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California handguns Discuss your favorite California handgun technical and related questions here. |
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#161
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Hebrews 9:27 "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgement." One of the traditional methods of imposing statism or socialism on a people has been by way of medicine. It’s very easy to disguise a medical program as a humanitarian project. ~ Ronald Reagan Last edited by Barang; 12-01-2016 at 10:51 AM.. |
#162
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The point is, when weapons have been checked, cleared by RO, and the line is monitored during cease fire, it's safe to go down range because the firearms are safe, not because they are pointed in a safe direction. Agreed? So if someone points a firearm in a different direction during a line break, but it's checked and monitored, it's not more dangerous to let it sit there, pointed into the next lane. Agreed? It's more dangerous because he's going to handle it after the break, and when he goes to handle it, it's not pointed down range. I get that.
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#164
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If the RO goes down the lanes, checks all firearms, then precedes to go down range while one firearm is pointed to another lane, what does that say about that RO? If they missed that firearm not being pointed downrange, what else have they missed?
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#165
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so the plain and simple difference is, while shooters are not allowed to handle their guns and the guns are directly observed cleared by RSO, then it's considered safe to proceed down range while muzzles are pointing in that direction.. during the other steps in the evolution, the RSO is not in direct observance of each gun while shooters are on the line therefore the guns must be left pointing down range when they're cleared and picked up from pointing down range when making ready or else other personnel are at greater risk of being muzzled by a loaded gun.. everyone clear on this now? ETA; and more to the point of the OP, if a gun was left pointing any other direction than down range, I immediately suspect at least one of the following;
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I started out with nothing - and I still have most of it Last edited by Killer Bee; 12-01-2016 at 11:12 AM.. Reason: add comments regarding OP |
#166
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#167
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#168
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I was a qualified military RSO/OIC for crew served weapons and small arms.. Camp Pendleton to be more precise.. I know damn good and well what it takes to run a safe range.. RUN and safe range, not just shoot at one.. do you have any idea what it takes to run 100-200 shooters, some of which may never have even fired a gun in their life, through a one day to one week long course with crew served machine guns?! you still seem to lack the understanding as to why the risk is lower to shooters with all muzzles pointing down range while range rules are followed than the risks to shooters with guns left with muzzles pointing in other directions.. to SPECIFICALLY reply to your previous post below,, again, in bold, YES is it more dangerous, and NO, I do not agree with you. I've made abundantly clear, if you still don't understand, that's ok, that's what we have range rules and qualified RSO's for.. all I ask of you and everyone, whether you understand the purpose of the rules or not, whether you agree with the rules or not, please follow them explicitly or go somewhere else.. Quote:
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I started out with nothing - and I still have most of it |
#169
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Technically he pointed it in that direction while he, and everyone else, was on the firing line. Or, technically HE pointed it in that direction. Or, when everyone comes back it will still be pointing at the other lane Or, when he manipulates it, he'll be picking it up in an unsafe direction Or, allowing him to do that just let's him get in that habit, and it's complacency that kills Take your pick. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
#170
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Edit, you know what? Why fight over this?
I thought it was an interesting thought exercise, you take it as an insult to your calling. I don't mean to disrespect your training, and wasn't, only the notion that it's over my head, I assure you, it isn't. Stay safe.
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Last edited by Citadelgrad87; 12-01-2016 at 11:51 AM.. |
#172
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This thread show just how diverse the gun community really is. Some people obey rules to the letter and take everything very literally others are more relaxed.
I might have trusted the guy a bit more and waited to see what he did after I asked him to turn his firearm back downrange but we could argue all day that if you take the rules for gun safety to literally you couldn't really enjoy them. You happen to be the only person with the view of what happened 1st hand but I would guess that you are in more danger driving to the range than being on the range with that guy. |
#173
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I think it is a big deal, but I would not say anything, people get real butt hurt at any little thing now so I try my best not to get involved in conflicts.
but OP is right that's wrong and everyone saying it isn't should because those are the rules of the range plain and simple |
#175
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I learned 2 rules at 7yo. A GUN is ALWAYS considered loaded and dangerous. NEVER point a gun at anything you do not want to kill or destroy.
NO F++KING EXCEPTIONS! I had to remind a patron at a gun counter (looking at a rifle) not to point the gun at me twice. I told him the third time I would rip it from his hands and beat him with it. He got my point. But at first he thought I was joking. I stared him down and he blinked first. |
#176
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You can defend this Basic Safety violation all day long and when it's all said and done, it is still a violation and complete disregard of Basic Safety and Range rules.
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Hebrews 9:27 "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgement." One of the traditional methods of imposing statism or socialism on a people has been by way of medicine. It’s very easy to disguise a medical program as a humanitarian project. ~ Ronald Reagan |
#177
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I think his point is that its FAR more dangerous to handle a firearm than it is to leave it alone, even if its not pointed down range. i dont think that can be denied.
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#178
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That. Once it was in that 'dangerous' state the best thing to do would be to tactfully point it out for next time. It was too late to fix it for that cease fire.
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#179
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yes
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#180
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I would like to assume people are trolling at this point. |
#181
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Im not troling, just having a discussion.
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#182
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I guess I don't find it particularly interesting as a thought experiment if you start the exercise after the dangerous thing has happened, and then explain why there wasn't a safety concern. |
#183
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Safety errors and issues arise. Its fine to use it as a learning lesson for next time, but THIS time, its safer to leave it as is.
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#184
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What to do? Pistol NOT pointing downrange!
Hhhhmmmm... It seems that there is a perception that I wanted the patron to touch the gun with the RSO already downrange. No, that wasn't the intention - as I've also mentioned earlier, once a ceasefire has been called, the range is cold, and everyone is away from the firing line, there should be NO APPROACHING the firing line!
My intent was for the patron to understand the fact that his pistol was pointing to my lane and that he acknowledge it, apologize for it and mention that he will address it once we are allowed back to the bench. Unfortunately, he went on responding with - it's OK... it's unloaded... the action is locked and open... it's safe, etc. etc. And when I raised it to the RSO, he said I was being a D#CK...! Something not mentioned in the original post - he was actually teaching his friend to shoot (there were TWO of them in the lane; albeit, during the ceasefire, his friend was out in the receptions' area). He seemed to be the more experienced one of the two (albeit, I can't say skillwise :-p )... _ Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro Last edited by rodralig; 12-01-2016 at 6:56 PM.. |
#185
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Now, if everybody was already outside the Red line and found out later that the offender's gun was turn to the left or right, then yeah! I'd agree and let the RO deal with it. Back to OP's situation; the offender made excuses and try to justify his stupidity and carelessness instead of correcting it (if not too late) and apologize for it. That's how matured and people with brain would handle that situation.
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Hebrews 9:27 "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgement." One of the traditional methods of imposing statism or socialism on a people has been by way of medicine. It’s very easy to disguise a medical program as a humanitarian project. ~ Ronald Reagan |
#186
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Most human disagreements are the result of poor communication skills. I'd have waited until the range was hot, then politely asked the guy to please keep his firearm pointed downrange in the future for MY peace of mind, and to set a good example for the newbies. Less likely to get into a hassle that way.
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#187
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Is the point to embarass the guy, or be safe? There are two ways to teach, the one where the student thinks youre an a hole isnt the one that usually sticks.
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#188
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What to do? Pistol NOT pointing downrange!
I guess we are NOW talking about political correctness and being sensitive to hurt feelings and ego...???
I was being polite - and still my mistake because I wasn't NICE enough? Or more SENSITIVE enough to what the patron may feel??? And that is why I was called a D#CK...? *seriously* How far are we willing to justify this? How far are we willing to compromise on this? I think I'm definitely perplexed in regards to how this community treats safety... _ Last edited by rodralig; 12-01-2016 at 5:34 PM.. |
#189
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Hebrews 9:27 "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgement." One of the traditional methods of imposing statism or socialism on a people has been by way of medicine. It’s very easy to disguise a medical program as a humanitarian project. ~ Ronald Reagan |
#190
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#192
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Wouldn't a simple "the RSO is a little strict and likes to see those always downrange" have been sufficient and a lot more tactful? Demanding an apology and a promise that it will never happen again ... maybe work on those people skills. |
#193
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#194
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#195
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At the point where op saw this, its a cold line, the action is open, and nobody is touching weapons. Lets rehash it agian....
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#196
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Exactly. The guy was apparently inexperienced and made a mistake that wasn't immediately dangerous. Let him know, nicely. Encourage him to continue the sport. Don't accuse him (even if true, it's not productive) and then demand an apology and a promise of a future free of infractions. Kindness is not weakness.
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#197
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#198
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That depends how they approach you.
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#199
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What to do? Pistol NOT pointing downrange!
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+1 on this! Quote:
Nope! My first time at that range, I was reloading on the rear bench (they allow that at FT3 but not in OC). Someone told me, "... don't reload here..." while pointing to the message/warning on the wall. You know what I did? I profusely apologized, immediately corrected my mistake, and still took my learning firearms seriously. I was in a range day in Prado. On that day, you could have your pistol holstered with the slide open and locked. While one assistant instructor was teaching, his back was to me (he was facing downrange) - for some reason, the slide lock somehow got released while in my holster. That instructor, upon hearing the sound, faced me and basically shouted, etc. etc. Did I feel offended? No, I apologized and mentioned that I'll be careful next time. Did that make me hate shooting? No! It made me more conscious of safety. Again - during a safety class, as mentioned in a previous post - I got reprimanded. Did I feel hurt? No! As I've said - there is no compromising SAFETY. My mistake, my apology, and I LEARN from it (we can never stop learning). I stick to my sentiments - too much PC and sensitivities... And this thread has somehow become a debate on "being nice" (which I was... but then, I digress). ... and "teaching techniques/psychology"... PS: Please read the original post - I approached him kindly, and he immediately went to the defensive with his justification. If he is unexperienced - then he should be more 'open-minded,' and more so, NOT teach wrong habits to anyone else! I just had to leave it to the RSO, and not get into an argument... He labels me a d#ck... I just let it go and left the range... Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Last edited by rodralig; 12-01-2016 at 6:55 PM.. |
#200
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"It's OK, It's unloaded" are last words far too often. I can understand a noob pointing a safety checked firearm the wrong way, and when pointed out correcting their mistake. What I can't understand is trying to justify that mistake as if you're the one overreacting.
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