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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 05-19-2019, 5:00 AM
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Default Number of handguns lost due to "The Roster"

Just did an informal calculation of the number of guns that have been removed from the California Handgun Roster since it's inception. Looks like 25 guns listed per page, roster is 63 pages long. 25 X 63 = approximately 1575. Gawd...have that many handguns really been taken away? Truly a case of death by a thousand cuts...
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Old 05-19-2019, 5:33 AM
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That is their plan.
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Old 05-19-2019, 7:21 AM
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Originally Posted by NorzelKid View Post
Just did an informal calculation of the number of guns that have been removed from the California Handgun Roster since it's inception. Looks like 25 guns listed per page, roster is 63 pages long. 25 X 63 = approximately 1575. Gawd...have that many handguns really been taken away? Truly a case of death by a thousand cuts...
The numbers are skewed due to model variations. When a specific gun drops, all of its variants drop. For example, when Colt dropped 1911 pistols, all commemorative 1911s dropped. They were the same gun, but had a different commemorative roll mark. When pistols get dropped, both fixed- and adjustable-sight models drop...but they are, essentially, the same gun.

When a single model of a gun offered in 9mm or .40 is dropped, two guns are counted.
When a gun is offered in a single caliber, but with different grips, each of the grip variants is a separate gun counted.

DOJ plays the game the other way, to claim there are hundreds of guns available on the Roster, when, in fact, they are counting varying barrel lengths, roll-marks, etc. as different guns. FPC debunks this premise as a basis for the lawsuit, showing the number of guns available is inflated due to inconsequential model variants.
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Last edited by Dvrjon; 05-19-2019 at 7:27 AM..
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Old 05-19-2019, 9:46 AM
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One would need to account for every single model made that is available in free America, and not in Commiefornia, to get a grasp on the true impact of the roster.
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Old 05-19-2019, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
DOJ plays the game the other way, to claim there are hundreds of guns available on the Roster, when, in fact, they are counting varying barrel lengths, roll-marks, etc. as different guns. FPC debunks this premise as a basis for the lawsuit, showing the number of guns available is inflated due to inconsequential model variants.
That’s a trap in the debate though. The more you argue down the “real” number by claiming that similar guns are the same, the more you’re arguing the roster isn’t actually hurting you because you could just buy something similar.

Better to stick with, “it’s a small and shrinking list by any measure.”
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Old 05-19-2019, 12:21 PM
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We know the Democratic Party came up with this Does anyone know which governor signed it ?
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Old 05-19-2019, 12:27 PM
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Old 05-19-2019, 1:44 PM
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Originally Posted by ja308 View Post
We know the Democratic Party came up with this Does anyone know which governor signed it ?
The one that got recalled.
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Old 05-19-2019, 2:37 PM
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You’d have add to that all of the new models (and variants) introduced since 2008 too...
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Old 05-19-2019, 2:55 PM
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I wish every handgun would go off the roster.. every single one..

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Old 05-19-2019, 2:55 PM
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Originally Posted by champu View Post
That’s a trap in the debate though. The more you argue down the “real” number by claiming that similar guns are the same, the more you’re arguing the roster isn’t actually hurting you because you could just buy something similar.

Better to stick with, “it’s a small and shrinking list by any measure.”
Try that again...

If you own a 2019 Blue Honda Civic, and you want a different car, you would buy a 2019 Red Honda Civic?

You can have a specific gun in black or FDE. That’s not two choices of different guns.

If you own a Colt 1911 with plastic grips and you swap out the grips with stag, you now own 2 different 1911s?

If you list 10 issues of one specific gun design each of which differs from the others only by their different commemorative issues, you still are listing only one gun.

The more one makes the case that one gun is the same as another, the more you shrink the availability and emphasize the infringement.

DOJ argues the opposite. The Roster has a bunch of guns on it. In their view, it could contain only a single gun design, but as long as it comes in different colors, you have choice and the 2A Right isn’t infringed.
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Old 05-19-2019, 6:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
Try that again...

If you own a 2019 Blue Honda Civic, and you want a different car, you would buy a 2019 Red Honda Civic?

You can have a specific gun in black or FDE. That’s not two choices of different guns.

If you own a Colt 1911 with plastic grips and you swap out the grips with stag, you now own 2 different 1911s?

If you list 10 issues of one specific gun design each of which differs from the others only by their different commemorative issues, you still are listing only one gun.

The more one makes the case that one gun is the same as another, the more you shrink the availability and emphasize the infringement.

DOJ argues the opposite. The Roster has a bunch of guns on it. In their view, it could contain only a single gun design, but as long as it comes in different colors, you have choice and the 2A Right isn’t infringed.
I didn’t say I found the argument compelling, I said it’s a trap in the debate.

Why are different colors where you would stop when arguing two firearms are really the same firearm? What about all the 1911s on the roster vs 1911s not on the roster?
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Old 05-19-2019, 6:41 PM
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That was actually a argument that was also stated on the handgun roster hearing ya there is around 700 guns to choose from but if one gun has 5 different gun variants than it counts as 5 guns on the roster although the only differences are either color, grips, or sights and it works for guns with multiple calibers on the same model the real question presented to the judges is how many models are available in California for sale not listing the differences in grips, colors, and sights or calibers that are available to the public...my response not really much to choose from
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Old 05-19-2019, 8:58 PM
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The one that got recalled.
Wrong, the one that replaced the one who got recalled. That damn RINO Schwarzenegger. See here.
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Old 05-19-2019, 9:20 PM
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Wrong, the one that replaced the one who got recalled. That damn RINO Schwarzenegger. See here.
Ahnold's insane, radical activist chief of staff Susan Kennedy pulled
strings too; he pushed the CA Republican Party leftward off a cliff.
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Old 05-19-2019, 9:26 PM
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The one that got recalled.
That POS Gray Davis?

He ran the dirtiest campaigns ever. EVER! I was young and shocked at his campaign ads.
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Old 05-20-2019, 8:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoystory View Post
Wrong, the one that replaced the one who got recalled. That damn RINO Schwarzenegger. See here.
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Originally Posted by M76 View Post
Ahnold's insane, radical activist chief of staff Susan Kennedy pulled
strings too; he pushed the CA Republican Party leftward off a cliff.
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Originally Posted by Sir Toast View Post
That POS Gray Davis?

He ran the dirtiest campaigns ever. EVER! I was young and shocked at his campaign ads.
It was a trick question.

Davis launched the Roster on August 27, 1999 by signing SB 15.

DOJ was tasked with certifying testing labs by 1/1/2000, and the Roster, came into effect on 1/1/2001. See CA PEN 32010(b), and CA PEN 32015(a).[/quote]

Microstamping is a “gatekeeper” to the Roster, meaning, the gun has to provide microstamping before it can be tested for Roster inclusion.

Arnold agreed to microstamping, and it entered the law on 1/1/2010, but Harris certified its existence on May 27, 2013.
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Last edited by Dvrjon; 05-20-2019 at 8:07 AM..
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Old 05-26-2019, 2:28 PM
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Originally Posted by DesertDave100 View Post
One would need to account for every single model made that is available in free America, and not in Commiefornia, to get a grasp on the true impact of the roster.

All I can say is I want one of the M&P EZ in .380. The roster has to go.
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