maverick Model 88 Security 8-Shot 12ga / Hunter O/U 12ga
Sphinx SDP Black Line 9mm
Walther PPK Interarms .380
Beretta 950B Minx .22 Short

Last edited by Dattebayo; 06-04-2013 at 2:30 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 06-04-2013, 2:54 PM
10xhobby's Avatar
10xhobby 10xhobby is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 408
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

OK !!!! ENOUGH WITH THE BULL*****

I haven't heard this much crap in a long time, like when my kids played 3rd grade soccer
( oh yea everybody got a trophy )
The targets are what they are LIKE IT OR NOT

mrrabbitt deal with it, or get off this forum !!!!

The match coordinators spend a lot of time and effort to run these matches and I for one appreciate there efforts and I don't care to see one person posting all of this negative crap on my favorite forum
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 06-04-2013, 3:28 PM
rwojnilo's Avatar
rwojnilo rwojnilo is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 16
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Man does my 10/22 like that Wolf MT. Just wish I could find some more. Not sure if I can improve on this one. BTW, I removed the extra 'stuff' on the target to save on printer ink.

100 YRDS Bench Ruger 10/22 Wolf MT BSA scope 24x
Score: 100 (104 if we're doing the extra points)








Last edited by rwojnilo; 06-04-2013 at 3:31 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 06-04-2013, 3:30 PM
Dattebayo's Avatar
Dattebayo Dattebayo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 2,344
iTrader: 17 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rwojnilo View Post
Man does my 10/22 like that Wolf MT. Just wish I could find some more. Not sure if I can improve on this one. BTW, I removed the extra 'stuff' on the target to save on printer ink.

100 YRDS Ruger 10/22 Wolf MT BSA scope 24x
Score: 100 (104 if we're doing the extra points)







That is some awesome shooting man! Love the wood on that stock as well!
__________________
Česká Zbrojovka CZ 452 Trainer 22LR / CZ 712 - 26'' Barrel 12ga
Česká Zbrojovka CZ 2014 P-07 Black / 75B 9mm SAO / 75B 40SW SAO / P-01 NATO
Smith & Wesson M&P 9 / M&P 9Shield / M&P 15T / M&P10
Mossberg MVP 16.25" .308 / Maverick Model 88 Security 8-Shot 12ga / Hunter O/U 12ga
Sphinx SDP Black Line 9mm
Walther PPK Interarms .380
Beretta 950B Minx .22 Short
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 06-04-2013, 3:38 PM
Izzy43's Avatar
Izzy43 Izzy43 is offline
CGSSA Rimfire Coordinator
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Idyllwild, Ca (in the snow)
Posts: 2,670
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rwojnilo View Post
Man does my 10/22 like that Wolf MT. Just wish I could find some more. Not sure if I can improve on this one. BTW, I removed the extra 'stuff' on the target to save on printer ink.

100 YRDS Bench Ruger 10/22 Wolf MT BSA scope 24x
Score: 100 (104 if we're doing the extra points)




That is absolutely spectacular shooting and very nice rifle. You saved me some $$$ this month, no need for me to shoot (but I will anyway). Could you measure the distance from the outside of the two holes that are the farthest from each other and subtract .22". I think that groups is well below MOA (1" @100yds). I hate to shout on the internet but "DO NOT SELL THAT RIFLE".
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 06-04-2013, 3:44 PM
choo2x's Avatar
choo2x choo2x is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 295
iTrader: 21 / 100%
Default

To Mr. Rabbits,

I didn't understand your dilemma until I actually started drawing sight pictures. The way it was explained to me was that I should always make a lollipop with the front sight and the target. Therefore, I have drawn some sight pictures for your consideration. The top row is how you are shooting now, the bottom row is a potential solution for your issue.

Regards,

Shelton

Attached Images
File Type: jpg sight_pictures.jpg (6.4 KB, 164 views)
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 06-04-2013, 4:27 PM
rwojnilo's Avatar
rwojnilo rwojnilo is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 16
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Izzy43 View Post
That is absolutely spectacular shooting and very nice rifle. You saved me some $$$ this month, no need for me to shoot (but I will anyway). Could you measure the distance from the outside of the two holes that are the farthest from each other and subtract .22". I think that groups is well below MOA (1" @100yds). I hate to shout on the internet but "DO NOT SELL THAT RIFLE".
Dattebayo: Thanks, everything just came together for this one. This was my second of 4 targets. First being sighters, and I was not able to replicate the grouping on the following targets. Close but not quite.

Izzy43: Thanks also. This rifle has always loved the wolf ammo and I would never sell it as it's my first customized 10/22. This baby will be handed down some day.

Here's the measurement:

Reply With Quote
  #76  
Old 06-04-2013, 4:32 PM
Dattebayo's Avatar
Dattebayo Dattebayo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 2,344
iTrader: 17 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rwojnilo View Post
Dattebayo: Thanks, everything just came together for this one. This was my second of 4 targets. First being sighters, and I was not able to replicate the grouping on the following targets. Close but not quite.

Izzy43: Thanks also. This rifle has always loved the wolf ammo and I would never sell it as it's my first customized 10/22. This baby will be handed down some day.

Here's the measurement:

Awesome deal. I have a Nikon 6-20 Monarch scope I have been debating on getting rings to slap onto the trainer to see how much tighter I can get the groups when I can see the bull.

Only thing that has been stopping me is that I'd have to take off my aperture sights, and that is not an easy task as I have them on there pretty good. Maybe it is time for me to purchase a .22lr for scoped comps. CZ 452 Trainers are on sale at J&R for $339 atm.
__________________
Česká Zbrojovka CZ 452 Trainer 22LR / CZ 712 - 26'' Barrel 12ga
Česká Zbrojovka CZ 2014 P-07 Black / 75B 9mm SAO / 75B 40SW SAO / P-01 NATO
Smith & Wesson M&P 9 / M&P 9Shield / M&P 15T / M&P10
Mossberg MVP 16.25" .308 / Maverick Model 88 Security 8-Shot 12ga / Hunter O/U 12ga
Sphinx SDP Black Line 9mm
Walther PPK Interarms .380
Beretta 950B Minx .22 Short
Reply With Quote
  #77  
Old 06-04-2013, 4:35 PM
Izzy43's Avatar
Izzy43 Izzy43 is offline
CGSSA Rimfire Coordinator
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Idyllwild, Ca (in the snow)
Posts: 2,670
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rwojnilo View Post
Dattebayo: Thanks, everything just came together for this one. This was my second of 4 targets. First being sighters, and I was not able to replicate the grouping on the following targets. Close but not quite.

Izzy43: Thanks also. This rifle has always loved the wolf ammo and I would never sell it as it's my first customized 10/22. This baby will be handed down some day.

Here's the measurement:

Thanks. My old eyes measure that as about .4" or .4 MOA. Thats an excellent group for 50yds so @ 100yd its amazing for a .22.
Reply With Quote
  #78  
Old 06-04-2013, 4:40 PM
choo2x's Avatar
choo2x choo2x is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 295
iTrader: 21 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
Rear sight is an aperture (peep). It does work exactly as designed - but I really do prefer the old open blades.

Supposedly you look through the peep and focus on the blade and target, not at the peep. That's what I do. So how do you do what you're suggesting other than adjusting the peep blade itself which has no markings for recording 25, 50 and 100 yard zeros?

Time to take out that jewelers file?

=8-)
I'm not sure about aperture sights (I don't have any). Maybe sight in 6 o'clock at 100 yards, then hold lower for the other two shorter distances?

Hopefully, someone with way more experience will chime in with a solution.

To rwojnilo: Nice shooting!!!
Reply With Quote
  #79  
Old 06-04-2013, 4:54 PM
Merc1138 Merc1138 is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 19,742
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
Rear sight is an aperture (peep). It does work exactly as designed - but I really do prefer the old open blades.

Supposedly you look through the peep and focus on the blade and target, not at the peep. That's what I do. So how do you do what you're suggesting other than adjusting the peep blade itself which has no markings for recording 25, 50 and 100 yard zeros?

Time to take out that jewelers file?

=8-)
You adjust your elevation with the peep, and if it doesn't have marks for MOA, mil, or whatever, make your own witness marks for approximate distances and just fine tune as necessary between adjustments.

If you understood how sights work(and people were trying to help you with this...) you'd realize that you can make your own markings if none exist already.

If the sights are not adjustable, then you either continue to make due, or get something more appropriate.
Reply With Quote
  #80  
Old 06-04-2013, 5:07 PM
peterabbits's Avatar
peterabbits peterabbits is offline
CGSSA Rimfire Coordinator
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Coarsegold, CA
Posts: 1,266
iTrader: 30 / 100%
Default

Rwojnilo - holy cow! that's amazing!

i noticed an immediate improvement on painting the front sight post on my 10/22 today - yesterday's second target was a 160, today's was a 177. based upon scores on prior month's targets and the relative size of the various scoring rings, i feel relatively confident that i should be able to get close to the 220 range for a score on this sheet - just going to take some practice. good thing it's a 3 month match! lots of time for practice.

i'm also happy to announce that i should be able to get in some more range time on the longer range targets, just need to either get another gun to put a scope on, or put a better scope on my son's gun. i was able to come up with a 4th person to allow us to sign up for a corporate membership at the indoor range i frequent now, which saves me enough money to also join the fresno rifle and pistol club range on auberry road, which gives me access to an outdoors range up to 100 yds, plus dingers at 200, 220, and 300 yards. with my membership expiring saturday at the firing line, getting that fourth person to agree to sign up was just in time.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 3:48 AM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2021, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.
All opinions, statements and remarks made by Calguns.net on this web site and elsewhere are solely attributable to Calguns.net.



Seams2SewBySusy