#81
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We are contrasting Roman Catholicism and Anglicanism. Which held to and confessed a person being Justified by Grace alone through Faith alone in Christ alone? Is this not the Gospel you believe as do I? Is this the Gospel of Rome? Does one attending the Roman church hear this Gospel? Are there Catholics that believe in a salvation by Grace alone through faith alone without Works? Yes, no doubt there are but they are the exception and not the rule and in conscience they should leave the church and attend another. Whatever the state of the Anglican church is now the point is that it is? was? a Gospel preaching church. Here is Article 11 & 12 of the Church of England. XI. Of the Justification of Man. We are accounted righteous before God, only for the merit of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ by Faith, and not for our own works or deservings. Wherefore, that we are justified by Faith only, is a most wholesome Doctrine, and very full of comfort, as more largely is expressed in the Homily of Justification. XII. Of Good Works. Albeit that Good Works, which are the fruits of Faith, and follow after Justification, cannot put away our sins, and endure the severity of God's judgment; yet are they pleasing and acceptable to God in Christ, and do spring out necessarily of a true and lively Faith insomuch that by them a lively Faith may be as evidently known as a tree discerned by the fruit If you were to read the Council of Trent on Justification you would find the anathema placed on one who believes the above. The Roman church has placed the anathema on the Gospel. Last edited by huskydog; 01-26-2016 at 8:30 AM.. |
#82
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I'm still interested in a response to this question war wagon Last edited by huskydog; 01-28-2016 at 7:36 AM.. |
#83
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Yes. The two were contemporaries. Luther referred to Calvin as the "Theologian". So, 50 years is not possible.
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#85
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Unless your church was Reformed I would think they would discuss it unless it would be to compare and contrast.
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#86
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I don't know a lot about your denomination but what I do it sounds like a good orthodox church. I attended The Church of God of Prophecy until last year (My leaving didn't have anything to do with Calvinism) and likewise never heard Election discussed. |
#87
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It's very common. I was at a garden variety Evangelical church for 5 years. I doubt the pastor ever heard of election much less could tell you what it meant.
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#88
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An interesting video to keep this thread alive. If you hate Calvinism don't watch it.
https://youtu.be/h3yZMlempDw |
#89
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Calvinism
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I think you're the only one who wants the keep this thread alive. (Insert disingenuous smiley here.)
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Sent from Free America |
#91
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God is good.
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Sent from Free America |
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Religion is one of those things and there are many disagreements and so forth. We all have things we think might be wrong other people do. I will say 100% I am not sure how any Christian could reconcile a vote for Obama. I know many will disagree, but that is my opinion and based on values I was raised by.
Anyway. There are various versions of this song, but this one looked cool. Christians should heed the words https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okyEALTeKnM |
#96
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ETA: Also I'm not Calvinist so my position may not be of any interest in the matter.
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#97
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I am. It's just not a hill I care to plant my flag on. It doesn't bother me that others don't adhere to it.
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#98
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Calvinism and Arminianism or something I intentionally do not talk about or even remotely bring up with the certain number of Christians I know. It almost seems like so many Christians want to convert Christian versus putting that time and energy into the lost. And the funny thing is much of the Jewish and Hebrew contacts is kind of been lost. Interesting when you actually listen to Romans being taught by a Messianic Jew, especially one who was trained as a rabbi. They seem to bring much of the Old Testament which was still being read, and which Paul was very much familiar with, into the New Testament. For example its nice reading Romans 9,10, and 11 and going back to Jeremiah 18.
In my own opinion I think much was lost in mankind's anti-semitism, even in the church. Divide and conquer, I pretty much think that's what satan was doing and has been doing all along. |
#100
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I went to a school called Calvin Christian in Escondido when I was a kid. Spent 5 years there, but was forced to leave because my parents got a divorce. Yes, I was no longer allowed to attend. Even still, Calvin Christian leaves me with fond memories, such as:
1) Being sick and telling my teacher that I wasn't feeling well. Her response was, "Oh, you're fine". I then puked all over her desk. 2) Being accused of kicking a girl on the bus. Bus driver and teacher yelling at me for a long time, then the girl walks by. Teacher demands I apologize to the girl, and she says, "That's not him". I've got more stories, but I'll leave you with those because those are my favorites. Had I been showed a little more love, and perhaps if they allowed me to keep going to school there, I think it really would have changed my life for the better. Instead I had a really hard time, grew up without a dad, and without going into details can tell you that I fell away from the Lord and was very much wandering in the desert. I wasn't a bad kid, and I didn't deserve to be thrown out like trash. It took me about 18 years to step back into a church again. "If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.…" |
#102
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Originally Posted by glilon View Post
I think RAMCLAP nailed it when he said this discussion wouldn't go well I think it's been very mild as there has been no real debate. I've debated the subject elsewhere not because I wanted to push my agenda, but to defend my faith against attackers. I know what I believe is not the popular choice but my choice is not based on going with the majority but what I understand as truth. If the thread dies, o well. |
#103
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Psalm 103 Mojave Lever Crew |
#104
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Thanks brother for the invitation, but I can't advance truth with those who are already in agreement with what I believe. In the past I've been willing to take abuse and hear the blasphemies and speak the truth in the face of opposition. If one listens out of a thousand my effort has not been in vain. If no one listens I have done what is required of me, after all it is God who determines the gain.
Last edited by huskydog; 02-16-2016 at 10:23 PM.. |
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So if free will choice is necessary for salvation, then God placed over half the Earth in places where they will never hear of God. And therefore have no way to be saved. I do not believe that, that is I do not believe a good God would do that.
So if predestination is how salvation operates, then anybody in any land has as good a chance of salvation or not. I do believe that. Salvation comes by Faith and Faith comes by hearing. Hearing what? The whole Bible? Not possible because every translation is different, verses in one translation or not in another. So how much hearing is necessary for saving Faith? Perhaps just one verse or half a verse. Such small fragments of the true Gospel are out there in every time and every place. Everyone will hear the Gospel. Some will believe it, some won't. If they won't it because they do not want to believe it. They tell themselves it is not sensible or logical. Actually they just do want to believe it because then they are required to live certain way. Being selfish they refuse to. And tell themselves it is because it is foolishness. No it is not foolish, but it requires living an unselfish life. And this they will not do. They can do it. But they will not. So the will does come into play, even in Calvinism and it's belief in a sovereign God who created everything and is responsible for everything he created.
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#108
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Acts 17:26-27 BTW the gospel is being spread all over the world. Quote:
Last edited by Just Dave; 05-01-2016 at 6:00 AM.. |
#109
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All the scriptures related to predestination actually deny that all are elected, or that everyone has an equal shot at salvation. There has been many babies for instance, in and out of the womb, that have died without ever being able to exercise their freewill toward salvation. They could not even understand the true religion much less assent to it. Perish they did. Were some of them predestined to salvation according to election? I think so. Bible translations for the most part, even the less than stellar versions, relate the same propositions as relates to the testimony of God about His nature and the Gospel. And it is not true, unless you have some info to the contrary, that bits and pieces of the OT or NT are out there everywhere at every time. Did the American Indians in say 300 AD have a bit of the OT or NT before they were evangelized beginning around the 16 th century? I must assume that when you say that believing one verse or a partial verse of scripture is sufficient for salvation is hyperbole. The Gospel, whether in the OT or NT, was made up of many propositions, that if they of old or us now deny we can't really be saved. That's not to deny that God did reveal the truth progressively, but we must say that the true religion always had a core of who God was, and that salvation was of His messiah and that it was by grace through faith alone. As for the place of the will in salvation, no Calvinist that I'm aware of would deny that man's will is involved in salvation. The issue has always been is there such a thing as "freewill", it's meaning and it's application. I think the bible never puts forth the idea that man's will is in anyway free from God, or that man's will is the cause of his salvation, or that man's will can thwart even the most minute detail of God's plan. Calvinists would generally say that the fallen will of man can never choose God, that God must first renew (regenerate) the will, so that this renewed man can then believe the Gospel, so that All of salvation from beginning to end is of grace alone, God receiving all the glory. Roman 9:16 "So then it is not of him that willeth,nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." Last edited by TomMcC; 05-01-2016 at 2:35 PM.. |
#110
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