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Concealed Carry Discussion General discussion regarding CCW/LTC in California

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  #41  
Old 07-15-2018, 10:11 PM
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Winchester ranger plus or minus a p
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  #42  
Old 07-16-2018, 10:09 AM
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Fed HST here. Thinking about trying some gold dots.
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  #43  
Old 07-16-2018, 9:42 PM
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Some places dont allow hollow points and neither do international treaties. Safer to stick with fmj than have to explain you were trying to cause more severe and untreatable injuries with hps.
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  #44  
Old 07-16-2018, 11:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by igs View Post
Some places dont allow hollow points and neither do international treaties. Safer to stick with fmj than have to explain you were trying to cause more severe and untreatable injuries with hps.


When you have to shoot in self defense, you want to use ammo that stops the threat; hollow points are designed for this. It won’t be safer if FMJ goes through the wall and takes out innocents than your intended target.
If you’re worrying about international treaties, you might as well give up your firearms in self defense.

Just my $.02


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  #45  
Old 07-17-2018, 7:51 AM
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Presumably the OP is referring to 9mm...It is not just how well the particular load tests out but how well it functions in your semi-auto firearm.
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  #46  
Old 07-17-2018, 6:11 PM
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From LoadedM333

Quote:
Originally Posted by igs View Post
Some places dont allow hollow points and neither do international treaties. Safer to stick with fmj than have to explain you were trying to cause more severe and untreatable injuries with hps.

Loaded: FMJ will penetrate walls, fences, car doors etc.; JHP or HP may but is less likely; One of our biggest responsibilities is to make every attempt to hit ONLY our assailant(s) and not an innocent person or persons. I carry Speer Gold Dot in all three of my carry weapons, 9mm, .40 and .45.
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  #47  
Old 07-17-2018, 6:44 PM
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Originally Posted by igs View Post
Some places dont allow hollow points and neither do international treaties. Safer to stick with fmj than have to explain you were trying to cause more severe and untreatable injuries with hps.
FUD

San Francisco has a specific prohibition on Black Talon, and other LE-Only ammo not available to the public with similar ballistics to Black Talon.
As far as explaining anything, that is your attorney's job, and JHP is the defacto standard in defensive ammunition.
It is not and has never been a problem.
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A just government will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just government. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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  #48  
Old 07-22-2018, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colorado Kid View Post
From LoadedM333



Quote:





Loaded: FMJ will penetrate walls, fences, car doors etc.; JHP or HP may but is less likely; One of our biggest responsibilities is to make every attempt to hit ONLY our assailant(s) and not an innocent person or persons. I carry Speer Gold Dot in all three of my carry weapons, 9mm, .40 and .45.

Absolutely agree that only hit the intended target, assailant(s); however, during life and death situation (defensive shooting) most of the time the attacks are surprised with stress, adrenaline, I doubt that if one can hit the target 100%.

A good example, LAPD SWAT team, when they are called in to shoot, they know or have description of their intended target, their hit rate is 85% or less. They practice twice a week to achieve this.

One might say yes I practice a lot but it is much different when shooting a paper target than the real assault.

I just think it is absurd to consider fmj because some international treaties or city ordinance, IMHO.

I use Winchester Ranger T, Federal HST, Speer Gold Dot but my EDC Glock 19 likes HST.



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  #49  
Old 07-22-2018, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffh View Post
Keep it simple, what name of the brand and type do you want any jury to hear if you end up in court? How about Critical Defense? Pretty much sums up your intent. Some of those other names just don't quite sound right to the uninformed. Same with any gunsmithing, how about Cajun Gun Works' Defensive Package? At the end of the day, try everything possible to avoid having to discharge your gun in the first place.
if god forbid, you end up using deadly force and then have to justify it in court. The brand name of your ammo is the least of your problems. You may have to articulate how and why you selected that ammo. issues like greater stopping power means less shots fired. that JHP if you hit your intended target are less likely to pass through and hit unintended targets ie innocent civilians, that if you miss your intended target a JHP is more likely to fragment when hitting an inanimate object rather than FHJ ricocheting keeping most of its energy and again hit innocent civilians.
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  #50  
Old 07-22-2018, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tumark2 View Post
if god forbid, you end up using deadly force and then have to justify it in court. The brand name of your ammo is the least of your problems. You may have to articulate how and why you selected that ammo. issues like greater stopping power means less shots fired. that JHP if you hit your intended target are less likely to pass through and hit unintended targets ie innocent civilians, that if you miss your intended target a JHP is more likely to fragment when hitting an inanimate object rather than FHJ ricocheting keeping most of its energy and again hit innocent civilians.
This is all fine, but it is your job only to articulate this to your attorney, and if he's worth a crap at defending self-defense incidents, he already knows this.
It is his job to articulate this to the court via carefully constructed questions that are mostly yes/no in nature.
The more "description" or "explanation" you do on the stand, the more likely the jury is to misinterpret.
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Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just government will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just government. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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  #51  
Old 07-25-2018, 10:22 PM
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I think it really comes down to what works well for you as what you practice with. I don't think there is any "bad" ammo, just use what you practice with. I'm assuming what you use is not illegal as some places ban use of certain ammo.
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  #52  
Old 07-26-2018, 9:57 AM
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Anyone try the Winchester Train & Defend?
I like the concept. train with the ammo you use to defend

I picked up a set, but just been to hot, or smokey to go to the range
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  #53  
Old 07-26-2018, 11:25 AM
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I've watched videos with enough gelatin shot to fill a swimming pool. For standard bullet construction I think you can't beat Federal HST's especially the +p versions in any caliber for the best chance of stopping the attack with a single shot. This is what you want, not only because it ensures your best chance of surviving the attack, but also because your self defense shooting is less likely to result in your attacker's death if you don't have to shoot him multiple times. Furthermore, if you can stop the assailant with a single shot, that eliminates the possibility that subsequent shots you may have to take to stop the attack will go astray and injure a bystander.

If you are willing to explore a more innovative bullet design, you owe it to yourself to check out the Xtreme Defense line from Lehigh Defense. These are solid copper projectiles that, for lack of a better description, look like Phillips screwdriver bits. The combination of barrier penetration, huge wound cavity and optimal penetration are just unbeatable, and without turning this into a physics lesson, I think there are good physics reasons for the superior performance. It is NOT just a gimmick. The difference between this round and its competitors is especially large in the case of .380. This one round makes a short barreled .380 a serious choice for self defense. These same projectiles are loaded, often to higher velocities and +p versions, by Underwood Ammo using low flash powder.

The only objection I can see is an unscrupulous prosecutor or plaintiff's attorney trying to fabricate a false narrative that your choice of such aggressive looking ammo shows some evil intent on your part. To those who think they can protect themselves from the unscrupulous prosecutor or attorney by picking the same ammo as local LEO's, I don't think you can win this issue. They will simply fabricate a different lie that the fact that you researched and chose what LEO's use shows you are a cop wannabe or vigilante. You cant stop the unscrupulous prosecutor from making up a lie about you, all you can do is influence which lie they tell. I choose not to let that drive my choice of how I defend my life. I'm choosing the best chance for my survival for all involved.
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  #54  
Old 07-26-2018, 2:12 PM
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The best ammo will depend it works with your gun.

I highly recommend watching Paul Harrell's videos comparing different ammo types.

You really need to test it for yourself.
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  #55  
Old 07-26-2018, 2:14 PM
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Just saw someone post the hollow points aren't likely to go through walls. That is completely wrong.

If you miss, your HP is easily going through a wall still.
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  #56  
Old 07-26-2018, 2:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
FUD

San Francisco has a specific prohibition on Black Talon, and other LE-Only ammo not available to the public with similar ballistics to Black Talon.
As far as explaining anything, that is your attorney's job, and JHP is the defacto standard in defensive ammunition.
It is not and has never been a problem.

I was under the assumption that HP ammo was blanket banned in SF County??

not that I would ever WILLINGLY visit SF or the Bay Area
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  #57  
Old 07-26-2018, 7:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mansysinatra View Post
Just saw someone post the hollow points aren't likely to go through walls. That is completely wrong.

If you miss, your HP is easily going through a wall still.
Yup.
When hitting drywall, most JHP "plug" with plaster and from there on act like FMJ.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just government will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just government. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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  #58  
Old 07-26-2018, 7:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by igs View Post
Some places dont allow hollow points and neither do international treaties. Safer to stick with fmj than have to explain you were trying to cause more severe and untreatable injuries with hps.
International treaties? Yeah I'll have to keep that in mind, I wouldn't want to piss off the Rhodesian government when I shoot someone that sticks me up. What a stupid post.
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  #59  
Old 07-26-2018, 11:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boo2112 View Post
Which might be helpful in case you ever have to defend yourself from a watermelon covered by flank steak.

Yes, it's better to only rely on the ballistics gel tests. It would be foolish to see utility in simulating basic human anatomy with a flesh and muscle and bone from animals.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyIrt7-kzjY">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyIrt7-kzjY" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="350">

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PPwHmQLm28">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PPwHmQLm28" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="350">
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  #60  
Old 07-27-2018, 6:55 AM
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Originally Posted by boo2112 View Post
No, it would be foolish to think you can draw any valid conclusions from a flawed "test" that doesn't even attempt to follow the scientific method.

The videos are simply entertainment.
Lol, after seeing him fire different ammo out of the same gun and compare velocity readings is definitely stupid. The manufacturer tells you it's velocity, so no need to measure it for yourself.

Good talk, Professor
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  #61  
Old 07-27-2018, 7:18 AM
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i carry 9mm and i use the heaviest (147gr) bullet i can find that cycles reliably
i currently carry winchester personal defense 147gr jacketed hollow point
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  #62  
Old 07-27-2018, 3:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boo2112 View Post
always use quotes to distract from your inability to accept evidence of bullet velocity varying by manufacturer, gun model, and barrel length
Agreed.

Good to end the discussion there.
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  #63  
Old 07-27-2018, 3:25 PM
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MY IA uses Winchester Ranger T, (probably the low bid) but if it's good enough for them...
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  #64  
Old 07-28-2018, 12:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoadedM333 View Post
Absolutely agree that only hit the intended target, assailant(s); however, during life and death situation (defensive shooting) most of the time the attacks are surprised with stress, adrenaline, I doubt that if one can hit the target 100%.

A good example, LAPD SWAT team, when they are called in to shoot, they know or have description of their intended target, their hit rate is 85% or less. They practice twice a week to achieve this.

One might say yes I practice a lot but it is much different when shooting a paper target than the real assault.

I just think it is absurd to consider fmj because some international treaties or city ordinance, IMHO.

I use Winchester Ranger T, Federal HST, Speer Gold Dot but my EDC Glock 19 likes HST.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
fwiw

https://youtu.be/PyIrt7-kzjY">https://youtu.be/PyIrt7-kzjY" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="350">

https://youtu.be/PyIrt7-kzjY

Last edited by mansysinatra; 07-28-2018 at 12:20 AM.. Reason: link not working
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  #65  
Old 07-28-2018, 9:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mansysinatra View Post
Comparing video ha, how about below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UP7p3fxgzE

Anyway, I'm using Federal HST now since I've shot all the T-series.
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  #66  
Old 08-02-2018, 6:25 PM
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Hornady
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