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Long Distance Shooting Discuss tools, techniques, tips and theories of long distance shooting

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  #1  
Old 07-07-2020, 1:06 PM
RideWest RideWest is offline
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Default My Valkyrie Experiment

I jumped into the Valkyrie game to see if it could be an inexpensive path to long range shooting. I had some spare parts and finding a PSA upper on sale for $360 was a good enough reason to try Valkyrie. My expectations were not high, I just wanted to be able to hit steel at 1000 yards with consistency. I wasn’t going to compete, and didn’t want to spend a lot on a high end barrel.

What does $360 dollars buy you? A complete upper with a bolt, BCG, handguard, barrel (20” 416 stainless steel 1/6.5 twist), and a staked adjustable gas block. The upper has proven to be reliable over my first 500 rounds. American Eagle 75 grain plinking ammo is cheap, but in a 20” barrel, it will not stay supersonic at sea level and get you much past 900 yards. Heavier bullets between 80-90 grains are needed beyond a 1000 yards.

Valkyrie fits a niche that lets you run higher BC bullets optimized for long range in a small frame AR. My Valkyrie tended to struggle obtaining 1 MOA groups using factory ammo with heavier bullets. It’s not a stability issue with a 1/6.5 twist, unlike some problems reported early on with 1/7.0 twist barrels and 90 grain SMK’s. Additionally, data has shown if you achieve muzzle velocities of 2650 fps or greater, a 1/7.0 twist barrel can effectively stabilize 90 grain rounds.

Since my Valkyrie seems more finicky with heavier grain bullets. It’s a catch-22, because you need those high BC bullets for long range shooting. Hand loading and using high end barrels from someone who specializes in Valkyrie, will help considerably. To shoot consistent groups with heavier bullets, you will need to spend time developing load data for your barrel. If you don’t hand load, factory match ammo such as the 90 grain SMK’s and 88 grain ELD’s are still very capable of hitting steel at 1000 yards.

Bullets that work for hand loading and others mentioned online are: The 80 grain SMK, 80.5 grain Berger Full bore, 85.5 grain Berger hybrid, and 88 grain Hornady ELD-M. Powders that seem to work are: CFE-223, H4895, Varget, and AR Comp.

The Starline Brass web site has a bunch of reloading data and it does includes 90 grain SMK’s with a good group (.81”), using 25.0 grains of CFE, with velocities of 2623 fps in a 22” bolt action barrel and 1/6.5 twist. I only shot one group at 100 yards with 90 grain SMK’s and 25.0 grains of CFE. The group appeared to be just over 1 MOA through a spotting scope (the range was hot).

Note: Using more aggressive charge loads with heavier bullets seem to adversely affect group size to gain velocity. The max CFE load for Berger 85.5 hybrid bullets isn’t published, but I found that 26.0 grains was a good compromise between velocity and group size (about 1 MOA) with my barrel.

To answer the question can a moderate cost Valkyrie shoot well? My experience is it can group heavier bullets (85-90 grain) between 1.0” and 1.5” inches with hand loads. Bullets closer to 80 grains require a lot less work to obtain groups around .75” inches. These bullets can easily stay supersonic at 1000 yards and have a couple of benefits, they are less expensive, have better stability, good BC’s and can be pushed to higher velocities. If your goal is to hit steel at 1000 yards, a budget upper can accomplish that and also be a great introduction to long range shooting.
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Old 07-07-2020, 5:21 PM
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Old 07-07-2020, 6:05 PM
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I thought about the Valkyrie in a bolt gun but thought that it needed a 24" barrel to get the most out of it.

I built a 22.250 AI on a 26", 1:10" twist barrel that I had, instead. I can stay supersonic to 1,000 yards at 2,650 feet elevation, (Cuyama range) with the 68 grain SMKs that shoot the best in my gun. The next barrel will be a faster twist for heavier bullets.
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Old 07-07-2020, 6:33 PM
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Default My Valkyrie Experiment

waiting for 6mm ARC field data.

Last edited by Jesse 2; 08-03-2020 at 8:36 AM..
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Old 07-07-2020, 7:33 PM
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I have a JP 20” 1/7 upper, threw it on a BCM lower and an Athalon optic. I shot sub moa at a hundred, I put 30 rounds thru it, it’s not for me, I like my bolt rifles better.
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Old 07-07-2020, 10:12 PM
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Go 30-06! No problem with energy, A2
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Old 07-08-2020, 6:04 AM
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Go 30-06! No problem with energy, A2
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Old 07-08-2020, 12:10 PM
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Default Bolt action Rifle

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Originally Posted by HAVOC5150 View Post
I have a JP 20” 1/7 upper, threw it on a BCM lower and an Athalon optic. I shot sub moa at a hundred, I put 30 rounds thru it, it’s not for me, I like my bolt rifles better.
I think my next rifle will be a bolt action, because I don't own one. The Valkyrie for me was seeing limitations in a .223 Wylde barrel and wanting to hit steel at 1000 yards. So in that comparison, up to 800 yards the Wylde works great in an 18" barrel, but beyond that it's very limited.

The Valkyrie is much better at past 800 yards, and has no issues at 1000 yards. It also has more energy, so you can hear impacts on steel at longer distances compared to .223. Someone who is already established in long range shooting, would probably not be interested in a Valkyrie gas gun.
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Old 07-08-2020, 2:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RideWest View Post
I think my next rifle will be a bolt action, because I don't own one. The Valkyrie for me was seeing limitations in a .223 Wylde barrel and wanting to hit steel at 1000 yards. So in that comparison, up to 800 yards the Wylde works great in an 18" barrel, but beyond that it's very limited.

The Valkyrie is much better at past 800 yards, and has no issues at 1000 yards. It also has more energy, so you can hear impacts on steel at longer distances compared to .223. Someone who is already established in long range shooting, would probably not be interested in a Valkyrie gas gun.
Move to a short action 0.473 case head 6.5mm in a bolt gun and you will get MUCH more activity with the steel plate on impact than ANY of the 22's or 6's.
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Old 07-08-2020, 3:28 PM
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I was actually thinking of a Sig Cross in 6.5 CM, but I just heard that production has been delayed into next year. I am not familiar with a short action .473 case, but understand that a round like 6.5 Creedmoor is inherently more accurate than anything in 22 caliber, and of course would have more energy.
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Old 07-08-2020, 5:18 PM
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I am not familiar with a short action .473 case, but understand that a round like 6.5 Creedmoor is inherently more accurate than anything in 22 caliber, and of course would have more energy.
0.473" is the boltface size for 6.5 Creedmoor.
I was differentiating from smaller cases like the 0.440" PPC, 0.420" SPC or 0.380" 223 families.
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Old 07-08-2020, 6:01 PM
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Thank you, I didn't realize you meant a Creedmoor bolt face dimension. I am familiar with SPC .420, but only because it's also the Valkyrie bolt face. So yes a 6.5 Creedmoor bolt action will be my next purchase.
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Old 08-05-2020, 7:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Fjold View Post
I thought about the Valkyrie in a bolt gun but thought that it needed a 24" barrel to get the most out of it.

I built a 22.250 AI on a 26", 1:10" twist barrel that I had, instead. I can stay supersonic to 1,000 yards at 2,650 feet elevation, (Cuyama range) with the 68 grain SMKs that shoot the best in my gun. The next barrel will be a faster twist for heavier barrels.
How many rounds do you have through the 22-250 AI? How’s the accuracy holding?
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Old 08-06-2020, 2:45 PM
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FWIW SIG announced CROSS rifles are now shipping.
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Old 08-06-2020, 7:05 PM
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Default Sig Cross

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FWIW SIG announced CROSS rifles are now shipping.
Thank you, I just heard the same thing. There seems to be some debate on the forum regarding the Sig Cross. I seen a few reviews of people who had loaners from Sig, to test and evaluate. They were positive, and Sig did ask for input from hunters, PRS and tactical types before building it.

While each of those catagories has different requirements, there is some over lap. Hence the cross, Sig will be offering longer replacement barrels, a carbon fiber barrel option and eventually a PRS specific version. They provide a choice of flat picanney rail, 20 MOA rail or direct ring scope attachment.

I get the rear stock isn't as cosmetically nice as one on a $5k rifle, but at its price point it does a lot of things well. The grip angle appears similar to other skeleton stocks, but I understand the concerns over thumb position. I do like the folding stock, the lighter weight, the fact that it takes AICS compatible PMags and has an AR style barrel nut. I am going to look at one, it's on my short list.

Last edited by RideWest; 08-07-2020 at 7:55 AM..
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Old 08-06-2020, 7:52 PM
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I have 846 rounds of the 68 grain SMK, Barnes 36 and 50 grain VGs through this barrel since AI'ing it and 422 when it was a conventional 22.250. I haven't done any formal accuracy testing in the last year but it regularly shoots less than 1/2 MOA with the 36 grain Barnes VGs.

My barrel is a three groove PacNor Supermatch so it has really wide lands that are more resistant to erosion.
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Old 08-09-2020, 1:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Fjold View Post
I have 846 rounds of the 68 grain SMK, Barnes 36 and 50 grain VGs through this barrel since AI'ing it and 422 when it was a conventional 22.250. I haven't done any formal accuracy testing in the last year but it regularly shoots less than 1/2 MOA with the 36 grain Barnes VGs.

My barrel is a three groove PacNor Supermatch so it has really wide lands that are more resistant to erosion.
Sounds like a laser for Pdog town or that ultra long range Cayote... I was playing around with the idea of 22-250 AI with 1/8 twist.
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Old 08-10-2020, 5:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RideWest View Post
Thank you, I just heard the same thing. There seems to be some debate on the forum regarding the Sig Cross. I seen a few reviews of people who had loaners from Sig, to test and evaluate. They were positive, and Sig did ask for input from hunters, PRS and tactical types before building it.

While each of those catagories has different requirements, there is some over lap. Hence the cross, Sig will be offering longer replacement barrels, a carbon fiber barrel option and eventually a PRS specific version. They provide a choice of flat picanney rail, 20 MOA rail or direct ring scope attachment.

I get the rear stock isn't as cosmetically nice as one on a $5k rifle, but at its price point it does a lot of things well. The grip angle appears similar to other skeleton stocks, but I understand the concerns over thumb position. I do like the folding stock, the lighter weight, the fact that it takes AICS compatible PMags and has an AR style barrel nut. I am going to look at one, it's on my short list.
What don't you like about the thumb position?
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Old 08-10-2020, 8:27 PM
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The thumb position was a reference to the running post discussing the Cross. I just ment that I understood the concerns some hunters may have with an AR style grip related to thumb position. I don't think thumb position would be an issue for me. All the bolt action rifles at the PRS match I attended this past weekend had AR style vertical pistol grips.
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Old 08-11-2020, 6:48 PM
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I didn't follow that discussion. You can put your thumb anywhere you want on an AR grip or get one where you can.
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Old 08-22-2020, 12:13 PM
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Default Vertices Grip

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I didn't follow that discussion. You can put your thumb anywhere you want on an AR grip or get one where you can.
I found an EVG grip that looks like it might work for PRS, and has a thumb rest built in. On the Cross it looks like Sig shipped the .308's first, but are just starting to distribute the 6.5 CM to stores.

Not sure why the delay, but Snipers Hide mentioned something about a new bolt for the .308's, due to an extractor problem. So maybe Sig needed time to resolve that issue.
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Old 10-16-2020, 5:59 PM
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As an update on the Cross, Sig has started to ship them again. I have seen comments on Snipers Hide that Cabalas and Sportsmans Wharehouse have been getting them in both .308 and 6.5 CM.

In shooting mine for the first time today. I used hand loads with H4350 (40.5 / 41.0 / 41.5 grains), Starline brass with small rifle primers (BR4), and Berger 140 gr hybrid target bullets (G1 BC of .607). I think charge weights somewhere in the 40.5 - 41.0 are going to work well for me.

As an update I have settled on 40.8 grains of H4350 for my Cross in 6.5 CM.

I did used a "Little Bastard" muzzle brake for 6.5 CM, and the recoil wasn't bad at all. The manufacturer claims it reduces recoil 40%. I would say comparing my hotter Valkyrie loads to these moderate 6.5 CM loads. The 6.5 had a bit more recoil, but it was less than I had expected.

https://www.sigsauer.com/wp-content/...-REV-02-LR.pdf

Last edited by RideWest; 11-05-2020 at 1:35 PM..
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