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  #201  
Old 08-31-2017, 5:59 PM
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I only worry about breaking laws that exist - if we stress out about laws that don't, we'll go crazier than we already are.
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  #202  
Old 08-31-2017, 6:03 PM
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I only worry about breaking laws that exist - if we stress out about laws that don't, we'll go crazier than we already are.
I here that.
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  #203  
Old 08-31-2017, 6:04 PM
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I really think this guy is Meno. Writes like him.
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  #204  
Old 08-31-2017, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by cockedandglocked View Post
I only worry about breaking laws that exist - if we stress out about laws that don't, we'll go crazier than we already are.
Except that the Legislature has deliberately created uncertainty - Heisenberg laws, if you will.

Is the law this or that? Open the court 'box' to find out....
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  #205  
Old 08-31-2017, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by cockedandglocked View Post
See definition M in the DOJ regulations - it says that en bloc clips and stripper clips are not detachable magazines. So m1 garands can have flash suppressors, and can't be registered.
Thank you, I had missed that
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  #206  
Old 08-31-2017, 10:52 PM
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Most rediculous state ever with horrible laws.
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  #207  
Old 09-01-2017, 2:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
Except that the Legislature has deliberately created uncertainty - Heisenberg laws, if you will.



Is the law this or that? Open the court 'box' to find out....


The realty is virtually none of us will ever have to actually worry about all this. I say "virtually" because there will be one -the one that goes to court - and the possibility of that one being "you" is extremely low, made even lower by keeping a low profile.

It's all fun and games to have an academic devil's advocacy going on, but at some point I've tired of watching Ifilef and meno and whoever else harp on their own interpretation of the law, telling us all over and over and over what we should (read: have) to do.

I plan on being as open ended as legally possible with my registrations, and expect I'll never actually have anyone of consequence even glance at my guns. Keep the dirty side down, fellas.
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  #208  
Old 09-01-2017, 5:33 AM
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I plan to worry less, reload, shoot more. I will stay legal, likely register could always move parts into a featureless lowers later. Wait and see my decision time line is February.
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  #209  
Old 09-01-2017, 9:31 AM
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Originally Posted by inferno999 View Post
The realty is virtually none of us will ever have to actually worry about all this. I say "virtually" because there will be one -the one that goes to court - and the possibility of that one being "you" is extremely low, made even lower by keeping a low profile.

It's all fun and games to have an academic devil's advocacy going on, but at some point I've tired of watching Ifilef and meno and whoever else harp on their own interpretation of the law, telling us all over and over and over what we should (read: have) to do.

I plan on being as open ended as legally possible with my registrations, and expect I'll never actually have anyone of consequence even glance at my guns. Keep the dirty side down, fellas.
In before all the guys "will you pay for my defense if I get caught?"

I totally agree with your thoughts here.


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Originally Posted by stevebla View Post
I plan to worry less, reload, shoot more. I will stay legal, likely register could always move parts into a featureless lowers later. Wait and see my decision time line is February.
Yes, yes, yes. Everyone should adhere to this philosophy. Just shoot.
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  #210  
Old 09-01-2017, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by cockedandglocked View Post
Was that legal to do before? I honestly don't know. If it was legal before, then it will also be legal after you register. If it wasn't, then it still won't be.

I do know you can't take a rifle lower and attach a pistol upper, but I'm not sure how that works with rifle lowers and shotgun uppers.
Sent in an email question to DOJ to try and get clarification.
They called me back and said that one registration is enough, and that I should make a note, like it's stated in the guidelines here, that it might use a shotgun upper.

However, the most interesting part of the call was that the lady stated:
a) You need to attach pictures of _all_ configurations you want to register
b) Changing to a configuration not "registered", eg, not submitted as a picture, would not be legal.

So in a), if you have five lowers and 10 uppers, she claimed that you have to submit pictures of every upper that you want to use on each and every lower.

Get those cameras warmed up!
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  #211  
Old 09-01-2017, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gose View Post
However, the most interesting part of the call was that the lady stated:
a) You need to attach pictures of _all_ configurations you want to register
b) Changing to a configuration not "registered", eg, not submitted as a picture, would not be legal.

So in a), if you have five lowers and 10 uppers, she claimed that you have to submit pictures of every upper that you want to use on each and every lower.

Get those cameras warmed up!
Ya... I won't be doing that. She was not correct that it's illegal. If someone else gets that response from DOJ, ask them them to cite the law that supports that claim.
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  #212  
Old 09-01-2017, 11:46 AM
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Also, there is a limit to the number of pictures you can submit with each firearm. They only allow us to attach the 4 required photos, a photo of a joint registrant proof of address, a photo of a hunting license, and 1 additional photo.

You couldn't attach 40 more photos of each rifle in all 10 different configurations, even if you wanted to.

An Upper assembly is not part of the "firearm" any more than a scope is.

DOJ's opinion on this matter is factually wrong. If they are going to take that position, that should make this coming lawsuit a slam dunk.
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DOJ has only processed 20% of 69k BBRAW apps. Your pending app will take ... "definitely between 2 weeks and 2 years." -Discogodfather

If DOJ visits you regarding your RAW application: Avoid opening your door if they don't have a warrant. Don't consent to a search. Don't "talk your way out of it". Assert your right to remain silent until you have a lawyer present.

2018 CA Legislation Quick-Reference & Statuses


Last edited by cockedandglocked; 09-01-2017 at 11:49 AM..
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  #213  
Old 09-01-2017, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gose View Post
Sent in an email question to DOJ to try and get clarification.
They called me back and said that one registration is enough, and that I should make a note, like it's stated in the guidelines here, that it might use a shotgun upper.

However, the most interesting part of the call was that the lady stated:
a) You need to attach pictures of _all_ configurations you want to register
b) Changing to a configuration not "registered", eg, not submitted as a picture, would not be legal.

So in a), if you have five lowers and 10 uppers, she claimed that you have to submit pictures of every upper that you want to use on each and every lower.

Get those cameras warmed up!
legal...would not be illegal...would not be legal...illegal?

So would a change in any one of their questions be a different configuration?

From reading the laws and regs the only configuration change that is illegal is to change the all important but inconsequential mag release.
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  #214  
Old 09-01-2017, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by cockedandglocked View Post
Ya... I won't be doing that. She was not correct that it's illegal. If someone else gets that response from DOJ, ask them them to cite the law that supports that claim.
Anyone who talks to the DOJ should ask, the person they talk to, these two questions.

1. Are you of average intelligence?
2. Did you read the laws and regulations?


Then before acting on any information gleaned, read the DOJ disclaimer.
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  #215  
Old 09-01-2017, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by cockedandglocked View Post
Also, there is a limit to the number of pictures you can submit with each firearm. They only allow us to attach the 4 required photos, a photo of a joint registrant proof of address, a photo of a hunting license, and 1 additional photo.

You couldn't attach 40 more photos of each rifle in all 10 different configurations, even if you wanted to.

An Upper assembly is not part of the "firearm" any more than a scope is.

DOJ's opinion on this matter is factually wrong. If they are going to take that position, that should make this coming lawsuit a slam dunk.
1 additional photo of a standard mag button, unattached, but suggestive.
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  #216  
Old 09-01-2017, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by PMACA_MFG View Post
Anyone who talks to the DOJ should ask, the person they talk to, these two questions.

1. Are you of average intelligence?
2. Did you read the laws and regulations?


Then before acting on any information gleaned, read the DOJ disclaimer.
The woman that I talked to seemed to be intelligent and fairly well versed in what we were discussing (30900(b)(1), 30515(a)(3), and 5471(x)) and understood at the very least something about firearms. They cannot give opinions, they can only quote laws and regs. Beyond that the suggestion is that you consult a lawyer.
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  #217  
Old 09-01-2017, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by PMACA_MFG View Post
1 additional photo of a standard mag button, unattached, but suggestive.
cute, but ineffective
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  #218  
Old 09-01-2017, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by PMACA_MFG View Post
1 additional photo of a standard mag button, unattached, but suggestive.
Hahaha, not sure that would do anything, but I like the way you think
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If DOJ visits you regarding your RAW application: Avoid opening your door if they don't have a warrant. Don't consent to a search. Don't "talk your way out of it". Assert your right to remain silent until you have a lawyer present.

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  #219  
Old 09-01-2017, 12:38 PM
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I wonder what their advice to someone registering an AR who plans to acquire and install an upper in another caliber would be? Is the DOJ position that once registered further modifications are forbidden?
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  #220  
Old 09-01-2017, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by flyer898 View Post
I wonder what their advice to someone registering an AR who plans to acquire and install an upper in another caliber would be? Is the DOJ position that once registered further modifications are forbidden?
Yes. See above.
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  #221  
Old 09-01-2017, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by gose View Post
Yes. See above.
One contact with DOJ is not good enough to create laws out of thin air. No where does it say in the law or regulations that if you change configuration from a photo submitted that it's illegal. That's absurd. They obviously went way out of their way to state that the BB can't come off. Easy enough for them to add a sentence in the regs stating that the "photographed" configuration can't be changed.

Phone conversations on the subject over the last few weeks have yielded nothing for me, they won't even answer questions like that.
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Someone must put an end to this endless bickering by posting the unadulterated indisputable facts and truth.
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Not checkers, not chess, its Jenga.
"The California matrix of gun control laws is among the harshest in the nation and are filled with criminal law traps for people of common intelligence who desire to obey the law." - U.S. District Judge Roger T. Benitez

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  #222  
Old 09-01-2017, 12:53 PM
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DOJ's position according to one person's phone call with a DOJ employee of unknown qualifications, is that if we change anything, it's a totally new firearm. That would include everything - the scope, the grip, or even just putting Hello Kitty stickers on it.

If that really is their position, and not just a mistaken comment by a DOJ employee that was in over their head, they are going to find that the whole entire Assault Weapon Control Act is going to be compromised as a result of that asinine position.
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If DOJ visits you regarding your RAW application: Avoid opening your door if they don't have a warrant. Don't consent to a search. Don't "talk your way out of it". Assert your right to remain silent until you have a lawyer present.

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Last edited by cockedandglocked; 09-01-2017 at 12:56 PM..
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  #223  
Old 09-01-2017, 12:55 PM
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Lol, if it's illegal, what the hell would you be charged with?
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Someone must put an end to this endless bickering by posting the unadulterated indisputable facts and truth.
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Originally Posted by PMACA_MFG View Post
Not checkers, not chess, its Jenga.
"The California matrix of gun control laws is among the harshest in the nation and are filled with criminal law traps for people of common intelligence who desire to obey the law." - U.S. District Judge Roger T. Benitez

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  #224  
Old 09-01-2017, 12:57 PM
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Lol, if it's illegal, what the hell would you be charged with?
I really, REALLY want to be the test case for this one

"Defendant applied Pokemon stickers to his RAW after it was registered, making it a totally different firearm"
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If DOJ visits you regarding your RAW application: Avoid opening your door if they don't have a warrant. Don't consent to a search. Don't "talk your way out of it". Assert your right to remain silent until you have a lawyer present.

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  #225  
Old 09-01-2017, 1:06 PM
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Originally Posted by gose View Post
Sent in an email question to DOJ to try and get clarification.
Which email did you use Gose? I wanted to send in a few questions and try that route.
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Someone must put an end to this endless bickering by posting the unadulterated indisputable facts and truth.
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Not checkers, not chess, its Jenga.
"The California matrix of gun control laws is among the harshest in the nation and are filled with criminal law traps for people of common intelligence who desire to obey the law." - U.S. District Judge Roger T. Benitez

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  #226  
Old 09-01-2017, 1:06 PM
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falsifying information? Who knows what BS they will make up.
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  #227  
Old 09-01-2017, 1:42 PM
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Manufacturing an "assault weapon" from a registered "assault weapon."


Last edited by stevebla; 09-01-2017 at 1:47 PM..
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  #228  
Old 09-01-2017, 1:45 PM
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^^^ This is exactly what they will get you. They may even visit rangers and run numbers with an I-Pad and pull up the photos right there and take everyone to jail... O lord we are doomed now...
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  #229  
Old 09-01-2017, 1:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gose View Post
Sent in an email question to DOJ to try and get clarification.
They called me back and said that one registration is enough, and that I should make a note, like it's stated in the guidelines here, that it might use a shotgun upper.

However, the most interesting part of the call was that the lady stated:
a) You need to attach pictures of _all_ configurations you want to register
b) Changing to a configuration not "registered", eg, not submitted as a picture, would not be legal.

So in a), if you have five lowers and 10 uppers, she claimed that you have to submit pictures of every upper that you want to use on each and every lower.

Get those cameras warmed up!
Hilarious. I guess they didnt note that I already spoke to them, so someone else from DOJ just called me again.

Her story was that you can only register it in one single configuration and it has to stay in that exact configuration forever.
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  #230  
Old 09-01-2017, 2:02 PM
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Originally Posted by gose View Post
Hilarious. I guess they didnt note that I already spoke to them, so someone else from DOJ just called me again.

Her story was that you can only register it in one single configuration and it has to stay in that exact configuration forever.
So there is two completely different answers from the DOJ to the same question. I have gotten "we cannot comment", "consult an attorney", and "reconfiguration from a BB is prohibited".

Have you been using this web email contact form?
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Someone must put an end to this endless bickering by posting the unadulterated indisputable facts and truth.
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Not checkers, not chess, its Jenga.
"The California matrix of gun control laws is among the harshest in the nation and are filled with criminal law traps for people of common intelligence who desire to obey the law." - U.S. District Judge Roger T. Benitez

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  #231  
Old 09-01-2017, 2:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Discogodfather View Post
So there is two completely different answers from the DOJ to the same question. I have gotten "we cannot comment", "consult an attorney", and "reconfiguration from a BB is prohibited".

Have you been using this web email contact form?
Yeah, I used that one and they called me back same day. Guess they dont want to send emails that can be retained.

When I started asking this lady about her position being completely opposite of how modifications to SB23 registered guns are considered and that there's nothing really in the law, or regulations (even under the "Post-registration prohibitions" section), that prevents changes, she shut down.
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  #232  
Old 09-01-2017, 2:34 PM
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Yeah, I used that one and they called me back same day. Guess they dont want to send emails that can be retained.

When I started asking this lady about her position being completely opposite of how modifications to SB23 registered guns are considered and that there's nothing really in the law, or regulations (even under the "Post-registration prohibitions" section), that prevents changes, she shut down.
Interesting...

We have to remember that these people are minimum wage (or close to it) "temp" workers hired by DOJ to talk on the phone to us and process our applications. They have little more understanding of the law than the drive-thru guy at taco bell understands how their taco sauce is made.

The more contradicting answers we get from DOJ, the better.

I don't think they were counting on all the people they're speaking to on the phone, speaking to each other and coordinating what DOJ said each time. This is why we all need to make sure we document and post ALL communication with DOJ. Great job with that so far, Gose.
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  #233  
Old 09-02-2017, 7:19 PM
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These aren't answers, these are "quick, make up a 'rule' that fits your anti-gun agenda". Pathetic. I hope the CRPA and NRA ILA take action on this.
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Old 09-02-2017, 7:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cockedandglocked View Post
I really, REALLY want to be the test case for this one

"Defendant applied Pokemon stickers to his RAW after it was registered, making it a totally different firearm"
Better yet, NRA sticker.
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Old 09-03-2017, 3:50 PM
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Default Changing uppers

Don't know if someone else brought this up yet but after registering what if you change a .223 upper to a 300 blk or some other caliber? We would be registering the lower but since they want pics, I wonder if caliber changes will not be allowed. I have various uppers but would only register one lower.
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Old 09-03-2017, 4:20 PM
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Changing the upper after registering is fine. For some reason there is a bunch of paranoia about this lately, but there is nothing preventing anyone from legally changing stuff on their rifles, including uppers and caliber changes.

Select "interchangeable barrels" from the caliber list, it's the last item.
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DOJ has only processed 20% of 69k BBRAW apps. Your pending app will take ... "definitely between 2 weeks and 2 years." -Discogodfather

If DOJ visits you regarding your RAW application: Avoid opening your door if they don't have a warrant. Don't consent to a search. Don't "talk your way out of it". Assert your right to remain silent until you have a lawyer present.

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  #237  
Old 09-03-2017, 4:21 PM
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The only thing DOJ has said (in writing) that they dont want us to change is the magazine release button. The rest is fair game, as long as the gun stays legal.
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DOJ has only processed 20% of 69k BBRAW apps. Your pending app will take ... "definitely between 2 weeks and 2 years." -Discogodfather

If DOJ visits you regarding your RAW application: Avoid opening your door if they don't have a warrant. Don't consent to a search. Don't "talk your way out of it". Assert your right to remain silent until you have a lawyer present.

2018 CA Legislation Quick-Reference & Statuses

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  #238  
Old 09-03-2017, 5:07 PM
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Change it anyway, they can't make up laws.
A RAW is a RAW. They have no authority to write legislation.

Tell you what, for those of you that register, if you win your standard mag release that might make them think twice about ever opening the registry again.

Also, anybody have a link to the tyrant registry? We should have that stickied. If they want to register gun owners, their information should be available, and their privacy should be compromised.

Last edited by CAsubject; 09-03-2017 at 7:26 PM..
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  #239  
Old 09-05-2017, 2:04 PM
shaocaholica shaocaholica is online now
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The only way DOJ is going to know if you 'changed' your gun in any way is if the gun has been seized because it was involved in another crime. And even then like everyone is saying it's not necessarily an issue. No one is going around door to door checking gun configuration against the registry. Who would want to do that? Zero gain for huge risk.
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Old 09-05-2017, 2:06 PM
shaocaholica shaocaholica is online now
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So..just to confirm. The new regs state nothing about RAW storage. I can store my RAWs at home however I like provided they are inaccessible to children right?
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