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  #41  
Old 09-18-2019, 8:21 AM
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Originally Posted by tuna quesadilla View Post
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Where in the developed Western world are handguns with manual safety in widespread use as a primary weapon? How common is it, among agencies that issue handguns as a primary weapon, for those handguns to have manual safeties?
Most SWAT I know of carry a SA weapon. STI has been selling their Staccato P like firecrackers to various SWAT teams.
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  #42  
Old 09-18-2019, 9:20 AM
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DA/SA is a thing of the past. Like manual gearboxes in cars.

To someone who enjoys the additional steps and mechanical connection it’s superior but in practice it’s not real or measurable, often slower, and adds a step which by definition is another thing to go wrong.

Does any of that make choosing a SA/DA wrong, nope, but neither does it make it superior just ‘cos DA/SA snobs like to think it...
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  #43  
Old 09-18-2019, 9:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Caller #10 View Post
DA/SA is a thing of the past. Like manual gearboxes in cars.

To someone who enjoys the additional steps and mechanical connection it’s superior but in practice it’s not real or measurable, often slower, and adds a step which by definition is another thing to go wrong.

Does any of that make choosing a SA/DA wrong, nope, but neither does it make it superior just ‘cos DA /SA snobs like to think it...
Why do you suppose that DA/SA pistols are taking over in the practical shooting scene? For example, USPSA Production class: Where the top shooters once used Glocks almost universally, the top ranks are now increasingly filled with CZ, Tanfoglio, et al. The USPSA actually publishes these statistics, so I’m not telling you hearsay—This is actually empirical evidence that I can cite for you if you’d like to see it. Since you asserted that DA/SA is “often slower” and has no measurable advantage over any other trigger system, to what do you attribute the massive uptick in its popularity among top competition shooters?
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  #44  
Old 09-18-2019, 10:59 AM
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I started out on DA revolvers, then went to 3rd gen smiths, then glocks. Just recently bought a Sig Sauer because it was super cheap used and looked like new. It’s a great rig, no complaints.
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  #45  
Old 09-18-2019, 11:07 AM
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I know of a bunch of ND's where DA/SA shooters either forgot to De cock or intentionally did not decock so they would be faster....
they shot themselves holstering or drawing....

Mechanics are just that- a physical trait....

I don't see the need for DA/SA
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  #46  
Old 09-18-2019, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by hermosabeach View Post
I know of a bunch of ND's where DA/SA shooters either forgot to De cock or intentionally did not decock so they would be faster....
they shot themselves holstering or drawing....

Mechanics are just that- a physical trait....

I don't see the need for DA/SA
Yup, heard about that at Front Sight recently. Some dude with a CZ75 shot himself under exactly those circumstances. Life is hard when you’re stupid.
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  #47  
Old 09-18-2019, 11:46 AM
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Short of the P7 someone included a photo of above, DA/SA is the safest bet for avoiding an 'ND' while reholstering or, when you're heart is going 180 bpm and you're shaking like a leaf.

Its funny how, over time, I came full circle on the DA/SA thing. Like our OP I questioned the reasoning for this. My first pistol was a 92F. I never got used to the DA trigger pull.

Many years later, and having done lots(!) of holster draw training with M1911's and later striker fired polymer framed pistols I came around to the inherently elegantly simple safety feature of DA/SA.

The trick is getting a DA/SA that works for you. Fits your hand, doesn't take so much extra pull weight that your grip shifts etc.. Over time, I have really come around to DA/SA for carry weapons. Unless you own a P7, which is simply a superior quality cary weapon.
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  #48  
Old 09-18-2019, 1:45 PM
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More convenient to practice dry firing with a DA since you don't have to rack the slide after every trigger pull.
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  #49  
Old 09-18-2019, 5:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuna quesadilla View Post
Why do you suppose that DA/SA pistols are taking over in the practical shooting scene? For example, USPSA Production class: Where the top shooters once used Glocks almost universally, the top ranks are now increasingly filled with CZ, Tanfoglio, et al.

... Since you asserted that DA/SA is “often slower” and has no measurable advantage over any other trigger system, to what do you attribute the massive uptick in its popularity among top competition shooters?
Weight is one thing, the metal DA/SA guns are heavier and hence less recoil. Also, the DA pull is 3.5 lbs and SA is 2lbs on most of those guns (some even less) after they are worked on so disadvantage of an 8 or 10 lbs DA trigger pull is gone.
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  #50  
Old 09-18-2019, 6:13 PM
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I think up to 32 rounds are legal in a USPSA stage.

So TDA is popular in USPSA Production because you have one 5# trigger pull and then 31 trigger presses with a very crisp 2# trigger pull in a 42 ounce gun.
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  #51  
Old 09-18-2019, 6:32 PM
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To all the Striker fire babies crying about the heavy DA/SA metal guns. Stop eating soy, lift some weights, and man up. Learn how to smooth press through a DA pull to the rear.
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  #52  
Old 09-18-2019, 8:39 PM
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Originally Posted by rodralig View Post
So, pardon me for this question (don't have many years under my belt - still learning) - what is the whole point of DA/SA?

I would see the perspective that the DA helps to ensure that the first shot is a conscious decision to fire. But if so, what the heck are those DA/SA pistols that allow one to fire from SA with the safety? All I see here is "versatility."

That, too, is with a DA/SA - unless one was trained, they'd probably be pulling either the first shot or the second shot.

I would understand a DAO or an SAO pistol; but to have TWO different trigger pulls? (this is one reason I got rid of my Beretta PX4 Storm 9 my 2nd year in firearms - always had to start from DA)

Whatever happend to KISS? Keep It Simple, Shooter!

Thanks in advance for the enlightenment...
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  #53  
Old 09-18-2019, 9:16 PM
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Really good little article from the past:

https://www.chuckhawks.com/trigger_options.htm
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  #54  
Old 09-18-2019, 9:49 PM
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Originally Posted by igs View Post
You sound like those people that don't know how to drive stick shift then complain it's too complicated.
What?!? I don't know how to drive stick???

I guess I must be doing something wrong - because the cars I drove were an FD2, a LA-NA2 and a Spec C GRB; with some playtime with an FJ1600... Oh, yeah, my current daily driver is a 10th-gen Si...

Oh, teach me master... I want to learn double clutch heel-n-toe, brake modulation, left foot braking, weight transfer to maximize cornering grip, proper apex for different corners, etc.



Quote:
Originally Posted by meno377 View Post
Really good little article from the past:

https://www.chuckhawks.com/trigger_options.htm
Thanks!!! Another article to file for reference. Good reading...


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  #55  
Old 09-18-2019, 11:02 PM
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Originally Posted by tanks View Post
Weight is one thing, the metal DA/SA guns are heavier and hence less recoil. Also, the DA pull is 3.5 lbs and SA is 2lbs on most of those guns (some even less) after they are worked on so disadvantage of an 8 or 10 lbs DA trigger pull is gone.
I agree. Worth adding that manufacturers are starting to pick up on the "weight can sometimes be a GOOD thing" trend for striker fired guns, too.

The Sig P320 XFive Legion is striker-fired and weighs 43.5 oz.
The Walther Q5 Match is striker-fired and weighs 41.6 oz.

For contrast, a typical full sized Glock weighs in the low 20 ounces, and a full steel 1911 weighs around 40 ounces.

Sadly, the Sig and Walther are off roster in CA.
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  #56  
Old 09-18-2019, 11:54 PM
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The vast majority of people are going to be better off with a striker fired pistol. In the handful of pistol classes I have taken the students with DA/SA pistols were significantly slower on drills and more likely to throw their first shot (obviously anecdotal but I think many will agree this is generally the case). Those with the time and will power to master DA/SA most certainly can.

I can shoot a DA/SA (and a DA revolver for that matter) as well as I can a glock if I take my time. Once the shot timer comes into play it's laughable how much slower I am to get a DA shot off.
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  #57  
Old 09-19-2019, 8:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuna quesadilla View Post
Why do you suppose that DA/SA pistols are taking over in the practical shooting scene? For example, USPSA Production class: Where the top shooters once used Glocks almost universally, the top ranks are now increasingly filled with CZ, Tanfoglio, et al. The USPSA actually publishes these statistics, so I’m not telling you hearsay—This is actually empirical evidence that I can cite for you if you’d like to see it. Since you asserted that DA/SA is “often slower” and has no measurable advantage over any other trigger system, to what do you attribute the massive uptick in its popularity among top competition shooters?
Those competition CZ's and Tanfoglio's aren't DA/SA. They're all SAO.
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  #58  
Old 09-19-2019, 9:41 AM
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Originally Posted by k1dude View Post
Those competition CZ's and Tanfoglio's aren't DA/SA. They're all SAO.
The CZ Shadow 2s are DA/SA and should start in DA in the Production division.

The DA is fairly long, btw.

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  #59  
Old 09-19-2019, 9:43 AM
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  #60  
Old 09-19-2019, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by rodralig View Post
The CZ Shadow 2s are DA/SA and should start in DA in the Production division.

The DA is fairly long, btw.

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I think every single one I've ever seen in competition has been converted to SAO. Production allows aftermarket trigger mods as of May last year. That's when you saw the explosion of CZ's in production.
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  #61  
Old 09-19-2019, 11:48 AM
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If you climb things while using a firearm (ladders, boatd, etc) DA/SA double strike can be helpful
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Old 09-19-2019, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by k1dude View Post
I think every single one I've ever seen in competition has been converted to SAO. Production allows aftermarket trigger mods as of May last year. That's when you saw the explosion of CZ's in production.
What competition?
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  #63  
Old 09-19-2019, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by k1dude View Post
Those competition CZ's and Tanfoglio's aren't DA/SA. They're all SAO.
When did Production start allowing SAO? As far as I know and last time I checked (which was pretty recently), SAO is expressly forbidden in Production.
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Old 09-19-2019, 12:15 PM
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I think every single one I've ever seen in competition has been converted to SAO. Production allows aftermarket trigger mods as of May last year. That's when you saw the explosion of CZ's in production.
Nooo! Allowing trigger mods doesn’t mean you can change the entire operating system of the trigger. I just checked the Production appendix of the USPSA rule book for confirmation:

“Only Double Action, Double Action/Single Action, and Safe Action/Striker Fired handguns are allowed, and must be on the approved list.”

There is NO legal way to shoot SAO in USPSA Production. Anybody who’s doing so is probably at a low level match where the rules aren’t really enforced (and where the USPSA certainly won’t be collecting data on what make/model of gun they’re using).
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  #65  
Old 09-19-2019, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by elekt View Post
The vast majority of people are going to be better off with a striker fired pistol. In the handful of pistol classes I have taken the students with DA/SA pistols were significantly slower on drills and more likely to throw their first shot (obviously anecdotal but I think many will agree this is generally the case). Those with the time and will power to master DA/SA most certainly can.
I have to disagree with this. It is all about training and reps.

Quote:
I think every single one I've ever seen in competition has been converted to SAO. Production allows aftermarket trigger mods as of May last year. That's when you saw the explosion of CZ's in production.
Who cares about competition. Competition, simply is not the real world. Re-reading our OP's post here, I'm assuming we're talking about CCW carrying & self defense, not competition.

Last edited by sfarchitect; 09-19-2019 at 12:31 PM..
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  #66  
Old 09-19-2019, 12:37 PM
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Who cares about competition. Competition, simply is not the real world. OP's post talked about CCW carrying & self defense, not competition.
I could not disagree more. Since the 1970s, competition has been helping to shape the equipment of “real” gunfighting. It certainly doesn’t dictate rules or tactics, but it is NOT irrelevant as you imply it is.

Just one of many many examples: Where did we first see people crazy enough to put red dot sights on their pistols? Competition, for over a decade. What technology is finally starting to trickle down to tactical LE/Mil pistols? Red dot sights. Hmm...

Here’s another example: What kind of setup have we seen on 3-gun ARs for the past decade+? LPVOs, float tubes, offset backup sights, mid length gas. What are we starting to see in the hands of the cutting edge door-kickers and name takers? LPVOs, float tubes, offset backup sights, mid length gas. Hmmmmm...

Should we look to competition to learn real-world tactics? No, probably not. Should we look to competition to say “Hey, that guy is consistently winning his division when he sets up his rifle that way; maybe we can test that out in the real world too.”? ABSOLUTELY!

So, in the context of this thread, talking about trends in DA/SA pistols vs striker fired pistols in competition is completely valid.
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  #67  
Old 09-19-2019, 6:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuna quesadilla View Post
Nooo! Allowing trigger mods doesn’t mean you can change the entire operating system of the trigger. I just checked the Production appendix of the USPSA rule book for confirmation:

“Only Double Action, Double Action/Single Action, and Safe Action/Striker Fired handguns are allowed, and must be on the approved list.”

There is NO legal way to shoot SAO in USPSA Production. Anybody who’s doing so is probably at a low level match where the rules aren’t really enforced (and where the USPSA certainly won’t be collecting data on what make/model of gun they’re using).
It's possible they were shooting in Limited, but I don't think so because none had magwells.

It's more likely the small match theory where no one was checking equipment. I shoot striker fired guns in Production, so I don't pay much attention to what hammer fired people are doing to their guns - other than noticing they were SAO.

But, I noticed in the CZ Production numbers put out by USPSA, that virtually all of the CZ's in Production come from the top custom shops. So they're modded to the greatest extent allowed by the best CZ smiths out there.
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  #68  
Old 09-19-2019, 7:56 PM
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...
It's more likely the small match theory where no one was checking equipment. I shoot striker fired guns in Production, so I don't pay much attention to what hammer fired people are doing to their guns - other than noticing they were SAO.
...
If I see someone even in a small match shooting a gun SAO and they are listed as Production I will kick them to Open (per rules) as it is unfair to others not to mention against the rules. Ditto for holster and mag pouch placement.

While there is flexibility in stage design for level 1 matches the equipment rules are standard.

However, if you are shooting IDPA they might be shooting ESP which allows SAO instead of SSP which does not.
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