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National 2nd Amend. Political & Legal Discussion Discuss national gun rights and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #41  
Old 10-14-2019, 7:08 PM
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Machine guns must be legal. It is a proper weapon for a well organized militia.
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  #42  
Old 10-14-2019, 8:51 PM
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The form 4473 is likely unconstitutional, if you follow the logic of Haynes v. United States.
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  #43  
Old 10-15-2019, 7:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrdd View Post
The form 4473 is likely unconstitutional, if you follow the logic of Haynes v. United States.
Would that be because of 11d, e or 12c?

11
d. Are you a fugitive from justice? (See Instructions for Question 11.d.)
e. Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana....

12.c. Are you an alien illegally or unlawfully in the United States?


Logic would require our representatives to actually use their brains.

Stuart
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  #44  
Old 10-15-2019, 7:46 AM
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Originally Posted by VaderSpade View Post
I was raided by, well by everyone. USPS, ATF, FBI, DOJ, CHP, Local Sheriff, SWAT, and I'm sure others.

They flew in from all over the US, and helicopters were circling my house in the days before the raid. I shutter the think what it cost the tax payers.

Under a law that says; any part when added to a firearm that allows it to fire more than one round per pull of the trigger makes that firearm an illegal machine-gun.

Under that law they arbitrarily determined that engraving a 1/8" triangle proof mark onto a raw upper made it a "counterfeit machine-gun"! This was a customers part and was NOT yet engraved but had instructions to engrave that proof mark.

They kept that upper along with other 80% lowers that had Colt engraved on them. They also took (and kept) thousands of hours of my art work that had nothing to do with "machine-guns" and dozens of SD cards with my trail camera videos. And they copied everything off of two of my computers and destroyed one of those computers.

Thirteen agents with M-16's went through my home for six hours and found nothing else illegal.
The USPS guy told me he had to draw the line when SWAT wanted to come in with flash bag grenades, and later the Sheriff said "You should be grateful we didn't shoot your dogs". My 11 year old yellow lab.

In the end they told me "Make no mistake you broke the law and manufactured "counterfeit machine-guns"!!! BUT we don't think you intended to break the law so we won't prosecute as long as you cease & dissent!

Before my case they found finished receivers with sear engravings at U.S. Anodizing and arbitrarily determined that engraving a fake sear onto a finished receiver made it a "machine-gun".
In that case they also said they didn't think the people intended to break the law so "we won't prosecute as long as you cease & dissent"!


Their house of cards is falling!




.
Good lord

You got the full guestapo treatment. That sounds worse than the US Anodizing story. What's the significance of a triangle on an upper? How long ago did this happen?

Last edited by AKSOG; 10-15-2019 at 8:09 AM..
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  #45  
Old 10-15-2019, 8:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AKSOG View Post
Good lord

You got the full guestapo treatment. That sounds worse than the US Anodizing story. What's the significance of a triangle on an upper? How long ago did this happen?
Last February.
In the US Anodizing case they had an FFL and were subject to inspections so there was no need to get a warrant. In my case they (as you said) "went full gestapo".

The triangle is a proof mark on Colt uppers. A few of my customers like to build retro rifles. Most of them are veterans that want a replica of the rifle they served with.

There are entire websites dedicated to retro builds.

I don't think the triangle is copyrighted, but a lot of engravers (myself included) were engraving COLT retros. I engrave 80% lowers only. The ATF called them blanks and have determined that they are NOT firearms so how do they even have Jurisdiction???
The ATF has no business enforcing copyright laws as the are strictly a civil matter, and I don't know that Colt cares. A few engravers were sent cease and desist letters but the ones that I heard of were not sent by Colt. They were sent by an air-soft company that did have a license to make replicas. My understanding is that even then they must prove damages and make a similar product.

Right or wrong I thought the worst that would happen would be a cease and desist letter at which point I would cease and desist.

The ATF told me that some of these "retro rifles" are making there way into the hands of drug cartels. I asked if that was through Eric Holder. They were not amused.

It seems as though the drug cartels see Colts as status symbols so the ATF has taken it onto themselves to put a stop to engraving blanks (80% lowers) with ANYTHING Colt.
To that end the ATF has arbitrarily determined that engraving ANYTHING Colt makes even a blank a "Counterfeit Machine-gun".

The case in the OP make that seem like a bad joke.
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Last edited by VaderSpade; 10-15-2019 at 8:58 AM..
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  #46  
Old 10-15-2019, 9:25 AM
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Wow. I'm sorry to hear you had to deal with that. That blows my mind the amount of overreach you are describing. I love the Eric Holder comment though.
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  #47  
Old 10-15-2019, 9:42 AM
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Wow. I'm sorry to hear you had to deal with that. That blows my mind the amount of overreach you are describing. I love the Eric Holder comment though.
I wish I had the money to fight them. This is backdoor gun control through intimidation.
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  #48  
Old 10-15-2019, 9:51 AM
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I wish I had the money to fight them. This is backdoor gun control through intimidation.
Did you reach out to somebody like Michels and assiciates to see if they would be interested help you pro bono or through donated money?
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  #49  
Old 10-15-2019, 9:56 AM
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Did you reach out to somebody like Michels and assiciates to see if they would be interested help you pro bono or through donated money?
I tried but because a copyright is involved no one will get involved, even though the larger case does not hinge on the copyright issue.
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  #50  
Old 10-15-2019, 10:15 AM
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Very interesting, does anyone have a link to these decisions or at least a case number and jurisdiction?

Quote:
In July of that year, prosecutors in Northern California abandoned a case against a convicted felon named Alejandro Jimenez after a judge found that the AR-15 lower receiver he was accused of purchasing in an ATF undercover sting did not meet the definition of a receiver under the law.

The ruling and subsequent dismissal drew little notice but prompted a letter to Congress from then-US Attorney General Loretta Lynch. She advised lawmakers that the judge's decision was not suitable for appeal and that if ATF officials believed the definition should be changed, they should pursue regulatory or administrative action.
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  #51  
Old 10-15-2019, 11:55 AM
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Too bad they werent able to fully force the decision, or get Sessions to identify similar cases across the country, as Id expect there are plenty with similar criteria.
I read an article from another source that said this line of argument could be bad for gun owners. If the old definition is untenable then it opens the door for new legislation to provide an updated one... that we might not like at all. Because the receiver is the firearm standard has not been too big a mess for us to deal with.
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  #52  
Old 10-15-2019, 3:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VaderSpade View Post
I tried but because a copyright is involved no one will get involved, even though the larger case does not hinge on the copyright issue.
What if a copyright attorney were involved? There's a pro 2-A copyright attorney on Youtube named Leonard French. I don't know how they might work together, but I really hate to see this BS go unchallenged.
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  #53  
Old 10-15-2019, 3:38 PM
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Originally Posted by intruder1_92tt View Post
What if a copyright attorney were involved? There's a pro 2-A copyright attorney on Youtube named Leonard French. I don't know how they might work together, but I really hate to see this BS go unchallenged.
The whole copyright thing just muddies the water. The real issue is government overreach.

They are using a law that says (Paraphrasing) any "part" when added to a firearm that allows it to fire more than one round per pull of the trigger makes that firearm an illegal machine-gun.

It is an unbelievable stretch to say that ANY engraving can do that. The case would be best fought using just the upper they took over a simple triangle engraving AND the US Anodizing case where an engraved sear marking was said to make those firearms machine-guns. The ATF did not have an answer when it was pointed out that Troy industries and one other major manufacture engraved that fake sear without issue.
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  #54  
Old 10-15-2019, 6:52 PM
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Do we really need a ruling and “like-minded” judge? The law is clear, and ATF’s rule making process is, as well. The law states what constitutes a firearm and a lower receiver does not constitute a firearm according to that definition. Whether or not the judge made a ruling is beside the point; what the judge did was point out an obvious conflict in the law that cannot be enforced. Has there EVER been a case where someone was charged with manufacturing firearms without a license for finishing lowers?

We should be taking action, instead of pondering. This may be a short window like Freedom Week. Is there any way to get a clarification from ATF? If a manufacturer decided to host build parties and is subsequently raided by ATF for ONLY manufacturing lowers, would that be grounds for a lawsuit based on an unconstitutional search and seizure?

The judge did not make a ruling, but pointed out an obvious and glaring flaw. What are the implications of this flaw, and how can it be legally exploited? The loophole (if one exists) WILL BE CLOSED, we should be EXPLOITING it while we can. Freedom Week 2.0
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  #55  
Old 10-15-2019, 8:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flygrimm View Post
Would that be because of 11d, e or 12c?

11
d. Are you a fugitive from justice? (See Instructions for Question 11.d.)
e. Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana....

12.c. Are you an alien illegally or unlawfully in the United States?


Logic would require our representatives to actually use their brains.

Stuart
My point is that you can't receive a firearm from an FFL without filling out a form 4473, and many of the questions query issues which likely violate the 5th amendment. In fact, in California, you can't receive a firearm at all without filling out a 4473.

That is why they are probably careful about prosecutions in this area. They don't want to risk a court throwing the whole GCA into the trash bin.
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  #56  
Old 10-16-2019, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quickdraw559 View Post
Has there EVER been a case where someone was charged with manufacturing firearms without a license for finishing lowers?
Bump for the quote. It would be interesting to know.
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  #57  
Old 10-20-2019, 10:59 AM
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Some PG rep needs to put this in concrete and drive the liberals to the nut house.
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  #58  
Old 10-22-2019, 5:45 PM
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National Review article exposing the whole debacle - https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/...oes-not-exist/
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  #59  
Old 10-23-2019, 8:02 PM
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So if I put a whale tail, a coffee can muffler, front spoiler and get a non op registration from DMV on a Honda Civic.....drive it on PCH ...does it make it an illegal car to be on the roadway because it looks like a Formula 1 race car? Asking for a friend.....
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