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  #361  
Old 07-10-2018, 4:52 PM
BucDan BucDan is offline
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1. Thanks, I was getting at subsection A of 30945 where I would get permission from my girlfriend to leave it at her house as sometimes I sleep over at her house and leave it there to go to work, where I would then pick it up the next day or upcoming weekend.

2 & 3. Thanks, cleared it up.
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  #362  
Old 07-10-2018, 6:53 PM
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Originally Posted by BucDan View Post
1. Thanks, I was getting at subsection A of 30945 where I would get permission from my girlfriend to leave it at her house as sometimes I sleep over at her house and leave it there to go to work, where I would then pick it up the next day or upcoming weekend.
You can not legally store ANY gun at her house due to the new laws restricting lending firearms.
Previously, it would be a "loan" for only 30 days, then it would become an unlawful transfer.
Now, if she has access to it when you are not present (outside of your home) it would require an FFL PPT transfer.
Yes... the new law actually requires a transfer, BG check, and 10 day wait for a LOAN!
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Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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  #363  
Old 07-10-2018, 9:59 PM
BucDan BucDan is offline
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Is it considered lending, though? It says that storage is okay with permission, which doesn't read as "to lend" to me. She wouldn't have access if I lock the case and take the key.

I'm conflicted now, Librarian says one thing, and you Coke say another.

EDIT: Reread it, it says possession, not storage. I guess if I'm not at her house with the AW, it isn't considered possession. Sucks, oh well.

Good to know about the storage rules though. I was considering leaving a handgun there in a locked carrying case for myself and for her as a repeated lend for her own protection. I guess that's out of the picture, too.

Last edited by BucDan; 07-10-2018 at 10:03 PM..
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  #364  
Old 07-11-2018, 7:53 AM
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What about if you go to the range with a RAW and then drive to a friend's house to keep them there for a few hours until going home? Assuming it's in a locked case and I was there the entire time. Would this violate the transportation restriction?
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  #365  
Old 07-11-2018, 8:03 AM
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How often do the cops visit your friend?
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  #366  
Old 07-11-2018, 10:00 AM
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What about if you go to the range with a RAW and then drive to a friend's house to keep them there for a few hours until going home? Assuming it's in a locked case and I was there the entire time. Would this violate the transportation restriction?
California wants you to bow down and obey.

Or they will have The Man arrest you and destroy your life.
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  #367  
Old 07-11-2018, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Smedkcuf View Post
What about if you go to the range with a RAW and then drive to a friend's house to keep them there for a few hours until going home? Assuming it's in a locked case and I was there the entire time. Would this violate the transportation restriction?
When I hear stuff like this it always reminds me of the "dead hooker in the trunk" analogy. The other thing that comes to mind is "Schrodingers (sp) Cat", the cops will never know what's in your trunk until they open it.
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  #368  
Old 07-11-2018, 5:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Smedkcuf View Post
What about if you go to the range with a RAW and then drive to a friend's house to keep them there for a few hours until going home? Assuming it's in a locked case and I was there the entire time. Would this violate the transportation restriction?
By the letter of the law, you must travel directly between locations where possession or use is legal.
That would preclude stops at McD's, IMHO, you would be legal at a private residence.
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Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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  #369  
Old 07-12-2018, 9:27 AM
skwurl047 skwurl047 is offline
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Registered my RAWs with my current address but planning on moving into my girlfriends house very soon. Can I keep my gun safe and RAWs at her place once i move in so long as I'm the only one with access to the safe?
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  #370  
Old 07-12-2018, 6:56 PM
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Registered my RAWs with my current address but planning on moving into my girlfriends house very soon. Can I keep my gun safe and RAWs at her place once i move in so long as I'm the only one with access to the safe?
Yep.
No requirement to notify DOJ if you move.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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  #371  
Old 07-13-2018, 3:52 PM
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I've read all sorts of answers here on safe storage of BBRAW at home.. I get the part that BBRAW can only be accessible to person it's registered to

- for someone who moved into CA with firearms and didn't have to go thru long gun safe requirements at purchase.. is a California DOJ approved safe or cable lock the only acceptable way to store a BBRAW?
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  #372  
Old 07-13-2018, 4:43 PM
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Does anyone find it odd that theres no word from Jeffrey Scott Kirschenmann on his arrest or case for registering his firearms?
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  #373  
Old 07-13-2018, 5:37 PM
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Default What you can/cannot or must do with Registered Assault Weapons (RAW)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcnyct View Post
I've read all sorts of answers here on safe storage of BBRAW at home.. I get the part that BBRAW can only be accessible to person it's registered to

- for someone who moved into CA with firearms and didn't have to go thru long gun safe requirements at purchase.. is a California DOJ approved safe or cable lock the only acceptable way to store a BBRAW?


A cable lock is NOT sufficient, it still allows possession even if it is deactivated by the lock. You must prevent possession of the RAW by anyone who is not a registrant. A locked box, even a plastic rifle case is sufficient for transport. There is no case law defining whether any particular safe is adequate but there are DOJ approved containers meeting at least RSC (residential security container). Most people with entry level safes in the <$1000 range do not have that and are probably ok, maybe not, no law to say.

If I did not have a safe yet, I would at minimum use a closing and lockable plastic rifle case. And shop for a safe asap. Maybe even with paper trail to show you were attempting to meet that requirement if you got into a court case on the issue.

Andrew - Lancaster, CA
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Last edited by lordmorgul; 07-13-2018 at 5:39 PM..
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  #374  
Old 07-14-2018, 6:07 AM
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Originally Posted by lordmorgul View Post
A cable lock is NOT sufficient, it still allows possession even if it is deactivated by the lock. You must prevent possession of the RAW by anyone who is not a registrant. A locked box, even a plastic rifle case is sufficient for transport. There is no case law defining whether any particular safe is adequate but there are DOJ approved containers meeting at least RSC (residential security container). Most people with entry level safes in the <$1000 range do not have that and are probably ok, maybe not, no law to say.

If I did not have a safe yet, I would at minimum use a closing and lockable plastic rifle case. And shop for a safe asap. Maybe even with paper trail to show you were attempting to meet that requirement if you got into a court case on the issue.

Andrew - Lancaster, CA
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I appreciate your help.

but that's my question.. putting transportation aside.. for home storage only

safe - if you buy the safe, does it have to be a DOJ approved safe

plastic rifle case - does it have to be locked with DOJ approved lock

I guess the better question is.. are DOJ approved safes/locks/etc just what they recommend you buy? Are you required legally to only use DOJ approved items when it comes to home storage?
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  #375  
Old 07-14-2018, 6:17 AM
shaocaholica shaocaholica is offline
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DOJ isn’t going to be testing and approving every single storage product. There is no requirement to have everything ‘DOJ approved’. And you don’t always need a ‘safe’. You can be creative. A locked room with its own key. A locking cabinet.

Not quite sure on a locking case. Someone can easily take possession of a locking case to unlock at another place and time. Not saying this for legal reasons but personal protection of your property.
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  #376  
Old 07-14-2018, 7:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcnyct View Post
I appreciate your help.



but that's my question.. putting transportation aside.. for home storage only



safe - if you buy the safe, does it have to be a DOJ approved safe



plastic rifle case - does it have to be locked with DOJ approved lock



I guess the better question is.. are DOJ approved safes/locks/etc just what they recommend you buy? Are you required legally to only use DOJ approved items when it comes to home storage?


Quote:
Beginning July 1, 2001, the California Department of Justice shall compile, publish, and maintain a roster listing all of the firearm safety devices (FSD) that have been tested by a certified testing laboratory, have been determined to meet the department’s standards for firearm safety devices, and may be sold in this state (for storing pistols and long guns). Firearm safety devices used for random sample testing are obtained from sources other than the manufacturer.

It relates to the sale or the firearm, or the sale of the safety device... not the use of the safety device by the buyer. It’s not a recommendation, it is a test passed before allowing sale of the device without putting warnings on it that the test was passed. See this:
http://www.locksmithledger.com/artic...e-requirements

Quote:
Originally Posted by locksmithledger.com
The idea behind the California Department Of Justice (CDOJ) certification for FSD was to protect children by keeping weapons out of their hands.

Since Jan. 1, 2003, Firearm Safety Devices, which include gun safes without either the UL RSC Listing or CDOJ certification, may not be sold in California for storing pistols and long guns.

Andrew - Lancaster, CA
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  #377  
Old 07-14-2018, 7:17 AM
lordmorgul lordmorgul is online now
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As it relates to RAW, there is no requirement that you use DOJ approved containers, but doing so would possibly make a legal defense of having prevented possession by an unregistered person to the best of your abilities.

If someone breaks into your locked container to gain access, no matter how easy that was... they have violated the law not you.


Andrew - Lancaster, CA
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  #378  
Old 07-14-2018, 7:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcnyct View Post
I appreciate your help.
but that's my question.. putting transportation aside.. for home storage only
safe - if you buy the safe, does it have to be a DOJ approved safe
plastic rifle case - does it have to be locked with DOJ approved lock

I guess the better question is.. are DOJ approved safes/locks/etc just what they recommend you buy? Are you required legally to only use DOJ approved items when it comes to home storage?
DOJ certified storage/safety device requirements relate directly to FFL sales/transfers. http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/fa...5.&lawCode=PEN
Quote:
23635.
(a) Any firearm sold or transferred in this state by a licensed firearms dealer, including a private transfer through a dealer, and any firearm manufactured in this state, shall include or be accompanied by a firearm safety device that is listed on the Department of Justice’s roster of approved firearm safety devices and that is identified as appropriate for that firearm by reference to either the manufacturer and model of the firearm, or to the physical characteristics of the firearm that match those listed on the roster for use with the device
Access to unauthorized persons is spelled out in PEN 25135. Arguably, if you take actions to preclude other prohibited residents (if present) from having access to the gun, you will be in reasonably good shape should someone not prohibited reside there or if someone illegally enters your residence.: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...ctionNum=25135.
Quote:
25135.
(a) A person who is 18 years of age or older, and who is the owner, lessee, renter, or other legal occupant of a residence, who owns a firearm and who knows or has reason to know that another person also residing therein is prohibited by state or federal law from possessing, receiving, owning, or purchasing a firearm shall not keep in that residence any firearm that he or she owns unless one of the following applies:
(1) The firearm is maintained within a locked container.
(2) The firearm is disabled by a firearm safety device.
(3) The firearm is maintained within a locked gun safe.
(4) The firearm is maintained within a locked trunk.
(5) The firearm is locked with a locking device as described in Section 16860, which has rendered the firearm inoperable.
(6) The firearm is carried on the person or within close enough proximity thereto that the individual can readily retrieve and use the firearm as if carried on the person.
(b) A violation of this section is a misdemeanor.
(c) The provisions of this section are cumulative, and do not restrict the application of any other law. However, an act or omission punishable in different ways by different provisions of law shall not be punished under more than one provision.

16860. As used in Sections 16850, 25105, and 25205, “locking device” means a device that is designed to prevent a firearm from functioning and, when applied to the firearm, renders the firearm inoperable. (http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/fa...0.&lawCode=PEN)
It’s up to you to decide what level of comfort you need when managing the risk of storing your guns. But, guns which can’t be seen are less likely to disappear. And guns locked inside a secure container can’t easily walk away.
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Last edited by Dvrjon; 07-14-2018 at 7:57 AM..
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  #379  
Old 07-14-2018, 7:54 AM
jcnyct jcnyct is offline
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Originally Posted by lordmorgul View Post
It relates to the sale or the firearm, or the sale of the safety device... not the use of the safety device by the buyer. It’s not a recommendation, it is a test passed before allowing sale of the device without putting warnings on it that the test was passed. See this:
http://www.locksmithledger.com/artic...e-requirements




Andrew - Lancaster, CA
NRA Life Member, Calguns.net contributor, CGF / SAF / CRPA / FPC / USCCA member
sorry I might get a bit annoying with these questions but wow are these CA gun laws full circles..

so for someone who moved to CA with firearms let's say in 2014 - there's no legal requirement to have these DOJ aprroved safety devices? Firearms weren't purchased in CA.

I ask this because as I understand it, for someone who bought a BB-AR-15 in CA in 2014 and signed the safe affidavit.. that person legally has to have that DOJ approved safe.. right?
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  #380  
Old 07-14-2018, 7:59 AM
jcnyct jcnyct is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordmorgul View Post
As it relates to RAW, there is no requirement that you use DOJ approved containers, but doing so would possibly make a legal defense of having prevented possession by an unregistered person to the best of your abilities.

If someone breaks into your locked container to gain access, no matter how easy that was... they have violated the law not you.


Andrew - Lancaster, CA
NRA Life Member, Calguns.net contributor, CGF / SAF / CRPA / FPC / USCCA member
I understand a RAW doesn't have required DOJ approved containers.

But let's say you bought a BB-AR15 in 2014 and signed the affidavit saying you have the DOJ approved safe. Then you registered that same BB-AR15 into a RAW in 2018.. wouldn't you legally still be required to have that DOJ approved safe?
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  #381  
Old 07-14-2018, 8:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcnyct View Post
sorry I might get a bit annoying with these questions but wow are these CA gun laws full circles..

so for someone who moved to CA with firearms let's say in 2014 - there's no legal requirement to have these DOJ aprroved safety devices? Firearms weren't purchased in CA.

I ask this because as I understand it, for someone who bought a BB-AR-15 in CA in 2014 and signed the safe affidavit.. that person legally has to have that DOJ approved safe.. right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcnyct View Post
I understand a RAW doesn't have required DOJ approved containers.

But let's say you bought a BB-AR15 in 2014 and signed the affidavit saying you have the DOJ approved safe. Then you registered that same BB-AR15 into a RAW in 2018.. wouldn't you legally still be required to have that DOJ approved safe?
Let’s say you sold the AR in 2015. Do you still need to possess the safe?

No.

The statute (Posted above) says the safe or storage device is required for the FFL to make the transfer. Once they have that assertion, they’re done.

The affidavit is dated and states you had the safe on the specific date of transfer. It doesn’t state you’ll keep the safe forever. What if you sold the earlier safe and bought a better one?

What you do with your property and how you store it is your business...and your responsibility. If you decide to sell your safe and store your gun under your mattress, you can. You can also be found guilty of criminal storage of a firearm.
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  #382  
Old 07-14-2018, 8:36 AM
lordmorgul lordmorgul is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcnyct View Post
I understand a RAW doesn't have required DOJ approved containers.



But let's say you bought a BB-AR15 in 2014 and signed the affidavit saying you have the DOJ approved safe. Then you registered that same BB-AR15 into a RAW in 2018.. wouldn't you legally still be required to have that DOJ approved safe?


At the time when you signed the safe affidavit.. you had to have a safe, that was to absolve the FFL from responsibility to sell you a cable lock. Now, it doesn’t matter either way.

You do not have to keep the little cable locks that are sold with guns either.

If you don’t have a safe and you do have kids present in the house at any time, the cable locks are a useful way to meet the requirement to keep working firearms disabled or locked out of children’s possession. But how you must do that is not specified.


Andrew - Lancaster, CA
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  #383  
Old 07-14-2018, 8:46 AM
shaocaholica shaocaholica is offline
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No one is going to bother you about it unless your kids or guests end up hurting someone with your guns. Make sure that never happens and stop worrying so much about the fine print.
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  #384  
Old 07-14-2018, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
DOJ certified storage/safety device requirements relate directly to FFL sales/transfers. http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/fa...5.&lawCode=PEN
Important to remember that firearm storage devices are not unlike the assault weapon laws. They are "approved" by name OR by characteristic.
I'd go so far as to say that the majority of gun safes available are not listed by CA... and honestly, the majority of what IS listed is more suitable as an ammo cabinet than it is as a gun storage cabinet.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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  #385  
Old 07-14-2018, 10:34 AM
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thank you.. I appreciate everyone's help.

sounds like the whole idea of DOJ approved devices in the long run means nothing
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  #386  
Old 07-14-2018, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcnyct View Post
thank you.. I appreciate everyone's help.

sounds like the whole idea of DOJ approved devices in the long run means nothing
Remember, it’s NOT the DOJ. It’s the Progressives (and some R’s) in the Legislature that brought us these insignificant, feel-good measures.
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  #387  
Old 07-14-2018, 5:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
Important to remember that firearm storage devices are not unlike the assault weapon laws. They are "approved" by name OR by characteristic.
I'd go so far as to say that the majority of gun safes available are not listed by CA... and honestly, the majority of what IS listed is more suitable as an ammo cabinet than it is as a gun storage cabinet.
Safes are subject to regulatory specifications:

11 CCR § 4100. https://govt.westlaw.com/calregs/Doc...ta=(sc.Default)
Quote:
§ 4100. Gun Safe Standards.
An acceptable gun safe is either one the following:
(a) A gun safe that meets all of the following standards:
(1) Shall be able to fully contain firearms and provide for their secure storage.
(2) Shall have a locking system consisting of at minimum a mechanical or electronic combination lock. The mechanical or electronic combination lock utilized by the safe shall have at least 10,000 possible combinations consisting of a minimum three numbers, letters, or symbols. The lock shall be protected by a case-hardened (Rc 60+) drill-resistant steel plate, or drill-resistant material of equivalent strength.
(3) Boltwork shall consist of a minimum of three steel locking bolts of at least 1/2-inch thickness that intrude from the door of the safe into the body of the safe or from the body of the safe into the door of the safe, which are operated by a separate handle and secured by the lock.
(4) A gun safe shall be capable of repeated use. The exterior walls shall be constructed of a minimum 12-gauge thick steel for a single-walled safe, or the sum of the steel walls shall add up to at least 0.100 inches for safes with two walls. Doors shall be constructed of a minimum one layer of 7-gauge steel plate reinforced construction or at least two layers of a minimum 12-gauge steel compound construction.
(5) Door hinges shall be protected to prevent the removal of the door. Protective features include, but are not limited to: hinges not exposed to the outside, interlocking door designs, dead bars, jeweler's lugs and active or inactive locking bolts.
(b) A gun safe that is able to fully contain firearms and provide for their secure storage, and is certified to/listed as meeting Underwriters Laboratories Residential Security Container rating standards by a Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory (NRTL).
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