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Centerfire Rifles - Manually Operated Lever action, bolt action or other non gas operated centerfire rifles.

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  #81  
Old 11-23-2019, 12:21 PM
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Starting in 2002 or thereabouts, a fellow named Vince Lupo, his Marlin 1895 and a good supply of Garrett Hammerhead cartridges took the African Big Six.

His rifle I believe was a 22" blued gun. There's a photo of him a few years later with a grounded hippo and an 1895 SBL. Either way, if one is willing to endure the recoil, certain loads in the .45-70 Government can do the job of the 600 Nitro.

Amazing.

Quote:
Vince Lupo

One of the first things you do after settling in (unpacking etc.) is to immediately go to a firing range and check that your rifle has not be en so mishandled as to warrant it useless! I honestly believe I heard gasps as I took my 45-70-lever action Marlin out of its case. The P.H.'s on this side of the "pond" used primarily double rifles and huge magnum bolt rifles. Too compound the matter, I loaded the rifle with the most unusual cartridges that they had seen, 540 grain, solid cast, Garrett Cartridge Hammerheads. After punching out the center spot 3 times at 100 yards and their examining both the cartridge and the decimated backstop, they concluded that it would do "splendidly".
http://www.garrettcartridges.com/luposafaris1.html
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Last edited by 200Apples; 11-23-2019 at 12:23 PM..
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  #82  
Old 11-23-2019, 12:41 PM
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Wow! After reading that article from garrettcartridges.com/luposafaris, some are taking the .45-70 into what i thought is uncharted territories.
Now that I think about that, I believe Brian Pierce[Rifle Magazine?] pulled off the same feat. Blew all the P.H.'s away there too. Whew!

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  #83  
Old 11-23-2019, 1:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 200Apples View Post
Starting in 2002 or thereabouts, a fellow named Vince Lupo, his Marlin 1895 and a good supply of Garrett Hammerhead cartridges took the African Big Six.

His rifle I believe was a 22" blued gun. There's a photo of him a few years later with a grounded hippo and an 1895 SBL. Either way, if one is willing to endure the recoil, certain loads in the .45-70 Government can do the job of the 600 Nitro.

Amazing.



http://www.garrettcartridges.com/luposafaris1.html
Interesting.
I wonder how a hot-loaded .45-70 would be evaluated over time, and many very large animals taken. I know it's been around for a very long time and successfully used all over the America's, but how many of what are considered "dangerous" have fallen to it, in comparison to other long established cartridges. I suspect there is a reason why more don't use it, but having never engaged elephant, rhino, hippo, etc., I can't speak from experience.
Perhaps Tanks, FJold, or others who have done it will chime in.
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  #84  
Old 11-23-2019, 1:35 PM
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I suspect there is a reason why more don't use it [lever carbine/rifle]...

Tradition, more than likely. Or the comment, "It simply isn't done! my good man."

By Jove!

I too would like to hear Frank's take on Mr. Lupo's story. Ballistically, the cartridge was up to the task although the platform is unorthodox for that part of the world.
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  #85  
Old 11-23-2019, 1:38 PM
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Edit: "Ballistically, the Garrett 540 grain .45-70 was up to the task." The recoil must have been *pronounced*.

splithoof, you've shot a 600 Nitro from a double rifle. What was that like?
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  #86  
Old 11-23-2019, 1:39 PM
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Elk hunter, very nice rifles!

I very much so agree with Randy. My 1895 CB (same 18” octagonal barrel rifle EH posted) is a beauty. It was like $680 out the door if I recall correctly and I got to inspect it before hand. Front sight was slightly off set - sight pushed fixed that. I disassembled and used 600 to 2000 grit sand paper to slick it up. Threw in a happy trigger and a lighter hammer spring for fun. It’s amazing now.

I shoot similar rounds to EH. I do a 405 gr with 13.5 grains of unique. It’s a great time. I just loaded up some HOT 300 gr Barnes TSX that I’ll be trying soon. Those are going to be hard to group. They’re going to beat the dog shi out of my shoulder and cheek bone.
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  #87  
Old 11-23-2019, 1:56 PM
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Originally Posted by BillyGoatCrawler View Post
Elk hunter, very nice rifles!

I very much so agree with Randy. My 1895 CB (same 18” octagonal barrel rifle EH posted) is a beauty. It was like $680 out the door if I recall correctly and I got to inspect it before hand. Front sight was slightly off set - sight pushed fixed that. I disassembled and used 600 to 2000 grit sand paper to slick it up. Threw in a happy trigger and a lighter hammer spring for fun. It’s amazing now.

I shoot similar rounds to EH. I do a 405 gr with 13.5 grains of unique. It’s a great time. I just loaded up some HOT 300 gr Barnes TSX that I’ll be trying soon. Those are going to be hard to group. They’re going to beat the dog shi out of my shoulder and cheek bone.
Thanks, get a slip on recoil pad like the one on my rifle. I like my shoulder to not ache. Loading the 45-70 in a strong action up to full potential in a light rifle with a hard butt plate even from the off hand can deliver some serious recoil. I like my retinas (sp?) to stay attached., yes that happened to a friend. I will drop in a trigger but the rest is okey dokey.
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  #88  
Old 11-23-2019, 1:58 PM
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I just loaded up some HOT 300 gr Barnes TSX that I’ll be trying soon.
I have waiting some of the same Barnes 300 grain TSX FN and some Vihtavouri N120... going to start and finish with the starting load of 44 grains for 2160 fps [more like 2000 fps from my 18.5"]... this will be my only high-velocity load, and only for lead-free hunting.

The rest of my .45-70 recreation will be with the 405-grainers and sub 1400 fps speeds.

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  #89  
Old 11-23-2019, 1:59 PM
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Originally Posted by splithoof View Post
Thank you for that, so I just did.
A 1894 SBL IN .44 would be of interest, especially if the custom shop would give it a matte finish. I really like the laminate stock as well.
I like a case hardened blue if I were to do such a thing.
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  #90  
Old 11-23-2019, 2:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 200Apples View Post
Edit: "Ballistically, the Garrett 540 grain .45-70 was up to the task." The recoil must have been *pronounced*.

splithoof, you've shot a 600 Nitro from a double rifle. What was that like?
Having had occasions to fire most all the common "stoppers" at one point or another, IMO once you get into the .416, .470, .500, .577, .600, etc., and similar bores sizes, perceived recoil is generally very stout, and greatly effected by gun weight, stock design, etc. The last time I had the pleasure of lighting off a .600NE, it was from a H&H double owned by a collector of such expensive toys.
Being that ammunition is expensive, two rounds were sufficient. And yes, it kicked. Hard.
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  #91  
Old 11-23-2019, 2:08 PM
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Originally Posted by 200Apples View Post
I have waiting some of the same Barnes 300 grain TSX FN and some Vihtavouri N120... going to start and finish with the starting load of 44 grains for 2160 fps [more like 2000 fps from my 18.5"]... this will be my only high-velocity load, and only for lead-free hunting.
I suspect you won't be shooting box after box of that.....
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  #92  
Old 11-23-2019, 2:11 PM
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I don't think so, either. But, it's like the Triple River Gunsmithing quote regarding the CZ short action chambered bigly... "if you subscribe to the carry-all-day, shoot-once philosophy of recoil management..."

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  #93  
Old 11-23-2019, 2:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 200Apples View Post


I don't think so, either. But, it's like the Triple River Gunsmithing quote regarding the CZ short action chambered bigly... "if you subscribe to the carry-all-day, shoot-once philosophy of recoil management..."

At this point, I don't have any faith in TRG. Done.
Just glad I got my rifle back, at least it was easily fixed.
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  #94  
Old 11-23-2019, 3:56 PM
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Huh.

I hadn't heard that story. And there they were touted on CZ's USA website!

Sorry to hear, amigo.
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  #95  
Old 11-23-2019, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by golfish View Post
This isn't the first time that I've read about this.

I do have a solution that worked for me. I wasn't that impressed with Henry's customer service so I sent the President of the company an email.

He sent me new furniture for my H001 that was damaged by me along with a hat and a coffee mug.

When Henry comes out with a side loading 44, I'll be first in line
I also wrote to Henry & I got a phone call from Mr. Imperato (I think that's his name). Well, he did seem apologetic & he did send my dealer a new rifle. But I would have been more impressed if it was repaired the first time.
Or (even better) if it was really "Inspected & tested" before it was shipped out. I don't like companies that B.S. customers with self-flattering untruths to justify a high price on their product.
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  #96  
Old 11-23-2019, 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by DueceMcGurk View Post
My personal experience is with a 2017 1894 in 357/38. At inspection noticed a loose front sight. No problem. Just needs tightening. WRONG. Improperly tapped. Screws stripped.
I had a 45-70 Marlin in recently to have the barrel shortened from 18.5 yo 16.5".
As part of the job, I had to drill and tap the barrel to re-mount the front sight after shortening.
I drilled the holes 1/8" deep and got 4 full threads with a bottoming tap.
When I installed the sight with the original screws, they were getting just 1.25 turns of engagement.
If yours was like the one I was working on, it's no surprise that the screws would strip out if they are only held in by 1 turn on 6-48 threads...
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Old 11-23-2019, 10:51 PM
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What's best for getting rid of sharp edges?
Cratex, stones or deburring wheels depending on HOW MUCH of the corner you want to remove.
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Old 11-23-2019, 11:02 PM
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Originally Posted by smittty View Post
Every new marlin I've examined has canted barrel/canted sights.

If you're using a scope or sticking with the factory rear sight then its not a big deal but if you're using a receiver sight you will see the front sight tilted to the left.
I use the rear sight dovetail to align the barrel into the reciever when I re-install a lever action barrel.
I clamp a an alignment rod to the barrel that lets me see the alignment as I am tightening.
There is a good amount of adjustment there as you tighten the barrel.
It's really not hard to get the barrel straight if you spend an extra minute and actually care while doing it.
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Old 11-23-2019, 11:08 PM
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Originally Posted by elk hunter View Post
a forearm that is off center on the mag tube I have seen
That's actually an easy fix.
If it's one of the forearms that is held on with two screws from the sides of the forend, those two screws thread into the forearm hanger block that is dovetailed into the bottom of the barrel.
Remove the forend and tap that forearm hanger block over until it's centered on the magazine tube and then reinstall the forend.
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Old 11-23-2019, 11:12 PM
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Or (even better) if it was really "Inspected & tested" before it was shipped out. I don't like companies that B.S. customers with self-flattering untruths to justify a high price on their product.
I wonder if any company does this anymore. I purchased a new Winchester 92 short rifle early this year. I sent it back after the first range trip. The forearm was a tiny bit loose, after a few rounds it was worse. I think of these guns from Winchester as first class too..
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  #101  
Old 11-24-2019, 8:19 AM
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Randall,
Glad to see you weighing-in on this forum. Your comments are always appreciated and respected.
Is there a Marlin front sight alternative that eliminates the 1.25 screw turn weakness? I have a used Marlin that the front sight base was actually soldered in place. Ugh.
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Old 11-24-2019, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
That's actually an easy fix.
If it's one of the forearms that is held on with two screws from the sides of the forend, those two screws thread into the forearm hanger block that is dovetailed into the bottom of the barrel.
Remove the forend and tap that forearm hanger block over until it's centered on the magazine tube and then reinstall the forend.
The 95 doesn't have that issue and even if it did you couldn't see it because of the forearm cap. I removed my cap and changed it to a cap from Brownells that has a sling stud and the forearm didn't have any alignment problems. The new 336 is the one that has that alignment problem,I don't see it as a problem as I can not tell it affects accuracy in any way just cosmetic. Trying to decide what iron peep sight is my biggest problem, I can still use a peep aperture with pretty good results a scope is better for me but I have always preferred the receiver type sights. Thanks for your input into this thread I feel a experienced gunsmiths perspective is needed and for my part I welcome it.
Regards
Bud AKA elk hunter
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Old 11-24-2019, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by DueceMcGurk View Post
Is there a Marlin front sight alternative that eliminates the 1.25 screw turn weakness?
I have a used Marlin that the front sight base was actually soldered in place.
The screws are simply too short!
Put in longer screws.
I didn't measure the factory screw hole depths (the cut off piece is still in my bandsaw's tray) but there is supposed to be at least 3 turns of engagement for any screw.
If the longer screws go to tight and the sight still moves, shorten the screw a little at a time until the sight is tight when the screw is tightened.

Solder is way stronger than screws but also way more work so the newer guns all use a screw-on sight base to save money.
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Old 11-24-2019, 2:56 PM
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Originally Posted by pennstater View Post
Wow! After reading that article from garrettcartridges.com/luposafaris, some are taking the .45-70 into what i thought is uncharted territories.
Now that I think about that, I believe Brian Pierce[Rifle Magazine?] pulled off the same feat. Blew all the P.H.'s away there too. Whew!

MLC
Yes and the August of 2005 Handloader Magazine had all the loads he used. I have read that article 50 times (toilet reading) and it has everything you need to know about loading the .45-70 for Marlin Rifles and all other rifles from mild to wild. It is my goto source for .45-70 loading data and all I use.

The .45-70 is my second favorite caliber, behind the .44 Spec/Mag. Note: Rifles in post #75 above.

I know Brian Personally and he did the article on my Hand Reloading Press for Handloader Magazine a couple of years back.. On his African Hunt he was shooting 400gr. Belt Mountain Punch Solids (solid brass) at about 2200 fps. He shot a Cape Buffalo Bull and the bullet went clean thru and killed a cow on the back side. OOPS. The bullet put a .45 cal hole clean thru the bull, took off the top of its heart and continued on thru the cow. It was just like they got ran thru by a 1/2" Steel Rod.

Brian is a pretty stout boy and he and his sons shoot more in one week than most of us ever shoot in a lifetime. As such he can take the recoil of hopped up .45-70 rounds (effectively loaded to .458 Magnum Velocities) And his boys can too!

He's a great guy and definitely one of "them that knows."

Below both of these guns were purchased in the 2005-6 time when Marlin was being taken over by Remington. Both of these guns sucked outright I got the .44 first and it was slow to operate and wouldn't feed flat point boolits, and the wood looked like ship. I chamfered the chamber mouth which fixed the feeding problem and then followed the instructions at Leverguns.com to improve the action. it worked! I then scraped teh goo that Marlin puts on its' wood and gave it a nice Tru Oil finish and look at the "fiddle back" which was invisible before.

The 1895 was a different story The lever and internals were so sharp that they cut me. literally! it took me about 3 hours to deburr the inside of that gun to where it ran smoothly. The wood was nearly sap wood and the gun weighed less than the .44 at 7 lbs on the nose. Kind of light for a .45-70 which really needs to be more like 9 lbs to be comfortable. I refinished the wood which came out nice, then installed a Gray-Coil recoil reducer which brought the weight up to 8 lbs and installed that big Pachmayer Recoil pad. I can shoot 40 350 gr silhouette loads at 1600 fps with that gun in one morning. My best group is 5 shots @ 1.75" at 100 yards with the Lyman Receiver sights. The .44 is about 1.5" at 100 yards. note both guns have Real Lyman 66LA's off ebay and XS white line Front Sights. both guns will cycle rounds as fast as you can work the lever!

I paid $525 for the .44 and $500 for the .45-70. and they were some of the worst made guns I had ever bought, and they were from JM Marlin,,, Not Remington! Assembled by disgruntled employees who didn't like what was going on, even though the company was close to bankruptcy and was dying due to their poor work. Then they all ended up on the Marlin Owners Forum talking ship about the new guns which 15 years later still has people asking if Remilins still suck?

Very few generic guns come from any factory that don't need some TLC to make them right. It's up to you if you want a nice gun for cheap, then expect to put some work into it, or pay someone to do it for you.

No whining allowed. Sorry

Randy







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  #105  
Old 11-24-2019, 4:27 PM
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Randy;
I'm curious about those XS front sights; are they part #112006A5002?.....
Looking to install something like that on a Ruger 77/44.
Thanx
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  #106  
Old 11-24-2019, 4:29 PM
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Glad I’ve kept my 2004 guide gun.
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  #107  
Old 11-25-2019, 12:25 AM
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Originally Posted by splithoof View Post
Randy;
I'm curious about those XS front sights; are they part #112006A5002?.....
Looking to install something like that on a Ruger 77/44.
Thanx
I really don't know the part # I got these from Brownell's 10 or so years ago.

Just make sure you duplicate the height of the sight and also make sure that the listing is talking about the total height of the sight or the height of just the blade. They are two different measurements and sometimes it's not clear which one it is.

Randy
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  #108  
Old 11-25-2019, 10:02 AM
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All this 1895 is giving me a fever .... for an 1895.

https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/h...inchester1895/

Anyone have an 1895 in 30-06?
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  #109  
Old 11-25-2019, 10:48 AM
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That'd be a fever for a Winchester! come on.

Cool gun, no doubt.
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  #110  
Old 11-25-2019, 11:47 AM
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All this 1895 is giving me a fever .... for an 1895.

Anyone have an 1895 in 30-06?
Does the wife's inheritance count?
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  #111  
Old 11-25-2019, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by DueceMcGurk View Post
All this 1895 is giving me a fever .... for an 1895.

https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/h...inchester1895/

Anyone have an 1895 in 30-06?
Does this one count? it's not a 30-06 but the 30-40 Krag is a pretty good cartridge to no?

Photo004.jpg
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  #112  
Old 11-25-2019, 12:50 PM
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30-40 is fine 'ol cartridge. What's the rod and reel?
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  #113  
Old 11-25-2019, 1:05 PM
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A Shakespeare Agility 8' 6" Med. and a ABU Garcia Ultra Cast
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  #114  
Old 11-25-2019, 1:43 PM
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A Shakespeare Agility 8' 6" Med. and a ABU Garcia Ultra Cast
Sweet, old set-up elk. My favorite is my old Fenwick and Mitchell 308. Brought in a load of trout with that set-up as I'm sure you have too.
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  #115  
Old 11-25-2019, 1:53 PM
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I used to troll it then changed it over to a bank rod, ya it sure took a lot of trout . Maybe this spring I'll take and soak a worm in a lake. I still have a old Fenwick 2 piece ultra light that still goes out from time to time, caught tons of bass at Pine Flat and other lakes on 4 lb line worming and working fat getzits.
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  #116  
Old 11-25-2019, 2:14 PM
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I like Marlin 1895CB with the long octagon barrel.

The thing about 45/70 is factory loads are made to be safe in the old Trapdoor rifles.

Handloading for modern strong actions opens the door for very powerful loads.

I'm prepping to reload some Cowboy 405gr loads. Then will play with some "modern" loads.
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  #117  
Old 11-25-2019, 5:16 PM
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^ ^ ^ yah fer plinkin' in my 7-lb GS, I'm stickin' with Trapdoor-level loads. Have a few handloads to try out like 26 gr AA7544, 12 gr Unique, 24 gr 2400 and a little warmer load of 42.3 gr 3031 all under a 405 gr rnfp. But before I build more than these samples I have to slug my gun's groove diameter. Might not have a fat enough slug.


Quote:
elk hunter

Maybe this spring I'll take and soak a worm in a lake.
Hahaha!
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  #118  
Old 11-25-2019, 9:35 PM
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Elk,
Very nice Krag 30-40. My curiosity about the 1895 in 30-06 is that we have quite a bunch of that ammo. It would seem to be a good round for someone who is more likely to unleash on Bambi than a Kudu buck. Apples is after Rhino-class game with his 45-70 :-).
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  #119  
Old 11-26-2019, 8:17 AM
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What the heck. Might as well chime in here. Here is (one of) my Marlin story--

https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/...4&postcount=16
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  #120  
Old 11-26-2019, 9:21 AM
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Quote:
What the heck. Might as well chime in here. Here is (one of) my Marlin story--

https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/...4&postcount=16
Quote:
A few weeks a some $375 odd bucks later, what I got back [was... an octagon 38-55 cowboy].

Holy Toledo! Ohio. That is fantastic!
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