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FFL's Forum For open discussion between FFLs and polite questions for FFLs. |
View Poll Results: Should FFLs refuse to honor exemptions for LEO firearm purchases? | |||
Yes, either all should be able to buy it or none. | 217 | 72.82% | |
Yes, but only for personal use, not for duty use. | 9 | 3.02% | |
Yes, but only for duty use, not for personal use. | 4 | 1.34% | |
No, if the exemption exists, the FFL should honor it | 65 | 21.81% | |
I have no opinion | 3 | 1.01% | |
Voters: 298. You may not vote on this poll |
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#81
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Bottom line is the law will never change.
So what's the point of arguing? Would it not be better to fight against the upcoming stupid feel good gun laws proposed in California? Or fight to overturn the law related to the handgun list itself?
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Poke'm with a stick! |
#82
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Sorry you have given up. The law does change, sometime for the better, sometimes not.
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#83
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I personally think, when it comes to firearm, if LEO are going to be treated different based on the reasons that they are trained in handling 30 round mag, or off-roster gun, the same training should be available to any citizen. If not, the government have effectively created a specially "elite class" by appointment.
When I into my LGS, there is a section for LEO only, or should I say VIP. Than there is the another section for the rest of us commoner... B |
#85
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Not giving up... just not gong to waste any more time on this issue. It's a dead end.
I equate this issue to complaining about weeds in your yard while ignoring that your house is on fire. I'm really glad I'm out of California. And all the silliness there.
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Poke'm with a stick! |
#86
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Bottom line, you can choose how you run your business.
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LASD Retired 1978-2011 NRA Life Member CRPA Life Member NRA Rifle Instructor NRA Shotgun Instructor NRA Range Safety Officer DOJ Certified Instructor Last edited by Ron-Solo; 04-25-2013 at 4:35 PM.. |
#87
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Is part of the argument not that LEO's shouldn't have "special privileges" but rather that we should all have the same rights? LEO's are gun owners too however their exemptions to the laws they enforce allows politicians to use Department endorsements for their Gun Control legislation which hurts us all.
Btw like this list that was posted http://www.thepoliceloophole.com/ |
#89
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And yes, the law would not have gone through if the exemption was not there.
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#90
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Do you sell guns to non-residents aliens with a hunting license? Those are exceptions too! One could take the viewpoint that nobody is above the law, that only US residents should be allowed guns, and that by allowing the special exception for hunting license to be used, one is implicitly endorsing it.
Or look at the CA AWB. Why can I buy a Stag-15 from you, when a Colt or Armalite AR-15 is banned? By selling stripped Stag lowers (or whatever brand of OLL you happen to carry), are you not putting one manufacturer of rifles above the law? Why do I bring up those examples? To demonstrate the hypocrisy of your viewpoint. Face it, most of federal and state gun law is a set of exceptions to general bans. Why did you pick out this particular exception to be the one you don't want to honor any longer? Your political arguments make no sense. The press will not pick it up, individual LEOs will not apply political pressure, and even if they did, it wouldn't make any difference (the other 99% of gun owners in California aren't getting anywhere with their political pressure either). Your claim that the power of police unions is such that they can block gun legislation in Sacramento is laughable; I know lobbyists for some public safety unions, and they complain that they have no political power at all, not even to stop 15% pay cuts and mandatory furlough days. So, why is this particular exception one you want to battle? What is your ulterior motive? For most Calguns posters, the general anti-authoritarian (i.e., cop-hating) attitude would be the first guess. I don't know whether you fall into that category or not. |
#91
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#92
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Then you go on to say that additional limits should be placed on the sale of firearms, which is the exact opposite of the issue. Quote:
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The LEO exemption creates a different class of citizen, an elite, but more importantly the exemption allowed the law to get passed. Quote:
The argument actually makes sense, although some don't like it because they believe that LEOs should be an elite. Money issues are different. Quote:
It is a means of fighting the propaganda in which these stupid laws are pushed. Obama said that AR firearms should be military only, have no business on the streets of America and are only used to kill large number of people, so then please explain why non-military government employees have these weapons for use on civilians? Why do they have a need to kill a large number of civilians? You know that there will be an exemption for LEOs, right? It is a lie to push the law. Civilians have the same reason to have these weapons as LEOs, Rangers, etc. Again, answer the question as to why a LEO should be allowed to purchase a firearm for their own personal use when a non-LEO can not.
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#93
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That is funny since the last paragraph is just an attack and does not address the actual issues, which if you had read things you would know.
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#94
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There is no point arguing with you, as you clearly do not wish to have your viewpoint questioned or criticized. The arguing I'm doing below is for the benefit of the general public, not for you.
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My personal viewpoint: I'm happy for LEOs that they have an exception. I would love it if everybody could buy these guns, but that's not the world we live in. Quote:
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I can also give a more factual answer. LEOs are guaranteed to be trained in handling guns. While some non-LEOs are also such trained (sometimes far better than the the average LEO), the vast majority of non-LEOs have not been trained. And in particular, there is no guarantee that a non-LEO gun buyer has any familiarity with guns and gun safety procedures (other than the very superficial HSC and handling demonstration). Therefore, LEOs can be expected to be able to handle inherently unsafe handguns better than general non-LEOs. Furthermore, some LEOs are issued guns that are not on the roster, and it makes sense that a LEO should be able to buy, for home use, another copy (or a close relative) of the model he carries on his belt for 40 hours a week. Quote:
The law creates different classes of citizens or people all the time. An example from the current political debate: Only about half the people in this country are allowed to marry a man (namely only women). That right there creates a different class of citizen. Doesn't it bug you greatly that you or me will never be able to enter into the holy bond of matrimony with Chuck Norris? All that stands between each of us and wedded bliss is the little thing called "DOMA" (and the fact that neither of the two of us are Chuck Norris' type). And the fact that the LEO exception allowed the roster to pass: Even if that's true (and one might argue that the SASS exception was much more important, do you refuse to sell single-action six shooters), there is no need to punish current LEOs for the fact that their particular group was exploited for political gain a few decades ago. It's not the fault of the average beat copy of today that the legislature did something stupid when it passed the roster. Quote:
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Most people are not only OK with LEOs being an elite, they like it. You are free to advocate that LEOs should have their privileges removed. Two words of warning though. First, you won't get very far with the general population (outside a small group of anti-authoritarians on the left and right fringe of the political spectrum). Second, starting that by the least important part (namely the safe handgun roster exception) is the wrong end. By the way, do you know about another legal benefit that LEOs have: they don't have to divulge their address on their driver's license. Instead, it says "confidential" there. Which is a great way to get out of speeding tickets. A friend of mine (whose license does say "confidential") has had to threaten CHiPpies with filing complaints to force them to get him the speeding ticket he justly deserved. Quote:
(For amusement, I know cops that used to carry a 1911 cocked and locked with a round in the chamber, and retired recently, and none of those 1911 models were ever drop tested). Quote:
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By the way, I object to the term "civilian" being used as the opposite of LEO. Most LEOs are civilians too (except for the ones that are current or former members of the military). Quote:
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Personally, while I (as a harmless non-LEO, what you call "civilian") would love to have flash grenades, armored vehicles, full-auto M4s, flashing red lights on my car, government-paid body armor, and fabulously good walkie-talkies, those items have to be restricted, for public safety. That has long been the consensus, and will probably remain so. It has even entered political theory (look up "monopoly on the use of force" sometime). Last edited by chainsaw; 05-13-2013 at 1:21 PM.. |
#95
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Due to the character limit, some quotes had to be reduced/eliminated. Quote:
Gotta love it. You really want to claim that there are two classes of non-citizens if someone has a hunting license? ANYONE can get a hunting license, which means that ALL would be allowed to buy a firearm. Not everyone can be a LEO unless they want to change the system so that a citizen can become a LEO for $1/year. Quote:
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So, you seem to be saying again that we should not do anything about it. Under that view, then I guess nothing should have been done about all the Civil Rights issues because that it just the way it was and there will always be elites, so people should have just accepted it. It is not about punishment, it is about treating all the same. Quote:
Things don't get on the front page at the start, often it starts small and gets bigger. Quote:
What does not make a difference is your view of not doing anything at all. Quote:
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You are being very dishonest with this statement as you have no proof that he didn't say it, but I guess anything to promote your personal agenda. Quote:
Why do you bring up the "wild west"? That is not the issue, but you did not mention the "civilized east" either, which is not what people think it was either. Quote:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/civilian?s=t Quote:
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The funny thing is that you are saying the civilians should not be better armed than the criminals, but my guess you have not put that much thought into your statements to realize that. Quote:
All of those items, which you say needs to be restricted, are also restricted for criminals as well, right? Oh, they can bring in drugs, but they won't bring in or steal any of those items, so all of those restrictions only apply to the law abiding and not the criminals. It seems that you have been brainwashed very well.
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#96
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The marriage example is just to show you that our law segregates people all the time. The fact that LEOs are "more equal than others" is just one example of many. If you want to be consistent, you need to start getting upset about a myriad of other special rights. Quote:
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But a few LEOs in the state are very far away from the tipping point. All you would manage to accomplish by your proposed action is to piss off a few LEOs, put the pro-gun camp in dangerous proximity to anti-authoritarian fringe groups (a.k.a. cop haters), and not accomplish any pro-gun legislative success. Quote:
But: It is very sane that a LEO who is issued a certain model pistol (say the S&W M&P) can buy the compact model of the same pistol for personal off-duty carry, regardless whether that second one has passed the roster or not. Or that a LEO can buy a tiny revolver for a personal BUG that he keeps in an ankle holster, whether that model is on the roster or not. The problem is that gun law can't easily distinguish between a .22LR target shooting pistol, a compact semi-auto pistol, and a 5-shot J-frame .38SP revolver. So it errs on the side of caution, and allows LEOs any handguns, roster or not. Quote:
I'm 100% sure that a majority of the population would agree with the following statement: "LEOs should have access to guns that are more powerful than what other people can legally buy". Perhaps not a 90% majority, but definitely a majority. Quote:
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I'm sorry about that last statement, that was meant as humor. Claiming that your opponent is brainwashed is not a tenable argument. |
#97
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Not true. In case you don't get it, you would need to be able to get hired.
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Based on your comments, it seems that you do have a serious crush on Chuck Norris. Quote:
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Do you think that the testing is too difficult? Quote:
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You are brainwashed, your statements show that. Oh, no response to what a civilian is?
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#98
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I used to refuse to do this. Now I do it. I love the exemptions. Gets more non-roster guns into CA. That is a good thing.
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NRA Benefactor Life Member 01 Dealer Redding, CA US Army MP Corps Veteran Former NRA Pistol Coach Level 3 I am always looking for Beretta D models in 9mm or a Compact Type M. |
#99
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My Wife is a LEO, Before she was able to carry she had to take the PC 832 class. Which was available to anyone.
If only I could take the course and get the off rosters and std cap mags. Maybe the Sheriff could give me a letter to exempt me from the 10 day wait too. *drifts off to the land of make believe* |
#101
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Few weeks ago I was in a local shop and a sheriff was picking up like 5 gen 4 glocks. All bragging about how he can buy them online and have him shipped here with no 10 day wait, mag limits, or purchase restrictions. Then he said how cheap he can get him. He didn't make friends in the gunshop thats for sure.
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Good decisions come from experience. Experience comes from poor decisions. |
#102
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You married a female police officer? I assumed most of them preferred the ladies by the look of em.
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Good decisions come from experience. Experience comes from poor decisions. |
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