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California handguns Discuss your favorite California handgun technical and related questions here. |
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#202
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Noted. I did start this post in asking for advice on how would you have done it... Yeah, I guess, I, too, have to be open-minded... Cheers! Last edited by rodralig; 12-01-2016 at 7:14 PM.. |
#204
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Being PC or nice or being complacent or following the letter of the rule of pointing the unloaded slide-locked pistol down range to ingrain a particular habit are peripheral issues. |
#205
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Last edited by meno377; 12-01-2016 at 10:26 PM.. |
#206
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which brings up even another point, if he wasn't conscientious to point it down range at cease fire, how often is he flagging everyone while range is hot under the same observation of the same RSO? please be safe everyone and I appreciate the comments from the proponents of range safety
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I started out with nothing - and I still have most of it |
#208
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Personally, I feel safe going downrange because I'm assured that no one is allowed to approach the shooting bench to handle the guns. Even if the guns are loaded (i.e. RO failed to check), it won't go off by itself. Back to the OP, he didn't get muzzle swept by someone who was holding a gun. Extrapolating danger based on the guy not following direction to point it downrange doesn't apply. As Citadel pointed out, the situation was rendered safe because people weren't allowed to handle the guns. |
#209
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Hebrews 9:27 "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgement." One of the traditional methods of imposing statism or socialism on a people has been by way of medicine. It’s very easy to disguise a medical program as a humanitarian project. ~ Ronald Reagan |
#210
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That's my take as well. It was a rule violation and the start of a bad habit, but not an immediate danger. When he picks it up, it's still going to be open and clear. It would be good to tactfully and productively point out the issue but not worth throwing a tantrum over.
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#211
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The RSO made a mistake by not visually checking and assuming everyone complied. If he had, and muzzle would have been turned to face downrange, and rechecked for clearing, given the lack of shooter's knowledge.
As mentioned earlier, there is also a good chance that as the firearm was cleared, it was muzzling the line, given the ignorance or carelessness, poor habit, or a lackadaisical attitude shown by the shooter's action. As RSO, I would have politely asked the guy to walk through showing clear in a safe manner, to make sure he understood.
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Single fin mentality |
#212
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At a shooting event some friends and myself put on we had a guy argue with the appointed RSO who is a NRA qualified instructor etc. about how we wanted things done for safety and this guy was asked to step away from the line for a bit probably twice that I saw because he was being unsafe, he eventually got removed from the event. All because in his infinite knowledge of gun safety and 20 years in the military, he put a gouge through 2 tables(which he now owns and paid me for) because he took the mag out and laid the gun down with muzzle pointed across the line and the gun fired. Luckily nobody got hurt except for his feelings when he was put in his place and told to pack up.
I'm sure he didn't intend to do what ended up happening but it did. Since then he has taken some handgun classes and other things and we'll see how he does at a range at some point. I'm sure some of us have done some stupid things with guns and hopefully have learned from it. Would I have said something to the guy at the range absolutely but I would tell him to make the changes for the next ceasefire because going up to the bench while at a ceasefire is probably more dangerous or could get him thrown out for that. I wouldn't have made a huge deal trying to get him to do it right then but if he did it again I'd make a bigger deal and probably bring it up to the RSO'so attention. Cruise |
#213
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That guy's safety habit, on the other hand, is probably deficient though. OP was probably more in danger while the line was hot, ( because, he might have muzzled him through the divider), but not during the cease fire. That's why people are saying he could have told him tactfully to follow safety protocol (which OP correctly did), rather than the need to berate him during the cease fire (which OP correctly didn't ). |
#214
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#215
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1) The offender didn't really apologize because of how he justified the weapon is clear, unloaded, safe and calling the OP D***. 2)At the Range; Basic Safety and Range rules must be obeyed at all times and not excuse the offender's vioation by saying it is safer to leave it that way. The point here is where the gun is pointed not the shooters were already outside the Red line which the argument keeps going back to that makes it unsafe to touch. 3)The MYOB, NBG, Drama Queen mentality is alarming due to not getting the importance of consistency as opposed to complacency. Sure, we all make mistakes but it's how we handle the situation when corrected determines how mature and irresponsible people are judged.
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Hebrews 9:27 "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgement." One of the traditional methods of imposing statism or socialism on a people has been by way of medicine. It’s very easy to disguise a medical program as a humanitarian project. ~ Ronald Reagan |
#216
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Gun safety is all about training and habits, if a person has a habit of pointing a gun in a unsafe direction because its unloaded, one day it might be loaded and out of habit he will point it the wrong way.
There can be no second chances with a gun, I know, I made a mistake once 30 years ago and could easily have killed someone, luckily I didn't hit anyone. Its all about HABITS and training, you must get in the habit of keeping the muzzle downrange, loaded or not, period, no matter how obvious it is that the gun is not loaded, it must be downrange. I would have actually had a talk with the RSO's boss after the OP's incident if the RSO had not taken this seriously. |
#217
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I've been shooting for over 40 years, and in all that time I've had one AD which was not an ND. I take being safe seriously; I just don't see where berating the guy in this scenario is a positive way to deal with it.
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#218
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If there is one appropriate time to criticize, it's about safety in this instance. The patron claimed it was unloaded, but failed to acknowledge and/or accept what the OP was pointing out.
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Last edited by meno377; 12-02-2016 at 3:37 PM.. |
#219
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I often go to the Usery Pass range in Mesa. I would see guys do this all the time, and the RO would chew them out up one side and down the other.
One time the guy to my right was having failure to fire problems. Every time turning the gun sideways, looking at side of his pistol which was aiming at us. I asked him to keep it downrange, he apologized. Then did it several other times, I reminded him and then reported it to RO. The RO said " the next time he does that beat the sh&t out of him". I told the guy with the pistol problems what the RO told me. And he said I better put this pistol away and fix it at home. Bottom line is keep it pointed downrange or put it away. |
#220
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After 6 pages, looks like the bolded parts is the heart of the matter for irresponsible gun owners. The refusal to own their mistake then justified it with "it's safe, unloaded, slide is lock, no big deal, taking the rules too literal, myob, etc. I hope I don't shoot next to these kind of people at the range.
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Hebrews 9:27 "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgement." One of the traditional methods of imposing statism or socialism on a people has been by way of medicine. It’s very easy to disguise a medical program as a humanitarian project. ~ Ronald Reagan |
#221
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#222
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Assumptions...? For me being a JERK - could you tell me when did I become a jerk in my actions? I was actually holding myself against arguing with him... There was no point, from then on, it's with the RSO. Again, do read my original post... And for the record... Quote:
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Last edited by rodralig; 12-02-2016 at 5:33 PM.. |
#223
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1. His apology is irrelevant whether his sideways gun was dangerous during cease fire. 2. This is the crux of my argument. Where his pistol was pointing is irrelevant because the fact that people weren't allowed to handle the guns IS what made that cease fire safe. It's like going down range during cease fire to change targets. Why else can people go down range to change targets while dozens of guns are pointing at them? Because they trust that RO checked all the guns? They could've missed a few. 3. Nope. I don't recall anyone saying MYOB or what the guy did was right. I'm saying there was no need to tackle the guy and pin him down until the RO kicked him out or that OP should've dove into a broom closet to take cover from flying shrapnel lest the gun decide to fire off bullets by itself. |
#224
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Your OP said the guy you were interacting w/ said you were being a d*ck. I dunno, I wasn't there.
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#225
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1)That is the crux of the matter. If he's not willing to own up, how many times had he done that to other people at different times thinking it's okay because it's safe, unloaded and slide is locked? 2)Range rules determine where the safest direction is not you or him. That's why the ROs are the authorities there to maintain safety and order. If they are incompetent then find another range to shoot. 3)Go back and read few previous pages. The OP was merely correcting him and the douche got defensive because his sensitive manhood was called into question (in his swollen head) and called him d***.
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Hebrews 9:27 "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgement." One of the traditional methods of imposing statism or socialism on a people has been by way of medicine. It’s very easy to disguise a medical program as a humanitarian project. ~ Ronald Reagan |
#226
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Well, I can see from this post, not many people understand the basics of range safety: (1) the rules; (2) how the rules are established; (3) why the rules are established; (4) who establishes the rules; and, (5) who can change the rules. That's ok. Most people who work at the ranges in So. Cal. don't have a clue either.
The range rules are not silly guidelines - they are part of the range design - just like the walls, ceilings or backstops. Joe Blow range owner does not write the rules. The rules are established by professionals, safety experts and engineers. They are part of permitting process. Violating rules places the range's existence in jeopardy. That's why violations should be taken very seriously. The range rules amount to standing orders. Only the Chief RSO may change those orders. The Chief RSO has more training and experience than the remaining RSOs. Any changes should be communicated to the RSOs before their shift. The RSO's on the line must enforce the rules and any changes. This entire situation would have never happened had the RSO done his job. Unfortunately, a lot of ranges do not even seem to know the things I've outlined above. They have no Chief RSO or call someone who has no knowledge of what a chief RSO is supposed to do a chief RSO. The RSOs receive little or no training and have no idea what to do or how to do it. So, YOU should keep an eye on what's going on around you. YOU should be your own RSO. And rather than calling the guy who is pointing out safety violations a d!ck, safety nazi or whatever, you should thank him. The life he saves may be your dumb ***. |
#227
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Perhaps its you who doesnt understand this: the scenario presented is described as op noticing the pistol, after the line went cold, and the pistol was at slide lock. You keep going back in time to the RO at the time he placed it, bad habits, and "he probably does other stuff". Heres the point: AT THE TIME op noticed this, its too late to go back in time and call it to attention of RO before he does down range. AT THE TIME op noticed this, the safest thing is to not have anyone touch the weapon, because its a line change, and what makes line changes safe is nobody touches weapons. Even if the ro did a crap job, its still safer to leave a weapon alone than to touch it, thats the eddie eagle program in a nutshell, dont touch, tell an adult. Those are facts. This isnt me ignoring basic safety, its me acknowledging that despite the safety rules, right now there is a firearm with the action locked back on a bench that noone is touching, pointed to some degree to the side. That doesnt make me cavalier. How you handle it beyond that is personal taste. You seem overly focused on the guy not apologizing. Apologies dont erase safety violations. As long as the guy is told not to do it again, im ok with that. If he does it again, escalate. You keep harping on what else has he done, thats irrelevant and not really compelling. When you fight a speeding ticket, the judge doesnt pull your record and say "i see here that you ran a stop sign two years ago, therefore you probably were speeding. " Also, you have no idea how op presented this, and you are claiming the violator was butt hurt and his manhood was insulted. Thats a stretch. You dont know how this went. If op was worried about the direction of the pistol at the time he saw it, and it appears he was, thats not a valid criticism. Look at what youre writing six pages in, "what else does he do", etc. Leaving fhe pistol alone during this line change is not as dangerous as moving it. how someone reacts to someone telling them otherwise isnt necessarily because of insulted manhood. This thread now bores me, ive said my piece. I reserve the right to return shouod anyone claim, falsely, that i am being cavalier or dont care abojt safety.
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#228
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No one, NO ONE is arguing that the down range rule is optional or not needed. These rules arent as complicated as you ORs seem to think they are. Its not complicated at all. The discussion is as it was presented: There is a line change. The ro is down range. The rso probsbly did a crap job. The op notices something. The adults who do understand the rules perceive that AT THIS POINT, the safest thing is to leave the clearly locked back pistol alone, and either say something to the other shooter or the ro, but that AT THIS POINT, the pustol is not a hazard, and moving it presents a greater rish than leaving it. The op seems to think the direction the pistol is pointed presents some hazard. It doesnt. Putting it there, and recovering it, is the hazard. Then we have people who cant accept the scenario as presented, rules for a reason, ros are in charge. None of that changes the facts: its already a line change, the line is already cold. The safest course is not to touch the pistol during the line change. No one has disputed that. What we get is condescending statements that the other shooter is probably muzzling people at other times, and the undeniable fact that when he goes to recover the weapon, it wont be pointed down range. YEAH, thats why its not safe for him to move it now. Wait foe the line change, mention his violation to the ro and or the shooter, perhaps stay out of the lane while he recovers it, and move on. Nobody is arguing that the rules dont or shouldnt apply, or that safety isnt important. Nobody is being cavalier.
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#229
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Maybe there are some of us that are more comfortable with firearms than the OP. Gun toters who carry everyday and handle firearms, do so safely no matter which direction the muzzle is pointing because they are confident that it will not go off if the trigger is not pulled. Even gangsters who carry without a holster know that it requires the manipulation of the trigger to discharge the gun. It’s not about having a cavalier attitude about safety. It’s about having trust in yourself, your knowledge of your gun and the gun itself, that it will not go off unless you make it. A loaded or unloaded gun lying there is no more dangerous than a kitchen knife on the table. Sure you can cut yourself if you pick it up wrong, just like the gun can go off if you handle it wrong. Doesn’t matter which direction it is pointing. Just my opinion.
It seems to me that the OP and the other dude both wanted to have the last word. Not gonna happen if they both have alpha personalities. Again, just my opinion. |
#230
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I don't shoot with that guy any more. |
#231
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The attitude of the offender is the problem here which you seems to overlook and focus on cold line which I'm not disagreeing.
__________________
Hebrews 9:27 "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgement." One of the traditional methods of imposing statism or socialism on a people has been by way of medicine. It’s very easy to disguise a medical program as a humanitarian project. ~ Ronald Reagan |
#232
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The scenario has nothing to do with his attitude, and everything to do with his actions. You are overly concerned with his response as relayed by someone with a dog in the fight. Thats has nothing to do woth safety.
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#233
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Hebrews 9:27 "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgement." One of the traditional methods of imposing statism or socialism on a people has been by way of medicine. It’s very easy to disguise a medical program as a humanitarian project. ~ Ronald Reagan |
#234
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I don't know how attitude isn't relative in the OP's situation. Two things come to mind regarding this patron's attitude. Either he has an ego and he is basically ignoring the OP's request and doesn't accept what he did wrong OR he is completely clueless about gun safety. I believe that he has an ego simply because he called the OP a d**k. That type of an attitude has no business at a range regarding the safety of firearms.
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#235
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I had an extremely uncomfortable situation at the range on Hammer Lane in Stockton back in I think 1995. I can't remember the name of the place but some old guy about 5 lanes down from me says " hey have you seen one of these" and he is waving his gun all over the place showing off his laser. It actually traced right over my chest and I yelled "what the f are you doing" ? His reply of "hey it's not loaded" only made me madder so I packed up and never went back. Seems like someone either shot someone else or committed suicide there not too long after and the store was shut down.
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#236
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Maybe you already knew the information that I posted. Maybe you're a certified RSO. If so, my post wasn't meant for you. Before I became a RSO, I had no idea how the range safety rules came about and why they are as inflexible as they are. So, I figured I'd share. Been under a lot of stress lately. The wife says I'm babelling like an old man. Probably explains a lot. Peace. |
#237
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We do not touch firearms when folks are downrange. In this situation perhaps it would be best to step out of the line of the muzzle and let the RSO explain the issue.
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NRA Benefactor Member |
#238
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#239
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Oh wow, who knew?
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