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  #1  
Old 02-18-2011, 8:54 PM
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Default PPT transfer fee $60.00 is legal.....

Catchy title huh!.
I would like to hear from FFLs regarding the below situation I am currently dealing with. Does anyone have a problem with what I am doing. I will not post the name of the store involved at this time.

I went to a FFL in San Jose for a PPT on a handgun last week. When all was said and done I was given a bill for $60.00
$10.00 Dealer fee
$25.00 DROS fee
$25.00 Handgun safety demonstration fee

I stated that the maximum charge for a PPT is $35.00
I was informed that the HSD fee was legal and they always charge for it.
I thought maybe something had changed recently regarding handgun transfers. I have not purchased a handgun in many years so I thought maybe this was a legit fee.
I said I would pay when I picked up the gun but was told payment was expected now. I paid the fee then went home and did some research.


Below is information directly from the CADOJ website:

Firearms dealers are required to process private party transfers upon request. Firearms dealers may charge a fee not to exceed $10 per firearm for conducting a private party transfer. Example:

1. For a private party transfer involving one or more handguns, the total allowable fees, including the DROS, safety, and dealer transfer fees, are not to exceed $35.00 for the first handgun and $31.00 for each additional handgun involved in the same transaction.

I made a phone call to the CADOJ Firearms Division and spoke with two different people. I will give their first names: Dana and Mike.
Both said the charge was not legal and to fax them a copy of my receipt.

I did not want to name the store until first trying to resolve this myself with the owner.
I made two phone calls back to the store where I DROSd the handgun and spoke with a manager on one occasion and the owner on the other. Both said the fees were legal. I told both the manager and the owner about my conversations with the CADOJ personnel.

Because the store owner is standing his ground I am going to fax a copy of my store receipt to the CADOJ and let them handle this.
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  #2  
Old 02-18-2011, 8:55 PM
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Did you have a handgun safety card already?

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/hscfaqs.php#a4

Quote:
How much does the Handgun Safety Certificate (HSC) cost?

The fee for taking the Handgun Safety Certificate Test and obtaining a Handgun Safety Certificate (HSC) is twenty five dollars ($25). The $25 fee entitles you to take the test twice if necessary.
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  #3  
Old 02-18-2011, 9:18 PM
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The FFL is an idiot. Now, instead of one and perhaps two repeat cutomers, he has a DOJ investigation. DOH!!

I rarely do PPT's but each one I do has brought either the seller or the buyer back for a purchase. Why nickel and dime someone because the PPT fee law blows? Suck it up and conduct business.
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Old 02-18-2011, 9:35 PM
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If you don't have an HSC card they need to issue you one and it costs $25. If you have one and they're charging you for the Safety demonstration(which it sounds like they are) where you load and unload a handgun using snap caps they are wrong and incorrect. They are breaking the law and should be outed. I would like to know who to avoid for ppt's.
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  #5  
Old 02-18-2011, 9:55 PM
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Default HSC

Yes, I have a HSC. I bought it last year at the same store. I had intended to purchase a couple of bricks of .22lr while I was in the store. I also received a case of wine as a gift the week prior and I was going to drop off a bottle when I picked up the handgun. Not too likely that I will do that now... Bummer of a situation.
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Old 02-18-2011, 10:36 PM
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I agree, that $25 "demonstration fee" is bogus since you already had a HSC. Seems to me like they violated the law that says $35 is the maximum allowed fee for PPT
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  #7  
Old 02-19-2011, 1:42 AM
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Some shops just don't get it. They will try anything to add charges to PPTs.

The handgun safety card (HSC) charge is allowed for in CA PC 12082...but any other fee when doing a PPT is specifically forbidden.
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  #8  
Old 02-19-2011, 7:36 AM
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If it wasn't a PPT, they could charge a $25 HSC Demonstration Fee. Since it is a PPT, the fee is capped at $35.

Dealers need to learn.
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  #9  
Old 02-19-2011, 7:50 AM
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Get a CCW and you wouldn't have to do the safety demonstration or have an HSC.
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  #10  
Old 02-19-2011, 8:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fjold View Post
Get a CCW and you wouldn't have to do the safety demonstration or have an HSC.
I've got a CCW and the last two pistols I purchased, at two different shops, they had me do the safe handling demonstration.

I knew that I didn't have to do it, and they certainly should have known as well, but I did it anyway.

I'm at the age now, where I really don't feel the need to correct people.(unless it is going to cost me money)

And, come on, how difficult is it to perform anyway?

There was no charge
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  #11  
Old 02-19-2011, 8:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boarding-Team-Leader View Post
Yes, I have a HSC. I bought it last year at the same store. I had intended to purchase a couple of bricks of .22lr while I was in the store. I also received a case of wine as a gift the week prior and I was going to drop off a bottle when I picked up the handgun. Not too likely that I will do that now... Bummer of a situation.
The FFL in question here did you WRONG; they are doing all other FFL's
wrong if they continue this practice, and consequently they are doing
themselves wrong once the word gets out... unless they correct the error of
their ways.

Charging 25$ for a handgun safety demo... thehaletheythink...!
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  #12  
Old 02-19-2011, 8:25 AM
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OK, what about a transfer dealer at Gun shows?

I purchased a rifle at the Ontario Crossroads show a couple of weeks ago, the dealer the vendor wanted to use charge an additional $15 handing fee and tax above the $35 PPT fee (total fee was $50.52). No tax was charged for the rifle.

I have seen this more and more with transfer dealers at GS's.

Is the handing fee legit?
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  #13  
Old 02-19-2011, 8:35 AM
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Having a ccw exempts me from a safe handling demo?I thought it was just for an hsc?
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  #14  
Old 02-19-2011, 8:39 AM
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Originally Posted by painkiller View Post
Having a ccw exempts me from a safe handling demo?I thought it was just for an hsc?
No, if you are exempt from HSC, then you are exempt from all of HSC including the demonstration. Why a dealer would want to waste their time and have one more piece of paper to fill out incorrectly and get busted in an audit for is beyond me. However, I have personally heard of dealers who state, "If the people have to do it, then everyone has to do it."

SCREW THAT! Anyone exempt from HSC come buy guns from me. I love exempt people because you cause me less paperwork!
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  #15  
Old 02-19-2011, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by parcours View Post
OK, what about a transfer dealer at Gun shows?

I purchased a rifle at the Ontario Crossroads show a couple of weeks ago, the dealer the vendor wanted to use charge an additional $15 handing fee and tax above the $35 PPT fee (total fee was $50.52). No tax was charged for the rifle.

I have seen this more and more with transfer dealers at GS's.

Is the handing fee legit?
If it is a PPT, then the total fees that is be charged is $35 PERIOD. So, the handling fee is not legit. If they don't want to do the PPT at a gun show, then they shouldn't do it an they shouldn't violate the law if they decide to do it.
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  #16  
Old 02-19-2011, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms View Post
No, if you are exempt from HSC, then you are exempt from all of HSC including the demonstration. Why a dealer would want to waste their time and have one more piece of paper to fill out incorrectly and get busted in an audit for is beyond me. However, I have personally heard of dealers who state, "If the people have to do it, then everyone has to do it."

SCREW THAT! Anyone exempt from HSC come buy guns from me. I love exempt people because you cause me less paperwork!
I love showing off my gun handling skills by loading and unloading one round.

Makes me feel like a real gunslinger.
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  #17  
Old 02-19-2011, 5:27 PM
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I think it's lame that every time I get a C&R handgun I don't have to do a HSC demo since I have an 03 and a COE but if I buy a modern handgun then I do have to....
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Old 02-19-2011, 7:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdouglas1980 View Post
I think it's lame that every time I get a C&R handgun I don't have to do a HSC demo since I have an 03 and a COE but if I buy a modern handgun then I do have to....
Ummm...C&R + COE = HSC exemption

If you are exempt from HSC, you are also exempt from safe handling demonstration.

Whoever is making you do the safe handling demo is in error.
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  #19  
Old 02-19-2011, 7:07 PM
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Default Fax sent

I sent the copy of the receipt to the CADOJs office. I was really hoping I would be able to educate the store owner and avoid any other DOJ involvement. Oh well, I tried.

One of the statements that the store owner made bothers me and was pretty dramatic "I am sorry you feel you need to try to put me out of business by only paying $10.00 for the transfer" Another thing he stated was "The DOJ can not tell me how much I can charge for conducting business. I have spoken with my lawyers and with the DOJ staff when they came to my store and they said the HSD charge was legal" These may not be his exact words, but they are as close to exact as I can recollect.

I will place a follow up call with Dana at the CADOJs Firearms Office sometime on Tuesday.

Stay tuned for further developments...
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Old 02-19-2011, 7:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boarding-Team-Leader View Post
I sent the copy of the receipt to the CADOJs office. I was really hoping I would be able to educate the store owner and avoid any other DOJ involvement. Oh well, I tried.

One of the statements that the store owner made bothers me and was pretty dramatic "I am sorry you feel you need to try to put me out of business by only paying $10.00 for the transfer" Another thing he stated was "The DOJ can not tell me how much I can charge for conducting business. I have spoken with my lawyers and with the DOJ staff when they came to my store and they said the HSD charge was legal" These may not be his exact words, but they are as close to exact as I can recollect.

I will place a follow up call with Dana at the CADOJs Firearms Office sometime on Tuesday.

Stay tuned for further developments...
Don't worry, he'll be talking to his lawyers again.
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Old 02-19-2011, 7:54 PM
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I recently called a store in socal for directions to do a PPT and they gave me the directions and stated it would be "$68 dollars. so I get there and the guy starts complaining about how much he hates doing PPTs. He did mention the cost was $35. It seems they try and discourage people calling in for PPTs as much as possible.
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Old 02-19-2011, 8:10 PM
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Originally Posted by xbimmers View Post
I recently called a store in socal for directions to do a PPT and they gave me the directions and stated it would be "$68 dollars. so I get there and the guy starts complaining about how much he hates doing PPTs. He did mention the cost was $35. It seems they try and discourage people calling in for PPTs as much as possible.
Yes...a lot of shops just don't want to do them...period. Name me any other industry where the government mandates the company lose money on a service? Does the state reduce the DROS fee for PPTs? NO. Yet they make it a crime for me to try and just break even on a service. So it's not surprising there is no love for the PPT. As far as I'm concerned, they should just maybe have to show up at an FFL to get an instant background check, and be on their merry way...but this state sucks like that.
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  #23  
Old 02-19-2011, 8:11 PM
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Wasn't this just discussed last month? Wonder if it's the same dealer?
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=379631
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Old 02-19-2011, 9:55 PM
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Is it really wise to cause trouble while the gun you are transferring is in their possession? It might get accidentally "dropped" while in storage...
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Old 02-19-2011, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by kantstudien View Post
Is it really wise to cause trouble while the gun you are transferring is in their possession? It might get accidentally "dropped" while in storage...
so, what you are saying is that you would take it in the pooper with sand in the vaseline?
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Old 02-19-2011, 11:43 PM
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Originally Posted by TRICKSTER View Post
Wasn't this just discussed last month? Wonder if it's the same dealer?
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=379631
I wish I would have read this last month! Same store. I sent a P.M. to the OP of the thread above.
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Old 02-20-2011, 12:42 AM
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I do most of my PPT's at Rifle Gear, and I know its a hassle but they are very quick, and also good sports about it. If I buy new guns or parts I always try to buy from them first because of how they treat me during the PPT process.

On the contrary, I have been to Turners twice in the last three years because they go out of their way to make the process as laborious as possible and will make you wait until the counter is empty before they will do a PPT. In the last 3 years I bought $15.00 of fish hooks from Turners and $2,000.00 of gear and guns from Rifle Gear.

Name the store...save us all the hassle of dealing with them.
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Old 02-20-2011, 5:37 AM
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When I do a ppt I try to buy something from the store. Buying some ammo, magazines, etc shows them I appreciate them doing the ppt.
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  #29  
Old 02-20-2011, 8:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtmkinsd View Post
Ummm...C&R + COE = HSC exemption

If you are exempt from HSC, you are also exempt from safe handling demonstration.

Whoever is making you do the safe handling demo is in error.
The HSC exemption is only for C&R handguns.

See Penal Code Section 12807.(a)(6).

Quote:
12807. (a) The following persons, properly identified, are exempted from the handgun safety certificate requirement in subdivision (b) of Section 12801:



(6) A federally licensed collector who is acquiring or being loaned a handgun that is a curio or relic, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, who has a current certificate of eligibility issued to him or her by the department pursuant to Section 12071
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Old 02-20-2011, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
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The HSC exemption is only for C&R handguns.

See Penal Code Section 12807.(a)(6).
^^ what he said.
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Old 02-20-2011, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdouglas1980 View Post
^^ what he said.
Ya, got that part...was thinking of something else at the time of my post.
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Old 02-20-2011, 1:01 PM
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Default Not worried in the slightest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kantstudien View Post
Is it really wise to cause trouble while the gun you are transferring is in their possession? It might get accidentally "dropped" while in storage...
I will be picking up the handgun on Monday afternoon. Dana at the CADOJ will not be in till Tuesday morning.

After picking up the handgun I may just make a couple other purchases as a farewell. I have been shopping there for over 20 years and I think it would be a good time to remind them of how many purchases I have made there over the years.

I have a couple of other ideas of things to do, but I do not want to talk about them before tomorrow afternoon
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Old 02-20-2011, 1:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fjold View Post
Get a CCW and you wouldn't have to do the safety demonstration or have an HSC.
Quit poking me with the sharp stick.
I just mailed the renewal for my Utah permit, and hopefully my paperwork will be processed in Oregon soon.
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Old 02-20-2011, 5:02 PM
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Seriously, why dont these guys realize that

A pleasant PPT=A happy customer.

A happy customer=A return customer.

A return customer=MORE MONEY
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  #35  
Old 02-20-2011, 5:35 PM
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Can you use an out of state CCW license to avoid a safety demonstration (assuming you already have the CA HSC)? Or does it have to be a CA CCW?
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Old 02-20-2011, 5:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
If it is a PPT, then the total fees that is be charged is $35 PERIOD. So, the handling fee is not legit. If they don't want to do the PPT at a gun show, then they shouldn't do it an they shouldn't violate the law if they decide to do it.
I called the FFl yesterday and told about their fee. The lady got up in arms about it. It's my right to charge what ever I want and besides the service is for you, without me you couldn't buy a gun!

I said, I understand but the law IS the law, $35 is all you can charge... She hung up on me.

Just a wonderful person to deal with. I did a search for the shop on Google and found some interesting reviews. They don't have a website, but posted reviews indicate a few folks have had issues with the same lady.
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  #37  
Old 02-20-2011, 6:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack L View Post
Can you use an out of state CCW license to avoid a safety demonstration (assuming you already have the CA HSC)? Or does it have to be a CA CCW?
has to be a CA CCW to be exempt from the HSC,

Quote:
12807. (a) The following persons, properly identified, are exempted from the handgun safety certificate requirement in subdivision (b) of Section 12801:

(9) Any individual who has a valid concealed weapons permit issued pursuant to Section 12050.
there is no blanket CCW exemption to the HSD. The HSD exemption refers back to the HSC exemption.

Quote:
12071(b)(8)(J) The persons who are exempt from the requirements of subdivision (b) of Section 12801, pursuant to Section 12807, are also exempt from performing the safe handling demonstration.
Since only 12050-issued CCWs are exempt from the HSC and therefore are also exmept from the HSD regs, it does not extend to out-of-state CCWs.
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  #38  
Old 02-20-2011, 7:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by parcours View Post
I called the FFl yesterday and told about their fee. The lady got up in arms about it. It's my right to charge what ever I want and besides the service is for you, without me you couldn't buy a gun!
Let her know there are plenty of other dealers out there, so she is now wrong on two counts. She is charging more than allowed by law and you will show her you can buy a gun without her.
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  #39  
Old 02-20-2011, 8:32 PM
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Not true without a name of the offending dealer. It didn't happen unless we all can be protected. Share the wealth please!!!!!
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  #40  
Old 02-21-2011, 12:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by parcours View Post
I called the FFl yesterday and told about their fee. The lady got up in arms about it. It's my right to charge what ever I want and besides the service is for you, without me you couldn't buy a gun!

I said, I understand but the law IS the law, $35 is all you can charge... She hung up on me.

Just a wonderful person to deal with. I did a search for the shop on Google and found some interesting reviews. They don't have a website, but posted reviews indicate a few folks have had issues with the same lady.
You should have told her that without people like you shopping at her store, she wouldn't be in business.
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