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  #41  
Old 11-27-2016, 8:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodralig View Post
Nope - that wasn't the intent as moving back to the firing line while someone is out in the range is a safety violation.

All I wanted was for him to be conscious of how he lays down the pistol (during ceasefire, during a hot range, during reloading, etc.) on the bay which is NOT pointed in my lane.

Could it be a miscommunication issue then?


_


Could be. Moving back towards the firing line and handling a firearm while the RO was downrange would be a much more severe range rule violation than what he had done. I know I wouldn't have touched it while the RO was downrange.
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  #42  
Old 11-27-2016, 8:33 PM
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Originally Posted by StuckInTheP.R.O.Ca View Post
As long as he wasn't handling it in an unsafe manner I would have just MYOB. Slide was back and guns don't typically pull their own triggers. Me personally BFD.
This.. OP must feel very uncomfortable when he walks down range with 100 guns pointing at him during cease fire..
  #43  
Old 11-27-2016, 8:37 PM
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Default What to do? Pistol NOT pointing downrange!

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuckInTheP.R.O.Ca View Post
[/B]



Could be. Moving back towards the firing line and handling a firearm while the RO was downrange would be a much more severe range rule violation than what he had done. I know I wouldn't have touched it while the RO was downrange.


Agree. And I would also explain to the OP that I would change the muzzle as soon as the RO signaled that it was clear. It is just a common courtesy.

It happened to me a few times at the range and I just packed up and left the range. On my way out, I notified the RO.
  #44  
Old 11-27-2016, 9:06 PM
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Safety and commonn courtesy. How hard is it to just turn the gun in the safest direction rather than making excuses? Some people are just stubborn and jerk!
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  #45  
Old 11-27-2016, 9:16 PM
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When I have any issue or any thing that I don't like at the range. I just pack my stuff up and leave, before I leave the range I will swing by and tell the Range master the reason of my leaving.
Never have any discussion with anybody at the range, there is a dummy born every minute and there is an *** hole born every minute also.

Be all of the ranges rules : ALL the muzzle MUST point to down range regardless the gun load or not.

Last edited by newbie1234; 11-27-2016 at 9:23 PM..
  #46  
Old 11-27-2016, 9:19 PM
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I was at a LGS and there were a bunch of guns in the case pointed at me. I told the store manager but he didn't seem to care. I'll never shop there again.
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  #47  
Old 11-27-2016, 9:25 PM
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Originally Posted by jdben92883 View Post
I was at a LGS and there were a bunch of guns in the case pointed at me. I told the store manager but he didn't seem to care. I'll never shop there again.
^This. Anyone who doesn't leave such an unsafe situation must be a future Darwin award winner. Their slides arent even open. Soooo dangerous.
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  #48  
Old 11-27-2016, 9:56 PM
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well, I can't speak for all of the cutesy replies, but I can say this as a former RSO/OIC, range coach, marksmanship instructor, etc.;

follow the posted rules and RSO instructions or gtfo, period.. when we cease fire for target scoring/pasting, we clear the line..

shooters check and show clear, lay weapon on the deck, muzzle pointing down range, ejection port up, bolt locked to the rear, no magazine in the well..

about face, one step forward, march, parade rest while staff goes down range for whatever they need to do..

I realize civilian ranges have different processes but I'm sure muzzle discipline and no weapon handling rules are pretty dang close..

if a shooter can't follow a simple command to point their weapon in the same direction as everyone else, what other safety rule are they not following?

as a shooter, I'm not wasting any time trying to figure this guy out, I'm assuming a loaded gun is pointing in my direction..

yah, I'm happy to have words with anyone that wants to dispute the rules.. not shy there in the least..

if I have to have words with the RSO to get your attention, so be it..

you want to give me the stink eye and call me names on calguns, so be it..

you want to grow up and act like an adult while conducting yourself on a live range, so be it..
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  #49  
Old 11-27-2016, 10:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdben92883 View Post
I was at a LGS and there were a bunch of guns in the case pointed at me. I told the store manager but he didn't seem to care. I'll never shop there again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by StuckInTheP.R.O.Ca View Post
^This. Anyone who doesn't leave such an unsafe situation must be a future Darwin award winner. Their slides arent even open. Soooo dangerous.
LGS is not the same as range. If you notice, people are actively shooting at the range with live ammo not snap caps.
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  #50  
Old 11-27-2016, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Barang View Post
LGS is not the same as range. If you notice, people are actively shooting at the range with live ammo not snap caps.
It's still an unsafe practice. Guns are to be considered loaded at all times. No exceptions.
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  #51  
Old 11-27-2016, 10:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodralig View Post
I ask him, "... is that your gun? Could you please point the gun downrange?"

He replies with, "... it's OK. It's unloaded..."

I responded with "... excuse me?" while trying to keep the urge to tell him about the Safety Rules...

He continued, ".... as you can see, the action is open, and you can see it's unloaded..."

All I then said, "... fine with me, do you want me to check with the RSO...?"

He goes, "... the RSO saw the gun like it was before we walked downrange, he seemed fine with it..."

I just cut him, "... no, I'll just check with the RSO..."

After the ceasefire, RSO comes back, and I asked him about leaving guns while away from the firing line and told him about the patron to my right.
Your mistake was going to the patron. If you were truly concerned about your safety and the safety of others, you should have gone straight to the RO.
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Last edited by meno377; 11-27-2016 at 10:53 PM..
  #52  
Old 11-27-2016, 11:26 PM
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the story of my life when i go shooting. I hate it when I'm near dumb people and I have no problem telling them off if they are being unsafe. They get butt hurt, but who cares. My life is worth more than someones dumb mistake.
  #53  
Old 11-27-2016, 11:53 PM
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[QUOTE=rodralig;19230022]S
told the RSO I was kind of being a dick or something...

But then, what would you have done? I'd be a dick!
  #54  
Old 11-28-2016, 12:08 AM
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you were in the right...but its best to let it go sometimes.
  #55  
Old 11-28-2016, 5:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ktmguy View Post
Okay so you make your firearms safe then everyone steps back and instead of having his gun pointed down range toward the RO it is pointed down the firing line WHICH IS UNOCCUPIED. Due to the cease fire. So your gun is pointed at a person and his gun is not and you are mad because his empty gun with nobody near it is pointed in a direction that nobody is in.
But everything didn't just "beam" into position like that. In order for the gun to get like that it means the guy was at the firing line, while others were there too, and he was pointing his firearm at other people. Worst case, he may have performed the entire process of ejecting the magazine and clearing the chamber with the muzzle pointed at others on the firing line. At best it means he was pointing the gun at others on the firing line during at least some of his handling of it.

And for those talking about taking "all firearms are loaded" too literally, you're really missing the point of the rule. The best way I can sum up the point of the rule is that you're not ever supposed to say, or feel the urge to say, "it's okay, it's unloaded." So if something you're doing with an unloaded gun is making someone else uncomfortable, and that's all you have to say in response, then you should probably save it and stop doing the thing that's making them uncomfortable.
  #56  
Old 11-28-2016, 6:04 AM
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Default What to do? Pistol NOT pointing downrange!

Quote:
Originally Posted by meno377 View Post
Your mistake was going to the patron. If you were truly concerned about your safety and the safety of others, you should have gone straight to the RO.

I thought that by being courteous and considerate, while not being a 'snake,' would have been best. I was actually polite when I approached him; he went on the defensive with the response, "... it's okay; it's unloaded..." But I digress - people nowadays get really, for lack of a better word, butthurt at anything...


Quote:
Originally Posted by alexisjohnson View Post
you were in the right...but its best to let it go sometimes.

That is one problem here - "what is the criteria for this sometimes...?"

In spite of the risk of sounding pedantic, would the 4-Way Test be sufficient?

1. Is it the truth?
2. Is it fair to all concerned?
3. Will it build goodwill and better friendship?
4. Will it be beneficial to all concerned?

As mentioned earlier - judging from the responses on this thread, even the Safety Rules is open to much interpretation.

Oh, well... To be considerate of people who get butthurt at anything, I guess, just letting it go would be best... At least letting the RO know about it on my way out (am an annual member at that range).

Quote:
Originally Posted by peter95 View Post
the story of my life when i go shooting. I hate it when I'm near dumb people and I have no problem telling them off if they are being unsafe. They get butt hurt, but who cares. My life is worth more than someones dumb mistake.
Was going through the Yelp page of the range, and found this... Seemingly taken 5-months back.

Seriously...???





*SMH*





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro



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Last edited by rodralig; 11-28-2016 at 6:24 AM..
  #57  
Old 11-28-2016, 7:13 AM
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So the range I go to you empty the gun. Open the action, point the guns down range, and step back from the shooting line. After the RO checks all the gun, you walk forward the check or change your target. All those guns are pointing down range right at you when you go down range.
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  #58  
Old 11-28-2016, 7:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barang View Post
LGS is not the same as range.
So I guess we do have exceptions to the rule that has no exceptions, then.
  #59  
Old 11-28-2016, 7:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StuckInTheP.R.O.Ca View Post
It's still an unsafe practice. Guns are to be considered loaded at all times. No exceptions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cvigue View Post
So I guess we do have exceptions to the rule that has no exceptions, then.
You go to LGS with the "Expectation" of guns are on display and not meant to load up live ammo and shoot targets or whatever.
You go to Range with "Expectation" of shooting live rounds and you better be putting the Golden rules in practice or you have no business of being there. If you even have to argue and be stubborn about them, then that's the kind of gun owner you are.
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  #60  
Old 11-28-2016, 8:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Barang View Post
You go to LGS with the "Expectation" of guns are on display ....
And I have a reasonable expectation that a gun lying locked open on a bench is not going to discharge. See how that works?
  #61  
Old 11-28-2016, 8:18 AM
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My god, the foolish and ridiculous comments and lax attitude toward the most basic firearm handling rules here, make me extremely grateful for having the opportunity of shooting at a range where there is strict adherence to safe handling rules, zero tolerance to those who continue to ignore them, so that the chance of an accidental or negligent discharge injuring someone or worse, is greatly reduced.
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Old 11-28-2016, 8:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjmagee67 View Post
So the range I go to you empty the gun. Open the action, point the guns down range, and step back from the shooting line. After the RO checks all the gun, you walk forward the check or change your target. All those guns are pointing down range right at you when you go down range.
exactly right.. if you're comment was an attempt at sarcasm, then the basic principle of range safety must be lost on you..

while at the public range, RSO's or line coaches watch the line and the weapons lying there clear..

purpose of muzzle pointing down range is simple, the last time it was handled and the next time it's handled, it's always muzzle down range..

if you don't see the safety value of this, don't worry, those of us that run live ranges do..

and we are committed to maintaining everyone's safety, whether they realize it or not..
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  #63  
Old 11-28-2016, 8:41 AM
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op, you did the right thing. never assume a gun is unloaded just because someone else said it was..........safety is always first and pointing down range is POINTING DOWN RANGE.
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  #64  
Old 11-28-2016, 9:02 AM
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Originally Posted by cvigue View Post
And I have a reasonable expectation that a gun lying locked open on a bench is not going to discharge. See how that works?
Do us responsible gun owners a big favor by not taking a noob to the range with your irresponsible attitude towards safety. Your cavalier attitude is contributing more non-caring and common courtesy to fellow shooters.
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  #65  
Old 11-28-2016, 9:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjmagee67 View Post
So the range I go to you empty the gun. Open the action, point the guns down range, and step back from the shooting line. After the RO checks all the gun, you walk forward the check or change your target. All those guns are pointing down range right at you when you go down range.
Same here, but the RSO walks the line and inspect the guns for open action, no magazine/ammo in the gun and empty chambers. Most ranges have made chamber flags mandatory.

A gun that is pointed toward my stall with action open but ejector port down preventing verification of empty chamber should've caught the RSO's attention. The OP should've flagged the RSO's attention and pointed out the discrepancy.

I'm sure the offending party would say, "Dude you could've just informed me and it would've been fixed. Instead you're being a Dick for doing all that". That's societ for you. You can't make everyone happy unless you're 325 lbs, a simple stare and low growl will surely make someone straighten up.
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  #66  
Old 11-28-2016, 9:27 AM
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Originally Posted by otteray View Post
My god, the foolish and ridiculous comments and lax attitude toward the most basic firearm handling rules here, make me extremely grateful for having the opportunity of shooting at a range where there is strict adherence to safe handling rules, zero tolerance to those who continue to ignore them, so that the chance of an accidental or negligent discharge injuring someone or worse, is greatly reduced.
This!
  #67  
Old 11-28-2016, 9:55 AM
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Exclamation ridiculous comments and lax attitude toward the most basic firearm handling rules...

Quote:
Originally Posted by otteray View Post

My god, the foolish and ridiculous comments and lax attitude toward the most basic firearm handling rules here,

make me extremely grateful for having the opportunity of shooting at a range where there is strict adherence to safe handling rules,

zero tolerance to those who continue to ignore them,

so that the chance of an accidental or negligent discharge injuring someone or worse, is greatly reduced.
All guns are always loaded...

"Unloaded" guns have some how managed to kill many people over the years.

Many RO's are busy socializing and giving advice while on duty.

Sweeping others with a firearm isn't a joke or an acceptable faux pas.

If the RO's aren't watching out for range safety, go ahead a be a "d!ck" by saying what needs to be said.

Political correctness has never saved a life, while common sense continues to do so.
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Old 11-28-2016, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Barang View Post
Do us responsible gun owners a big favor by not taking a noob to the range with your irresponsible attitude towards safety. Your cavalier attitude is contributing more non-caring and common courtesy to fellow shooters.
When I shoot or help others I always do the right thing, place the gun left side down downrange, open, clear. It's the way it's done and it's most natural for a right handed shooter, which is what I am.

I also don't get my panties in a twist over something that's not dangerous.

The guy at the range last week I was going to say something but my look was enough for them to knock it off. The case the OP mentioned, I probably would not have said anything and if I did I wouldn't have been a dick about it.

Maybe take a note?
  #69  
Old 11-28-2016, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by cvigue View Post
I also don't get my panties in a twist over something that's not dangerous.
Nobody cares that the gun was laying on its side pointed at the stall next to it when no one was at either stall.

In order for it to have gotten that way, however, the person must have at least been holding it in that direction just before he put it down, and at that time the OP would have been standing in the direction the gun was pointed. That's a no-no, plain and simple. Hopefully he didn't perform the whole unload and clear process with the gun pointed in that direction.
  #70  
Old 11-28-2016, 11:37 AM
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Col Jeff Cooper's rule number two (of four):
Never point the gun at anything you are not willing to destroy.

I believe he knew more about firearms than any yahoo posting on this board ever will.
Having said that, I probably would have gone to the RO first.
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  #71  
Old 11-28-2016, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barang View Post
You go to LGS with the "Expectation" of guns are on display and not meant to load up live ammo and shoot targets or whatever.
You go to Range with "Expectation" of shooting live rounds and you better be putting the Golden rules in practice or you have no business of being there. If you even have to argue and be stubborn about them, then that's the kind of gun owner you are.
Firearm safety is now based on "expectations"?. So off of a hot range we can just "expect" that a firearm is unloaded. That sounds pretty irresponsible. I sure wouldnt want to be around someone who is so lax in firearm safety. So your OK if their pointed in a unsafe direction there but just not on the range. Still trying to figure out the logic of how a firearm laying on a table pointed at a person (RO)downrange is "safe" but when laying on a table pointed anywhere else in the same status it isnt.
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  #72  
Old 11-28-2016, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daisy'sDad View Post
Col Jeff Cooper's rule number two (of four):
Never point the gun at anything you are not willing to destroy.

I believe he knew more about firearms than any yahoo posting on this board ever will.
Having said that, I probably would have gone to the RO first.
In this case the weapons (except one) were all pointed down range at a RO while he was downrange. Was the OP trying to destroy the RO?

Also I think Jeff Coopers idea of pointing may different from most here. I think his interpretation would be a firearm actually being physically manipulated. Not laying on a table.
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  #73  
Old 11-28-2016, 11:52 AM
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The range that I frequent encourages members to attend the NRA RSO class. The general rule, besides having RSOs and a Rangemaster is, that everyone there should be looking out for the safety of everyone else first, and encouraged to politely but firmly let someone know when they are breaking or stretching cardinal rules.
Doesn't matter if it is perceived by an individual as not unsafe; rules is rules not to be ignored. The attitude of being more concerned about being seen as a dick is pretty childish.
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  #74  
Old 11-28-2016, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by rodralig View Post
Some patrons just do NOT want to be told by anyone else... *ugh*

Am wondering how any of you would have done if you were in my situation?

I was a the OC Indoor Range a few hours back. The RSO called for a ceasefire because he had to fix one of the targets.

We move back from the firing line and I see the patron right to me has his pistol pointing to my lane (not downrange).

I ask him, "... is that your gun? Could you please point the gun downrange?"

He replies with, "... it's OK. It's unloaded..."

I responded with "... excuse me?" while trying to keep the urge to tell him about the Safety Rules...

He continued, ".... as you can see, the action is open, and you can see it's unloaded..."

I really kept the urge in debating with him, because in actuality, even if the action were open, the gun was on it's right-side, hence, you can't actually see the ejection port and/or chamber!

All I then said, "... fine with me, do you want me to check with the RSO...?"

He goes, "... the RSO saw the gun like it was before we walked downrange, he seemed fine with it..."

I just cut him, "... no, I'll just check with the RSO..."

After the ceasefire, RSO comes back, and I asked him about leaving guns while away from the firing line and told him about the patron to my right.

So, patron moved the pistol correctly and told the RSO I was kind of being a dick or something... I just went "... What...?" I paused, "... okay, as long as the gun is now pointed in the right direction, I'm fine..."

I know I don't have much experience under my belt, but still, the Safety Rules are there, and should be abided by and understood by all shooters regardless of level.

*sorry for the rant*

But then, what would you have done?


_
I just DROS'd a new pistol today. Had to go through the safety check. Once finished I placed the pistol pointing left so it would not be pointing at the clerk and he told me to make sure it was pointed "downrange." And, no, there was no one to the left where it was pointed, just a computer.
  #75  
Old 11-28-2016, 11:59 AM
cvigue cvigue is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StuckInTheP.R.O.Ca View Post
Firearm safety is now based on "expectations"?. So off of a hot range we can just "expect" that a firearm is unloaded. That sounds pretty irresponsible.
Well there is that.



Quote:
Originally Posted by champu View Post
In order for it to have gotten that way, however, the person must have at least been holding it in that direction just before he put it down ...
Yeah, I wouldn't get too upset, although as I said I wouldn't do it that way myself. I'd probably just say something like "Too late to fix now but the RSO likes to see those aimed downrange port up" or something non-confrontational like that. Maybe warm up with a little convo first.

Let them take it from there.


Quote:
Originally Posted by champu View Post
Hopefully he didn't perform the whole unload and clear process with the gun pointed in that direction.
Now that I would get a little excited about but I doubt the final orientation really indicates that in any way.
  #76  
Old 11-28-2016, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Den60 View Post
I just DROS'd a new pistol today. Had to go through the safety check. Once finished I placed the pistol pointing left so it would not be pointing at the clerk and he told me to make sure it was pointed "downrange." And, no, there was no one to the left where it was pointed, just a computer.
I had a similar thing; 'downrange' was the stockroom and I'd just seen a couple people go back there, so I went left, where it was clear. I wonder if it's part of the safety check just to drill newbs?
  #77  
Old 11-28-2016, 12:11 PM
Win231 Win231 is offline
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Originally Posted by SVTNate View Post
I would report to the RSO, and if he did nothing, I would never return to that range.

I don't like having guns pointed at me. Someone who does it with an open action might do it with a closed action next time, maybe loaded, maybe when you're not looking.

Personally I have a zero tolerance policy for unsafe gun handling practices. Not because I'm a "dick", but because I enjoy being alive and only having holes in my body where God put them.
^^^^ Bingo. Winning post.

Some guys think it's manly to allow guns pointed at them.
  #78  
Old 11-28-2016, 12:24 PM
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I met a genuine dickhead at Angeles a few years ago. Boyfriend was showing Girlfriend where the safety was on his Beretta 9mm. So, while holding it, he turned the gun sideways (pointing at me). When he saw me move out of the way, he chuckled & said "It's OK, I haven't loaded it yet." I told the RO who had a talk with him. Had the RO done nothing about it, I'd have left & written to the owner.

When someone points a gun carelessly & excuses it away with phrases like
"It's OK; it's not loaded"
"It's Ok; the action is open"
"It's OK; I'm not touching the trigger
"It's OK; the safety's on"
They are morons who should never have access to firearms.
  #79  
Old 11-28-2016, 2:16 PM
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Barang Barang is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StuckInTheP.R.O.Ca View Post
Firearm safety is now based on "expectations"?. So off of a hot range we can just "expect" that a firearm is unloaded. That sounds pretty irresponsible. I sure wouldnt want to be around someone who is so lax in firearm safety. So your OK if their pointed in a unsafe direction there but just not on the range. Still trying to figure out the logic of how a firearm laying on a table pointed at a person (RO)downrange is "safe" but when laying on a table pointed anywhere else in the same status it isnt.
When you go visit your LGS and majority of firearms are pointed towards you, do you jump out of your skin?
When you go to the range and majority of firearms are pointed towards you, do you have the same feeling when at LGS? Think about that ..... and why are you so against somebody who's correcting the offender for proper safety, why is it so hard to just turn the gun in the safe direction, why resist a safe practice?
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  #80  
Old 11-28-2016, 2:26 PM
Oldtimer626 Oldtimer626 is offline
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I'm going the other way here.
OP you were TOO NICE to that moron. If it ever happens again (I hope not), YELL at that fool at the top of your lungs.
If anyone is going to put my life in danger, getting screamed at is the LEAST that is going to happen to them.

Anyways, the MYOB crowd sounds a lot like the "I CAN'T HANDLE CRITICISM" crowd of millennial babies. Ignore them and they will literally go away as they are incapable of confrontation without tears.
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