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Concealed Carry Discussion General discussion regarding CCW/LTC in California

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  #1  
Old 01-29-2014, 2:57 PM
Jason95357 Jason95357 is offline
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Default Legality of sign?

How legal is this sign? It is on the entrances to the City of Modesto / Stanislaus County downtown building at 1010 Tenth Street Place.

"Security Officers" are rent-a-cop kids who I wouldn't want to share my carry status or info with.
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Old 01-29-2014, 3:05 PM
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Old 01-29-2014, 3:07 PM
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Surprisingly, it has legal weight because it is posted an the entrance of a Gov owned/operated building. [PC 602(y)]

Failure to comply may result in a trespassing citation.
In addition, they can report you to your issuing agency in order to get your permit revoked.



Penal Code 602
Except as provided in subdivision (u), subdivision (v), subdivision (x), and Section 602.8, every person who willfully commits a trespass by any of the following acts is guilty of a misdemeanor:
(y) Except as permitted by federal law, intentionally avoiding submission to the screening and inspection of one's person and accessible property in accordance with the procedures being applied to control access when entering or reentering a courthouse or a city, county, city and county, or state building if entrances to the courthouse or the city, county, city and county, or state building have been posted with a statement providing reasonable notice that prosecution may result from a trespass described in this subdivision.
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Last edited by Quiet; 01-29-2014 at 3:09 PM..
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Old 01-29-2014, 3:13 PM
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Hell, they could legally declare it a GFZ. I think this sign is better than "no guns at all".
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Old 01-29-2014, 3:18 PM
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So my question would be, what does this "Security Officer" do when you check in with them?

Do they make a note on a clipboard that "Joe Smith Entered at 1425, armed with a Colt 1911".

Do they refuse you entrance? That is not what I read from the sign.

It's not like you are going to let a rent-a-cop inspect your gun. What would they inspect if for anyway? "Yeeeup...Its a gun. And, gee, it's even loaded!"

Kind of dumb when you think about it.
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Old 01-29-2014, 3:33 PM
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Mostly like it so that they can confirm you have a valid carry permit and to notate it on their daily report (john smith entered at 1200 hrs with a handgun & has a permit).
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Old 01-29-2014, 3:44 PM
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Will follow up with an email to them to find out what occurs if a CCW holder wants to enter with a weapon.

What if they notify IA each time? What if someone always carries? Something to ask the IA I guess.
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Old 01-29-2014, 7:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Jason95357 View Post
Will follow up with an email to them to find out what occurs if a CCW holder wants to enter with a weapon.

What if they notify IA each time? What if someone always carries? Something to ask the IA I guess.
Why not go there without a weapon and ask the questions?
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Old 01-29-2014, 8:07 PM
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Depends. Please refer to penal code 26150.
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Why make it clear when there is an agency that can make up and enforce their own laws? Its one of those things where you need to make the personal decision as to whether you want to be right or free. Is it worth it to you?
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Old 01-29-2014, 8:10 PM
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All they can do is ask you to leave if your carrying legally. That is if they find out your carrying. Trespassing is another issue. If that is a place of business not operated by the Govt and I had a choice to do business there or not i would just avoid it.
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Why make it clear when there is an agency that can make up and enforce their own laws? Its one of those things where you need to make the personal decision as to whether you want to be right or free. Is it worth it to you?

Last edited by BigL; 01-29-2014 at 8:14 PM..
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  #11  
Old 01-29-2014, 8:26 PM
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Originally Posted by eventhorizons View Post
So my question would be, what does this "Security Officer" do when you check in with them?

Do they make a note on a clipboard that "Joe Smith Entered at 1425, armed with a Colt 1911".

Do they refuse you entrance? That is not what I read from the sign.

It's not like you are going to let a rent-a-cop inspect your gun. What would they inspect if for anyway? "Yeeeup...Its a gun. And, gee, it's even loaded!"

Kind of dumb when you think about it.
It is very dumb, actually. I went in and asked:

"If I have a permit and a weapon, what is the procedure?" They said they check the permit photograph to make sure it matches, and then you can go on in.

I asked if they write down the info or notify anyone, they said no.

How completely pointless is that? A criminal isn't going to notify them they have a weapon (and they have no metal detector or wands). All this does is set a legal CCW carrier up for a crime if they don't notice the sign (there are 6 doors to enter, and on a busy day, you might go on the far left door which doesn't have the sign).

It does nothing good whatsoever except "scare" those who legally carry, and potentially expose them to others who come in line behind them knowing and to rent-a-cops knowing.

I'll be bringing it up when I have time. I'm really swamped right now, but I see no reason for this except intimidation and/or clueless fear of guns.

Last edited by Jason95357; 01-29-2014 at 8:33 PM..
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  #12  
Old 01-29-2014, 8:30 PM
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Originally Posted by BigL View Post
All they can do is ask you to leave if your carrying legally. That is if they find out your carrying. Trespassing is another issue. If that is a place of business not operated by the Govt and I had a choice to do business there or not i would just avoid it.
It is a City / County owned building (JPA, actually), so they can legally require you to check in with security per the CA PC they cite (and someone else quoted above).

If they had a local ordinance, could they then deny you entry? Otherwise, without a law about it, I don't see how you can deny me entry with my legally carried weapon into the public City Hall where I have to go to deal with city business.
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Old 01-30-2014, 12:43 PM
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"If I have a permit and a weapon, what is the procedure?" They said they check the permit photograph to make sure it matches, and then you can go on in.
lol, my LTC doesn't even have a photo on it. Its never had one so far as I can remember. Where the place is for a photo to be attached it says 'optional'
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Old 01-30-2014, 1:36 PM
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lol, my LTC doesn't even have a photo on it. Its never had one so far as I can remember. Where the place is for a photo to be attached it says 'optional'
Hmm what county? The DOJ permit style/format used by most counties has the persons picture.
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Old 01-30-2014, 1:43 PM
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No picture on my Mendo license. I guess they could live scan me again and compare the thumbprint.

I think I would choose the door without a sign and continue.
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Old 01-30-2014, 1:43 PM
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My permit is issued in Kern County and has no provision for a photo. It's what's called the "rice paper" permit (form BOF 4501 with a revision date of11/08). It does have my thumb print on it.
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Old 01-30-2014, 1:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason95357 View Post
It is very dumb, actually. I went in and asked:

"If I have a permit and a weapon, what is the procedure?" They said they check the permit photograph to make sure it matches, and then you can go on in.

I asked if they write down the info or notify anyone, they said no.

How completely pointless is that? A criminal isn't going to notify them they have a weapon (and they have no metal detector or wands). All this does is set a legal CCW carrier up for a crime if they don't notice the sign (there are 6 doors to enter, and on a busy day, you might go on the far left door which doesn't have the sign).

It does nothing good whatsoever except "scare" those who legally carry, and potentially expose them to others who come in line behind them knowing and to rent-a-cops knowing.

I'll be bringing it up when I have time. I'm really swamped right now, but I see no reason for this except intimidation and/or clueless fear of guns.
Laws and regulations on guns tend to be there simply to harass the legal users of them.
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Old 01-30-2014, 3:15 PM
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My permit is issued in Kern County and has no provision for a photo. It's what's called the "rice paper" permit (form BOF 4501 with a revision date of11/08). It does have my thumb print on it.
Its right below your signature on that form. "Photo (optional)"
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Old 01-30-2014, 5:44 PM
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My permit is issued in Kern County and has no provision for a photo. It's what's called the "rice paper" permit (form BOF 4501 with a revision date of11/08). It does have my thumb print on it.
They could also check your DL to verify its you, compare with your CCW, i guess. I agree It is totally pointlless unless maybe they are thinking if there is a situation in the building they will know how many law abiding citizens with CCW are in the building??
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Old 01-30-2014, 8:27 PM
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I don't see this as an affront on CCW holders. Based on the sign, the same requirement is made LOE. Basically if they see someone has a weapon that wasn't declared, they are a bad guy. I don't have a big problem with that.
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Old 01-30-2014, 8:57 PM
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I don't see this as an affront on CCW holders. Based on the sign, the same requirement is made LOE. Basically if they see someone has a weapon that wasn't declared, they are a bad guy. I don't have a big problem with that.
Wonder if it applies to undercover?

But unless they track you (which they claim they do not), what good is this doing?
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Old 01-31-2014, 7:51 AM
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Wonder if it applies to undercover?

But unless they track you (which they claim they do not), what good is this doing?
It makes them 'FEEL GOOD'!!!
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Old 01-31-2014, 7:58 AM
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It makes them 'FEEL GOOD'!!!
^^^This. Just be glad they included LTC's. It's a government agency, it doesn't have to make sense.
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Old 01-31-2014, 8:06 AM
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Default Government Building

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Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
Hell, they could legally declare it a GFZ. I think this sign is better than "no guns at all".
...entrances to the City of Modesto / Stanislaus County

I think the laws on CHL on Government Property might be different that Kroger
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Old 01-31-2014, 10:08 AM
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...entrances to the City of Modesto / Stanislaus County

I think the laws on CHL on Government Property might be different that Kroger
For someone with a License to Carry, there is effectively no difference between a Kroger and a State/Local (non-fed) government building.
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Old 01-31-2014, 2:58 PM
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For someone with a License to Carry, there is effectively no difference between a Kroger and a State/Local (non-fed) government building.
Sure there is, if that city or county has a local ordinance against it with no exemption for LTC. Yeah, that may be in conflict with the Penal Code, but unless one wants to be a test case, there is a very definite functional difference. I have no clue about Stanislaus Co. and the City of Modesto; I do know that both the City and County of Sacramento have such ordinances, as do many others.

Tangent: Unless the company's website is wrong, it looks like the nearest Kroger to Modesto is at 302 N Main Ave,
Brownwood, TX, which is about 1,300 miles from 95350.

EDIT: It's a decent assumption that Stanislaus Co. and the City of Modesto have exemptions for LTC, based on what the sign says, but applying this in a more general sense, many counties do NOT have that exemption.
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Old 02-01-2014, 5:17 PM
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They could also check your DL to verify its you, compare with your CCW, i guess. I agree It is totally pointlless unless maybe they are thinking if there is a situation in the building they will know how many law abiding citizens with CCW are in the building??
Are there any laws saying a CCW holder has to carry any other (DL) ID on them beyond the CCW? Clearly it makes sense to have it on you, but just sayin'.
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Old 02-01-2014, 5:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Jason95357 View Post
They said they check the permit photograph to make sure it matches, and then you can go on in.

I asked if they write down the info or notify anyone, they said no.
I think there is a real question as to whether that is or is not a "screening and inspection of one's person and accessible property," or just a log of activity and violation of privacy for no real reason. As with most things, there is no way to really know the legality until someone take a case through the various appellate courts (at least once).
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Old 02-01-2014, 5:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason95357 View Post
Are there any laws saying a CCW holder has to carry any other (DL) ID on them beyond the CCW? Clearly it makes sense to have it on you, but just sayin'.
It's not against the law to not carry photo ID, silly. I was merely suggesting a way they could check to make sure it is you if you do not have a photo on your CCW.
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Old 08-27-2023, 11:27 AM
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Default This location is still very CCW-friendly; even moreso today.

Follow-up: I've carried in 1010 Tenth Street Place (aka Modesto City Hall) dozens of times. There is a credit union ATM in the middle of the 1st floor. I don't feel the need to watch my back when accessing this ATM, and use it frequently.

These days all one has to do is show their CCW permit (and CA DL/ID if you're CCW permit doesn't have your photo on it) and they just wave me through the middle, skipping the the metal detectors. They don't even call it in over the radio or notify the other security these days (like they used to do in the past).

To me, this is a win: myself and others have "normalized" a CCW permit holder coming into the city/county public building so much that they don't want to radio it in or write it in their logs.
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Last edited by Jason95357; 08-27-2023 at 11:28 AM.. Reason: added extra details
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Old 08-27-2023, 2:11 PM
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Myself, I would honor the sign and check in at the desk.

I accidentally made my way into a very large hospital complex with full blown security inside the door. I neglected to look for signage on the entrance door because, well, I was sick.

Once inside and moving along I just rolled with it. Saw the doctor and made my way outside when done. I checked the door and saw no signage so I was in the clear.

For me the signs have to be legit for me to honor them. A simple no weapons sign gets ignored. I went to a gun shop that had no guns signage on the door with them asking ccw to check in at the counter. I asked at the counter what they were looking for in a ccw carrier and they told me just so they knew who was armed in the building. I never bothered to tell them I was armed but did stay out of areas I knew would get me in trouble like their range and one other spot.
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Old 08-28-2023, 1:47 PM
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It Carries zero weight. Carry everywhere but places that have a metal detector.
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Old 09-01-2023, 7:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cali-Glock View Post
Hmm what county? The DOJ permit style/format used by most counties has the persons picture.
I have my permit in Sacramento County, there is no picture on it.
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Old 09-01-2023, 7:34 AM
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It?s basically a trespassing sign.
If you are caught with weapons the only thing they can do is ask you to leave.
IF you don?t leave, they can then write you up for trespassing.
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Old 09-01-2023, 10:45 AM
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In worst case scenario noncompliance could result in unwanted LEO contact. In that case you?re the bad guy no matter what else happens and likely to result in the loss of your License.
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Old 09-01-2023, 11:33 AM
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Who uses a CCW permit ? Depends on what state you live in.

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