Would this be a good scope for an AR15 ?

[gogohopper]

http://www.leupold.com/hunting-shoot...-m1-illum-ret/

I would think so, but I also don't know jack

I searched the forums for this specific model and can't find a trace of it, which makes me think no.

Thanks

[ElvenSoul]

Save your money

Primary Arms 1-6x

[HK Dave]

Originally Posted by ElvenSoul

Save your money

Primary Arms 1-6x

Not sure if this is a joke.

He's looking to buy a $1700 optic and you steer him to Primary Arms?

OP, if you're planning on doing precision shooting and willing to go past $1K mark... take a close look at the following

-SWFA SS 5-20x50mm HD
-Bushnell 3.5-21x50mm HDMR
-Used Vortex Razor 5-20x50mm
-Used Nightforce 3-15x50mm

If you're looking for something that will shoot close range as well as medium range AND pay around $1K or more

-SWFA SS 1-6X24mm HD
-Vortex Razor 1-6x24mm HD
-Nightforce 2.5-10x32mm

I do think Leupolds Mk4 line is pretty decent, but for the money, you can get better.

What is the intended purpose of your optic anyhow?

[gogohopper]

Originally Posted by HK Dave

What is the intended purpose of your optic anyhow?

Med to long range

[GeoffLinder]

IMHO opinion you would be better suited with a 3.5-10x instead. 4.5x minimum mag is a bit much IME for an AR.

That is a very good quality scope BTW

[HK Dave]

Originally Posted by GeoffLinder

IMHO opinion you would be better suited with a 3.5-10x instead. 4.5x minimum mag is a bit much IME for an AR.

That is a very good quality scope BTW

I second this... I'd go Nightforce 2.5-10x32mm... or wait and see what the new Nightforce 2.5-10x42mm is gonna cost. I'm eagerly awaiting that puppy.

[ElvenSoul]

10x magnification on 600yd rifle and I get called the joker?

[HK Dave]

Wasn't referring to your choice in magnification, was referring to your choice of a $150 toy when the OP was willing to spend $1700.

It's like telling the guy that walks in wanting to buy a Porsche, "Hey bub, just buy yourself a Ford Fiesta and save yourself some money." :P

See my reasoning here?

[1911ShooterPhil]

$1749.99 for a scope?

I'm sure it's a nice scope...I am just not sure about putting a nice scope like that on an AR15. What happens if you break it and need to replace it at a moment's notice?

I put scopes that were literally 1/10 of that price on combat guns and those scopes still managed to do just fine in the areas and conditions I used them. I mean...I wish I had $1800 to spend on just a scope! To each his own, I guess.

--1911ShooterPhil

[hermosabeach]

If you are going to be changing elevation between 200-1,000 yards then you need a quality scope where the turrets and gears will hold true between adjustments.

The Mark 4 is a great scope. For the money I would take a look at the Night Force optics.

I was not aware of NF until I dropped into the Angeles range when the 50 BMG club was shooting and NF was one of the more common scope.

If you looks at the used market you will see that the scopes do not drop much in price so if you do not like the optic you can get out for a minimal cost.

As always - I would suggest that you try to find a group that is doing shooting similar to what you want to build the rifle to accomplish. To to one of that groups shoots and talk to the folks about their gear selection.

When you are looking to spend 2k on optics, rings, bases, levels and such, finding folks that already have and can articulate why is a good starting point.

[Iloveguns]

Originally Posted by 1911ShooterPhil

$1749.99 for a scope?

I'm sure it's a nice scope...I am just not sure about putting a nice scope like that on an AR15. What happens if you break it and need to replace it at a moment's notice?

I put scopes that were literally 1/10 of that price on combat guns and those scopes still managed to do just fine in the areas and conditions I used them. I mean...I wish I had $1800 to spend on just a scope! To each his own, I guess.

--1911ShooterPhil

If you wouldn't put a "nice" scope like that on a gun what would you put it on? There is a reason you pay 1/10th of price for your scope. Also please do tell what type of "combat" those guns are seeing! OP I'm not a fan of Loopys but if you are going to get one make sure the Knobs match the reticle. Mil knobs/Mil reticle.

[ElvenSoul]

Originally Posted by HK Dave

Wasn't referring to your choice in magnification, was referring to your choice of a $150 toy when the OP was willing to spend $1700.

It's like telling the guy that walks in wanting to buy a Porsche, "Hey bub, just buy yourself a Ford Fiesta and save yourself some money." :P

See my reasoning here?

we'll to me it seems you are telling him to drop a Rolls Royce Motor into a Pinto. More than $600 on a scope for a AR15 is just ridiculous!

I see people at the range with 14x scope and they are less than 100yds away. I just smile.

[HK Dave]

Originally Posted by 1911ShooterPhil

$1749.99 for a scope?

I'm sure it's a nice scope...I am just not sure about putting a nice scope like that on an AR15. What happens if you break it and need to replace it at a moment's notice?

I put scopes that were literally 1/10 of that price on combat guns and those scopes still managed to do just fine in the areas and conditions I used them. I mean...I wish I had $1800 to spend on just a scope! To each his own, I guess.

--1911ShooterPhil

It depends on the type of shooting you do. I shoot mostly precision so my scopes can often cost more than the rifle.

I guess bottom line, I put all the money I can into a scope first, THEN buy the rifle.

Most rifles can easily be made to shoot sub-moa, but most scopes can not track properly nor do a good job with mirage or resolution.

[HK Dave]

Originally Posted by ElvenSoul

we'll to me it seems you are telling him to drop a Rolls Royce Motor into a Pinto. More than $600 on a scope for a AR15 is just ridiculous!

I see people at the range with 14x scope and they are less than 100yds away. I just smile.

Good point, and you're probably right.

I guess generally speaking, if the guy has no clue about optics, he probably doesn't know how well his gun can shoot, nor can he shoot it as well as it can... course I don't know the OP.

I rescind my previous statements, OP go get a Primary Arms 1-6x until you've explained to us what you want to do and how well you can shoot.

On another note, I personally like 2x per 100 yards, but that's me... however when shooting for groups, I want the friggin target to look like its right in front of me. :P

[1911ShooterPhil]

Originally Posted by ElvenSoul

10x magnification on 600yd rifle and I get called the joker?

There are US federal government, state, and municipal agencies which have contracts for fixed 10x sniper scopes. These scope include the...

• Unertl MST-100 10x40
• SWFA 10x42
• US Optics ST-10 10x44
• Schmidt & Bender PMII 10x42

They are all designed for usage at distances up to and including 1000 yards for weapons up to and including the .50 BMG. I have personally used 10x optics (Bushnell Elite 3200 10x40) at lengthy distances in rough areas, and I can tell you that fixed power scopes have their place among combat optics just as well as variable scopes. Both are tools which, with adequate training and practice, can be used quite well by tactical shooters. --1911ShooterPhil

[CSACANNONEER]

Originally Posted by ElvenSoul

10x magnification on 600yd rifle and I get called the joker?

Yea, that's way to much. Irons out to 600 for me. After that I need a little help. I use an 8-32X NXS on my AR to reach out to 1000 yards.

[1911ShooterPhil]

Originally Posted by HK Dave

It depends on the type of shooting you do. I shoot mostly precision so my scopes can often cost more than the rifle.

I guess bottom line, I put all the money I can into a scope first, THEN buy the rifle.

Most rifles can easily be made to shoot sub-moa, but most scopes can not track properly nor do a good job with mirage or resolution.

I am not a precision shooter, so you know more than I in that regard. I am simply an "end-user" of products. I take what I can get, when I can get it, and make do with what I have at hand to do the job required. I need something that I can replace in the field when it breaks, and because of that, I am not inclined to spend $1800 on just a scope. If I were engaging targets at really long range and need sub MOA precision...then that'd be another story.

--1911ShooterPhil

[Iloveguns]

Originally Posted by 1911ShooterPhil

I am not a precision shooter, so you know more than I in that regard. I am simply an "end-user" of products. I take what I can get, when I can get it, and make do with what I have at hand to do the job required. I need something that I can replace in the field when it breaks, and because of that, I am not inclined to spend $1800 on just a scope. If I were engaging targets at really long range and need sub MOA precision...then that'd be another story.

--1911ShooterPhil

The $1800 optic will be 1000% more reliable then your $180 optic. So the need to be able to have a spare in the field is almost negligible. That being said no scope is perfect. I have seen everything go down NF S&B USO you name it. If you are in a die hard position where you need a back up scope quick then you would not want to rely on a $180 scope anyways. Most of the high end scope makers have Lifetime warranties on all there scopes. CS is usually great as well.

[zio707]

If your heart's set on a Leupold check out these links:

http://www.samplelist.com/Leupold-45...-B-P62991.aspx

http://www.samplelist.com/Leupold-45...-B-P63097.aspx

[HK Dave]

Originally Posted by Iloveguns

The $1800 optic will be 1000% more reliable then your $180 optic. So the need to be able to have a spare in the field is almost negligible. That being said no scope is perfect. I have seen everything go down NF S&B USO you name it. If you are in a die hard position where you need a back up scope quick then you would not want to rely on a $180 scope anyways. Most of the high end scope makers have Lifetime warranties on all there scopes. CS is usually great as well.

Except for S&B... I was pretty ticked when I found out they changed their warranty to 2 years. Jerry Ricker at S&B says he'll take care of us regardless... and I tend to believe him, but what happens when he's not there or gets promoted or something? eek

Why of WHY did Nightforce not make the ATACR FFP?!

Ooops...

[gogohopper]

My initial interest was because I thought I could get a good deal on one. I looked in the forum and didn't see where anyone had used one on an AR15, which is why I asked.

This scope and brand in particular is heavily counter-fitted by China. Just check ebay, or google the model. I suspect that's what I was about to walk into.

Thanks for all the good comments and opinions.

[The War Wagon]

No.

It would be an EXCELLENT AR scope for precision work.

[Justintoxicated]

Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER

Yea, that's way to much. Irons out to 600 for me. After that I need a little help. I use an 8-32X NXS on my AR to reach out to 1000 yards.

You must have eagle eyes!
I can't even see a 12" target clear enough at 300 yards let alone 600...



If you want a scope that will track well and hold zero, get the Bushnell G2HDMR. It's all the range for the California Precision Rifle Club.
When buying a scope you want a good reticle, decent glass, reliable zero and tracking.

[1911ShooterPhil]

Originally Posted by Iloveguns

If you wouldn't put a "nice" scope like that on a gun what would you put it on? There is a reason you pay 1/10th of price for your scope. Also please do tell what type of "combat" those guns are seeing! OP I'm not a fan of Loopys but if you are going to get one make sure the Knobs match the reticle. Mil knobs/Mil reticle.

I'd put an $1800 scope on a real precision weapon like a customized Remington 700 bolt action. Not an AR. But, that's just me.

See...I put a Weaver Classic K 4x38 on a DPMS carbine and Bushnell 3200 10x40 MilDot on a DPMS rifle. I need magnification and steer away from red dots most of the time (my eyesight isn't great). Those weapons & optics were used on security contracts (mainly CONUS, and elsewhere) and for training purposes (just CONUS). They mostly sat around in Pelican cases, but sometimes they got used during walkabouts and for deterrence & defense purposes. If the optics broke, they could easily be replaced. None of the folks my buddies and I did work would pay for optics & accessories, so it came out of our own checks.

At the time, I couldn't afford high end optics, so I went with what I could get via catalog, special order, etc. The Bushnell had a MilDot reticle. The Weaver Classic K was simply a poor man's ACOG (but, with a standard hunting reticle). They both held up okay (until they got banged & scratched up too much, then, they got replaced). Also, take into consideration...when I was doing that type of work, that was around 2005-2009 and thereabouts. Now, sadly, I'm just a desk jockey. All those new, "tactical" scopes and all those other cool gadgets weren't as plentiful and inexpensive as they are today. I had to deal with that I could get my hands on with short notice.

I mean, if your dept./agency/unit/etc. is willing to pay $1800 for a scope, okay, that's awesome...but me, as an individual, even me as a security professional...I cannot justify that type of money when I can use it for other stuff (comm. gear/medical supplies/personal electronics/tactical nylon/etc.), you know? That's just my opinion. I know the precision shooters and long range competitors out there will want better toys...and that's totally fine...but other people have other needs. Some see scopes as tools, nothing more, and tools are meant to be used and abused. Just my $0.02, that's all.

--1911ShooterPhil

[Justintoxicated]

Originally Posted by 1911ShooterPhil

I put a Weaver Classic K 4x38 on a DPMS carbine and Bushnell 3200 10x40 MilDot on a DPMS rifle. They were used on security contracts (mainly CONUS, and elsewhere) and for training purposes (just CONUS). They mostly sat around in Pelican cases, but sometimes they got used during walkabouts and for deterrence & defense purposes. If the optics broke, they could be easily replaced. None of the folks my buddies and I did work would pay for optics & accessories, so it came out of our own checks.

I couldn't afford high end optics, so I went with what I could get via catalog, special order, etc. The Bushnell had MilRad turrets and a MilDot reticle. The Weaver Classic K was simply a poor man's ACOG (but, with a standard hunting reticle). They both held up okay (until they got banged & scratched up too much, then, they got replaced).

I mean, if your dept./agency/unit/etc. is willing to pay $1800 for a scope, okay, that's awesome...but me, as an individual, even me as a security professional...I cannot justify that type of money when I can use it for other stuff (comm. gear/medical supplies/personal electronics/tactical nylon/etc.), you know? That's just my opinion. I know the precision shooters and long range competitors out there will want better toys...and that's totally fine...but other people have other needs. Some see scopes as tools, nothing more, and tools are meant to be used and abused. Just my $0.02, that's all.

--1911ShooterPhil

$1800 isn't that much...Look at the price of a 4x acog. Add Reliable tracking, variable magnification, mil/mil knobs, FFP reticle, zero stops etc and you can easily see why it can cost some money to get something good. I just put a 4-30x on my AR-10. Maybe I don't Need 30x, but I do need to sight the thing in at 100 before I take it out longer. I guess I'll just have to deal with people laughing at me while I zero and find a 308 load that works well @ 100 yards for me before I take it out to 300+

Last time I was shooting at 100 yards with my scoped ar I saw some people sorta smiling heard some comments about how much better their red dots were, cause that's what the military likes to use. When we grabbed our target all my shots were touching and there group was all over the 12" target... Then they wanted to know how I got my rifle so accurate. The thing is, I'm not military I'm shooting off a bench at the range... I can only get so accurate with iron sights, even at 100 yards, so I can't fully test the rounds I have loaded for accuracy. It's hard to tell whart .2gr of powder difference is doing with irons, unless maybe you have a rest, but even then I like to see better. I'm still learning but in order to continue to improve I need more range time, and I need to be able to see what I am doing in more detail.

[GeoffLinder]

Originally Posted by 1911ShooterPhil

I'd put an $1800 scope on a real precision weapon like a customized Remington 700 bolt action. Not an AR. But, that's just me.
--1911ShooterPhil

I would not hesitate to put a $1300-1400 ACOG on an AR, why not use a quality variable for a few hundred more if you want variable mag. A Leupold CQT is only a 1-3x but it costs about 1400 bux. Quality glass is quality glass, everything else is lower class

[1911ShooterPhil]

Originally Posted by GeoffLinder

I would not hesitate to put a $1300-1400 ACOG on an AR, why not use a quality variable for a few hundred more if you want variable mag. A Leupold CQT is only a 1-3x but it costs about 1400 bux. Quality glass is quality glass, everything else is lower class

I would not hesitate either. Quality glass is quality glass. I like quality as much as the next guy; but, sometimes there are other considerations: budget, availability (time), shipping, etc. If I could afford better optics and accessories for my weapons, I would...but, as a consultant/contractor on a budget...I make do and I get by well enough. I have learned to improvise, adapt, and overcome. I wish I had that type of money for just a scope. The Leupold Mark 4 LR/T 4.5-14x50mm is a nice scope with plenty of awesome features. Sadly, it's just not in my budget. I hope the OP is able to make use of that awesome piece of kit, though. --1911ShooterPhil

[GeoffLinder]

Originally Posted by 1911ShooterPhil

I would not hesitate either. Quality glass is quality glass. I like quality as much as the next guy; but, sometimes there are other considerations: budget, availability (time), shipping, etc. If I could afford better optics and accessories for my weapons, I would...but, as a consultant/contractor on a budget...I make do and I get by well enough. I have learned to improvise, adapt, and overcome. I wish I had that type of money for just a scope. The Leupold Mark 4 LR/T 4.5-14x50mm is a nice scope with plenty of awesome features. Sadly, it's just not in my budget. I hope the OP is able to make use of that awesome piece of kit, though. --1911ShooterPhil

If the OP want's to spend, it's his prerogative, but I do agree that you do not have to pay that much to get serviceable AND decent quality too. The lower end Leupolds, the Nikon's, Burris, and several other choices are good bang for the bux. You just have to spend a bit more when you seriously want what the best have to offer.

[Full Clip]

Originally Posted by ElvenSoul

Save your money
Primary Arms 1-6x

I'd only suggest Primary Arms to someone who was otherwise going to buy NC Star or Barska...

[PrimaryArms]

Originally Posted by Full Clip

I'd only suggest Primary Arms to someone who was otherwise going to buy NC Star or Barska...

https://www.primaryarms.com/Primary_..._p/pa6xrbd.htm

Check out the video and read the reviews from real shooters.
PM sent your invited to our proving grounds. Your welcome to shoot it.

Dimitri

[HK Dave]

Where are your proving grounds Dimitri? Just curious if you're also going to throw in some plane tickets and a hotel for him to try out a $150 optic. Because if that's the case, please count me in.

[Packy14]

Originally Posted by ElvenSoul

we'll to me it seems you are telling him to drop a Rolls Royce Motor into a Pinto. More than $600 on a scope for a AR15 is just ridiculous!

I see people at the range with 14x scope and they are less than 100yds away. I just smile.

That eliminates every acog.... So no I don't agree. As for PA, they show Cali no love with rebuilds and will never see a penny from me, they can keep their Chinese made wannabe optics.

[Full Clip]

Originally Posted by PrimaryArms

PM sent your invited to our proving grounds. Your welcome to shoot it.
Dimitri

Appreciate the notice of my comment and the generous, stand-up offer.
I'll look into this as schedule permits.

[PrimaryArms]

Originally Posted by HK Dave

Where are your proving grounds Dimitri? Just curious if you're also going to throw in some plane tickets and a hotel for him to try out a $150 optic. Because if that's the case, please count me in.

So no plane ticket drive your butt over here.
1000 palms
Garner valley
Souther California

Everyone with gun safety is welcome to shoot it.

"No flagging"

Dimitri

[HK Dave]

LOL Dimitri, I had no idea you were in CA, and pretty close to me. I always thought you were far far away. In that case, you're offer is quite respectful and generous and I retract any statement of sarcasm I had made earlier.

One of these days I will have to take you up on that.

[PrimaryArms]

Originally Posted by HK Dave

LOL Dimitri, I had no idea you were in CA, and pretty close to me. I always thought you were far far away. In that case, you're offer is quite respectful and generous and I retract any statement of sarcasm I had made earlier.

One of these days I will have to take you up on that.

There has been a few Calguners that we have met up with and have shot it.
The ACSS is a different animal. We went to extreme measures assuring the BDC,ranging,leads and wind are dead on! PM me when you want to shoot it. We normally start at 600-700-800

I shot this with
M193 16" upper 5 rounds @600


2-3 mph wind M193 600-700 yards


5.45 out of a Siaga with 6x 10-12 mph wind! Guys with Ak74 and 7n6 its on!!



Retired Recon Marine with UDT's to prove it lol shooting Prism version
soon to be out
He did this at 600 using M855 5-5 rounds






Active Navy
And pic cropped upon request.
15 rounds M855 at 600 yards 10 hits 5-7mph first group wind took it! 6x



X Army





600 yards
In 10-15 mph wind!


Dimitri

[Bobby Ricigliano]

Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER

Yea, that's way to much. Irons out to 600 for me. After that I need a little help. I use an 8-32X NXS on my AR to reach out to 1000 yards.

I can't even get my head around that concept. 300m targets in Army basic training were completely covered by the front sight post. I had perfect vision and I had a hell of a time lining those farthest targets up. How does one see anything clearly at 600 yards, much less put accurate fire onto it?

[PrimaryArms]

Originally Posted by Bobby Ricigliano

I can't even get my head around that concept. 300m targets in Army basic training were completely covered by the front sight post. I had perfect vision and I had a hell of a time lining those farthest targets up. How does one see anything clearly at 600 yards, much less put accurate fire onto it?

Back in the days Marines did it at 500m
Thats 545 yards. For me I almost lollypop the target and have it on top of post then right on it. But I hear you its very hard to do. Todays Army Marines use Acogs to qualify and complain about wind lol. Its why we added the wind dots they are a must in windy conditions.

Dimitri

[OpticsPlanet]

Originally Posted by gogohopper

Med to long range

OP, its all about what your needs are and what you're comfortable with. Some shooters like a low range variable when others will want medium variable range, etc. That being said, everyone is different. I have shot irons out to 400m on an AR. I can certainly do it, but I prefer the magnification now. Fundementals have been learned and practiced over years, so I prefer the optics now. At 400 yards, I like a scope up to about 10x. Right now I have a Nikon M223 3-12x42 on a AR platform and have no problem walking it out to 600-650 yards. Ive sat a a bench and shot after shot rang a 10'' plate at 600 with it. BUT, thats me and what I am comfortable with and with that platform, thats acceptable to me.

Airgun shooters need a precision scope at 33 feet...and you alot of them sport a Leupold EFR 6.5-20x. This is a $700 scope on an airgun. These guys are intense about it though. and at 33 feet, they can shoot keno card numbers out without touching the lines. They are that good. If you think thats not hard...try it. These guys like the higher and need the higher magnifcation and when they will pay for the most dependable and repeatable turrets.

GAP makes the GAP 10 308 AR. I think they guarantee it to about 5/8'' moa? $2500-$300 AR rifle. I dont own one, but if I did I know I'd be the weak link in the setup...meaning, I have a 5/8 MOA gun I want a repeatable scope, duarable scope, and great glass and lens coating quality. I want to know every time I click that turret its exactly that .1 Mil/1/4 MOA/etc...the glass to be perfect. I want to know if I was every off, it would be my human error. So, it would be a NXS/PR/S&B/etc. But, thats what I would choose if I ever save up the money for that kind of money before blowing it....


Sorry for the long wind response. Point being, make sure you know the criteria of what you like and want. We all can tell you what works for us, but dont take that as law...sum it all up and use it a resources. When I speak to a customer on the phone, I get every feature they like, I want all the criteria that appeals to them, to best find options that meet what will work and what is comfortable to them. Magnification, objective size, reticle, style of shooting, type of shooting, SF/AO, turret click, internal adjustment range, distance shooting, etc. There are a lot of choices out there and its not difficult to choose a few that really fit what YOU like, need, and want.

[PrimaryArms]

Originally Posted by OpticsPlanet

OP, its all about what your needs are and what you're comfortable with. Some shooters like a low range variable when others will want medium variable range, etc. That being said, everyone is different. I have shot irons out to 400m on an AR. I can certainly do it, but I prefer the magnification now. Fundementals have been learned and practiced over years, so I prefer the optics now. At 400 yards, I like a scope up to about 10x. Right now I have a Nikon M223 3-12x42 on a AR platform and have no problem walking it out to 600-650 yards. Ive sat a a bench and shot after shot rang a 10'' plate at 600 with it. BUT, thats me and what I am comfortable with and with that platform, thats acceptable to me.

Airgun shooters need a precision scope at 33 feet...and you alot of them sport a Leupold EFR 6.5-20x. This is a $700 scope on an airgun. These guys are intense about it though. and at 33 feet, they can shoot keno card numbers out without touching the lines. They are that good. If you think thats not hard...try it. These guys like the higher and need the higher magnifcation and when they will pay for the most dependable and repeatable turrets.

GAP makes the GAP 10 308 AR. I think they guarantee it to about 5/8'' moa? $2500-$300 AR rifle. I dont own one, but if I did I know I'd be the weak link in the setup...meaning, I have a 5/8 MOA gun I want a repeatable scope, duarable scope, and great glass and lens coating quality. I want to know every time I click that turret its exactly that .1 Mil/1/4 MOA/etc...the glass to be perfect. I want to know if I was every off, it would be my human error. So, it would be a NXS/PR/S&B/etc. But, thats what I would choose if I ever save up the money for that kind of money before blowing it....


Sorry for the long wind response. Point being, make sure you know the criteria of what you like and want. We all can tell you what works for us, but dont take that as law...sum it all up and use it a resources. When I speak to a customer on the phone, I get every feature they like, I want all the criteria that appeals to them, to best find options that meet what will work and what is comfortable to them. Magnification, objective size, reticle, style of shooting, type of shooting, SF/AO, turret click, internal adjustment range, distance shooting, etc. There are a lot of choices out there and its not difficult to choose a few that really fit what YOU like, need, and want.

Well it all depends if its CQB/medium range self defense then we can all agree the ACSS was made for that and so was the AR15 they go hand in hand. On the other hand its very accurate the moa is true on the glass its self.



We confirmed all the specs are true mathematically and at the range. This chart has orange stickies representing moa at 100 yards converted to inches as you see its dead on! We are consistently hitting targets at 600-700-800 yards with no adjustments just a 100 zero and wind hold overs.

Here is some video of us shooting it
http://youtu.be/nxwaiDeXP8c
Dimitri