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  #41  
Old 05-13-2013, 8:33 PM
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tagged for outcome.

gett'em Mark.
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  #42  
Old 05-13-2013, 9:01 PM
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Can't wait to see the outcome...not personally from that area but even if they fixed the issue I would warn everybody not to go there
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  #43  
Old 05-13-2013, 9:03 PM
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I used them in the past as my FFL for years but have not been there for a while.
Nice people Roger and Lisa. I can't believe they pulled this stunt!
All the out of state sales I did with them had the serialized upper shipped to them and everything else to my door. Since it was not considered a weapon
when it and mags was disassembled. Years ago all they wanted was the serialized upper or lower

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  #44  
Old 05-13-2013, 9:42 PM
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i'm pretty sure they do not have confiscation powers
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  #45  
Old 05-13-2013, 10:25 PM
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This is too bad. I have had nothing but positive experiences with Roger's Relics over the years. I hope they make this right before their once spotless reputation is tarnished to badly.
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  #46  
Old 05-14-2013, 9:02 AM
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I will stand up for Roger's Relics. They are very, very clear in that they will not deliver high capacity mags, assembled or not, period.

I cannot blame them, not one bit, for not wanting to get involved in this area. Consider that it is a mom and pop, operating in a home in a residential area. Just think of the dozens of people in the area who would like nothing more than to see them shut down and arrested for the slightest infraction.

I recently transferred a scary black rifle through them and worked out the details on the phone before I completed the order to buy the gun. We made sure it was a legal for California item, prior to shipping it to them, magazines included.

They didn't "steal" your mags or confiscate them. They just refused to deliver them to you, per their posted policy. They said they will happily ship them back at your expense to the seller.

So go get a priority mail flat rate box and a stamp and label back to the seller, and a second stamp and label to put in the box so they can turn them around to you directly. This will cost you a week and the price of two priority mail stamps, at most.

There are California FFL's who will deliver disassembled magazines of greater than 10 capacity, and there are plenty who will not. This is at best a grey area, where the brave tread and I can't blame those who will not, especially in some circumstances.
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  #47  
Old 05-14-2013, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Just_some_guy View Post
I will stand up for Roger's Relics. They are very, very clear in that they will not deliver high capacity mags, assembled or not, period.

I cannot blame them, not one bit, for not wanting to get involved in this area. Consider that it is a mom and pop, operating in a home in a residential area. Just think of the dozens of people in the area who would like nothing more than to see them shut down and arrested for the slightest infraction.

I recently transferred a scary black rifle through them and worked out the details on the phone before I completed the order to buy the gun. We made sure it was a legal for California item, prior to shipping it to them, magazines included.

They didn't "steal" your mags or confiscate them. They just refused to deliver them to you, per their posted policy. They said they will happily ship them back at your expense to the seller.

So go get a priority mail flat rate box and a stamp and label back to the seller, and a second stamp and label to put in the box so they can turn them around to you directly. This will cost you a week and the price of two priority mail stamps, at most.

There are California FFL's who will deliver disassembled magazines of greater than 10 capacity, and there are plenty who will not. This is at best a grey area, where the brave tread and I can't blame those who will not, especially in some circumstances.

It's not a gray area. It's their policy. Don't confuse the two.
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  #48  
Old 05-14-2013, 11:40 AM
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This is something we have discussed here. We have Hi Cap permits but the issue is, how often do Mags break? We can see selling the parts but the outer shell leaves us wondering when someone in the state or ATF is going to give this a closer look.

Just look at it from there piont of view. Nobody wants to be on the wrong side of the law in these issues. There FFL is worth much more then the shipping to send back a mag. Your out postage, they can be out there license and with the climate today in this state with proposed bans and everything more powerful then shooting a spitwad there just covering there back.
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  #49  
Old 05-14-2013, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by McTac View Post
Just look at it from there piont of view. Nobody wants to be on the wrong side of the law in these issues. There FFL is worth much more then the shipping to send back a mag.
No argument there, their business their rules, even if I don't like them. The real problem is the way they handled the whole situation.

* Didn't inform me of the policy on the phone even though they knew what I was buying and who I was buying it from. I did not specifically ask about the rebuild kit up front because it didn't occur to me that it was necessary. But they said they had worked with this seller before and should have known to warn me IMO.

* They didn't tell me they had confiscated anything when I went to pick up the rifle. I had to find out for myself and ask what happened.

* They didn't volunteer to ship the kit back to the seller until I called back later in the day and pressed them on it. Originally Lisa just pointed out the sign that they confiscate [emphasis mine] all high-cap mags even "rebuild kits". The sign didn't say anything about returning to seller.

You would think a reputable business would have handled this better.

"Hey sure go ahead and order that but no rebuild kits."
"Hey looks like they sent you a rebuild kit, sorry we can't transfer that to you because it's too risky for us. Best we can do is ship it back to the seller on your dime."

Had they said any of those things we wouldn't be in this situation. The way it went down it was either incompetence or intentional shadiness. Combine that with high fees and I see no reason to go back there again. SO many better FFLs in the area that will treat you better than this.
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  #50  
Old 05-14-2013, 1:01 PM
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Check to see if they will ship the parts to someone out of state and then have that person ship it back. Ask if the seller will ship to another address outside of CA. There are middleman FFLs or a private person who could then ship it to you directly.

Depending on the magazines, you might be able to ship it 1st class, which would be around $3 or so to ship.

If the DOJ letter is not enough for them, then they have a problem unless the magazines were not in parts.
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  #51  
Old 05-14-2013, 1:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XDshooter View Post

It's not a gray area. It's their policy. Don't confuse the two.
Actually, it is both their policy not to release them, and a legal grey area in the state of California.

http://www.calgunlaws.com/wp-content...-Magazines.pdf

Q4: Can a Calfornia resident travel to another state, purchase a hi-cap magazine in
that state, disassemble it and ship the required replacement parts back to
themselves in ca4fornia?
A4: Penal Code section 1202O(a(2) makes it illegal to import a large capacity
magazine into the state of California. If you traveled to another state in order to
import a large capacity magazine, you would be guilty of a felony, even if you
disassembled the large capacity magazine before retirning to California. If you
disassembled the large capacity magazine with the intent to use it oniy as repair
parts, you could lawfully bring the parts in to California. In either case, you would
test the limits of the law, and be at risk of criminal prosecution.


Q9: Can you have enough spare parts to assemble a new hi-cap magazine provided
they are unassembled and intended for use as replacement parts?
A9: Whether the scenario you describe constitutes possession of magazine parts with
the intent to manufacture or with the intent to repair a large capacity magazine
depends upon the legal opinion of the prosecutor in the jurisdiction where the acts
occur. You could be charged with a felony (Penal Code 12280(a)(2)), if a
prosecutor believed that you were manufacturing a large capacity magazine.


The question is one of intent. You may well prevail in court or on appeal, but there is every possibility of being charged and tried and found guilty.

Also note that the Cal DOJ has not made a statement on importation of >10 capacity magazine parts for purposes of converting and assembling it into a 10 round magazine. So there's more grey area.

Or if the parts are for a magazine type that did not exist prior to the ban? That would easily constitute a felony importation.

So it is NOT a cut-and-dried "parts are legal, period".

The OP stated:


Quote:
Originally Posted by glug View Post
No argument there, their business their rules, even if I don't like them. The real problem is the way they handled the whole situation.

* Didn't inform me of the policy on the phone even though they knew what I was buying and who I was buying it from. I did not specifically ask about the rebuild kit up front because it didn't occur to me that it was necessary. But they said they had worked with this seller before and should have known to warn me IMO.

Did you not visit them at least twice for this transaction? Once when the firearm arrived to sign the DROS papers and a second time to pick it up following the 10 day waiting period? Did you not inspect the package both times and see the large prominent sign, both times? In the other thread, you said you'd "had many transactions with them over the years." Had you not seen the signs in all the other transactions?

Since the legal position of the Cal-DOJ is that importing parts for rebuilding existing pre-ban magazines are legal, can you put up a photo of the existing pre-ban magazines you already own and wish to rebuild with these parts?

It appears from your update the out-of-state seller is not willing to re-ship you the disassembled magazines directly, perhaps there is a legal reason that they will not?

Perhaps someone like Exile Machines will legally receive and convert them for you? https://www.exilemachine.net/

Last edited by Just_some_guy; 05-14-2013 at 2:00 PM..
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  #52  
Old 05-14-2013, 4:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Just_some_guy View Post
Did you not visit them at least twice for this transaction? Once when the firearm arrived to sign the DROS papers and a second time to pick it up following the 10 day waiting period? Did you not inspect the package both times and see the large prominent sign, both times? In the other thread, you said you'd "had many transactions with them over the years." Had you not seen the signs in all the other transactions?
Nope, been there several times and never saw the sign before. Maybe it's a new policy or maybe I just never noticed. Not sure what difference it makes... Obviously had I known about the policy I wouldn't have sent it to them.
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  #53  
Old 05-14-2013, 6:13 PM
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File a police report for theft. That's what they did, they stole something that is legally yours.
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  #54  
Old 05-14-2013, 7:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Just_some_guy View Post

They didn't "steal" your mags or confiscate them. They just refused to deliver them to you, per their posted policy. They said they will happily ship them back at your expense to the seller.
So, if the OP doesn't pay to have the magazine shipped back to the seller, what is the store going to do with the mag?
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  #55  
Old 05-14-2013, 7:26 PM
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I talked to Lisa years ago about this and they don't do what they don't want to do. It's there business. Fair enough. I've moved on to other FFLs that feel more comfortable with what I buy. They also don't do AR or AK pistols.
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Old 05-14-2013, 7:28 PM
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Rule #1 in doing a transfer don't assume anything. Always ask.
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  #57  
Old 05-14-2013, 7:35 PM
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+1 for RMB. Rob is a cool guy. Worked with me on getting a Ca legal Yugo 59/66 sks.
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  #58  
Old 05-14-2013, 7:39 PM
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Wow. I've used them for all my transfers and purchases in the past but I will deffinetly not use them going forward. I totally understand if they do not feel comfortable receiving the rebuild kits however it almost seems sneaky the way they post it on a desk. I mean, come on, not even on the wall? Plus, I'm sure the buyer spoke with them about the rifle and they should at least mention that they don't accept rebuild kits. The whole situation just seems sneaky to me and I don't like it. I mean, they never once told the guy they even took HIS magazine the HE paid for with HIS hard earned money. What do they do with all these mags they confiscate that other people paid for with thier money? Do they sell them? Do they destroy them? Do the keep them? I really don't like this situation at all.

They are nice people but this is not the right way to handle the situation and they will no longer have my business.
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  #59  
Old 05-14-2013, 8:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbas101 View Post
Wow. I've used them for all my transfers and purchases in the past but I will deffinetly not use them going forward. I totally understand if they do not feel comfortable receiving the rebuild kits however it almost seems sneaky the way they post it on a desk. I mean, come on, not even on the wall? Plus, I'm sure the buyer spoke with them about the rifle and they should at least mention that they don't accept rebuild kits. The whole situation just seems sneaky to me and I don't like it. I mean, they never once told the guy they even took HIS magazine the HE paid for with HIS hard earned money. What do they do with all these mags they confiscate that other people paid for with thier money? Do they sell them? Do they destroy them? Do the keep them? I really don't like this situation at all.

They are nice people but this is not the right way to handle the situation and they will no longer have my business.
Why is it their fault? You're using them. Always ask if they will do what ever it is you want to do. I always email her and if he said no I found some one who would. Yes Rob is cool.
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Old 05-14-2013, 8:08 PM
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Why is it their fault? You're using them. Always ask if they will do what ever it is you want to do. I always email her and if he said no I found some one who would. Yes Rob is cool.
I never said anything was "their fault", I simply said I do not like the way they handled the situation. Sure, the buyer could have asked, but given that he did not, I would think it would be best business practice for them to mention it. At the very least they should say "hey, your gun came with a hi cap rebuild kit and we don't deal with those, we had to confiscate the magazine.". They put absolutely 0% effort to inform the buyer other than a lousy sign on their desk which could very well be covered with items and not in view.

Again, I'm not saying anything is "their fault" but what I am saying is that they could have handled the situation with a bit more professionalism.

Last edited by bigbas101; 05-14-2013 at 8:11 PM..
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  #61  
Old 05-14-2013, 8:53 PM
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A few ppl asked the same question that has not been directly answered and I am curious about it too.

What is the the FFL / Store supposed to do with the confiscated rebuild kits if it's not shipped back to the sender?

Do they turn it in to some DOJ/LE center? Destroy them? or are they 'god forbid' flipped for profit?

All in all, I agree with most that they should've been more transparent with the confiscation. Unfortunately, it just reeks of shady.

Am holding off on future transfers with them pending outcome.
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Last edited by fishhoppa; 05-14-2013 at 8:55 PM.. Reason: added verbiage
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  #62  
Old 05-14-2013, 9:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fishhoppa View Post
or are they 'god forbid' flipped for profit?

it just reeks of shady.

Am holding off on future transfers with them pending outcome.
COME ON PEOPLE!!! Have any of you ever been to Roger's Relics? They are not flipping the magazine or doing anything shady. They are a very nice, older couple operating a kitchen table FFL out of their home.

While I may not agree with their tactics on this issue, it is their business and livelihood they are protecting. All you internet cowboys who have no idea who they are or what the heck is going on here need to find something better to do than jump on this ridiculous bandwagon!
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  #63  
Old 05-14-2013, 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted by ColdDeadHands1 View Post
COME ON PEOPLE!!! Have any of you ever been to Roger's Relics? They are not flipping the magazine or doing anything shady. They are a very nice, older couple operating a kitchen table FFL out of their home.

While I may not agree with their tactics on this issue, it is their business and livelihood they are protecting. All you internet cowboys who have no idea who they are or what the heck is going on here need to find something better to do than jump on this ridiculous bandwagon!

You selectively cut and pasted a segment of my post to bolster your comment about mudslinging and being an "internet cowboy" with no clue.

I am not one and yes I have done business with Lisa and Roger and yes I agree they are a nice couple.

I was asking a generalized question about what happens to these items when a FFL confiscates them and threw in a sarcastic comment about maybe flipping to boot. Yes, I am a big boy and realize any sane person would not throw away their lively hood over something as stupid as flipping these items. (Have to remind myself about tones & sarcasm being lost in translation with emails, posts, etc)

So relax - I get it. You're passionate about supporting them. I also gave them a +1 thumbs up in the "recommended Bay Area FFLs" thread.

Transparancy is always good thing.

I really really do not want to start an argument. So, I am sorry if my orginal post offended anyone.
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Last edited by fishhoppa; 05-14-2013 at 10:10 PM.. Reason: Add more
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Old 05-14-2013, 11:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Just_some_guy View Post
Actually, it is both their policy not to release them, and a legal grey area in the state of California.

The question is one of intent. You may well prevail in court or on appeal, but there is every possibility of being charged and tried and found guilty.
Nope. No law. Can't be prosecuted for "intending to assemble a high-capacity magazine" because it doesn't exist.
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Old 05-15-2013, 6:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdDeadHands1 View Post
COME ON PEOPLE!!! Have any of you ever been to Roger's Relics? They are not flipping the magazine or doing anything shady. They are a very nice, older couple operating a kitchen table FFL out of their home.

While I may not agree with their tactics on this issue, it is their business and livelihood they are protecting. All you internet cowboys who have no idea who they are or what the heck is going on here need to find something better to do than jump on this ridiculous bandwagon!
Come on? How does the fact that they're older and work out of their home make them immune to criticism?

They are still running a business with paying customers and my experience with them was not good, take that for what you will.

I never said they were bad people or should be run out of town, just that I don't like the way they handled things. Hopefully they will be more transparent about this policy in the future so incidents like this can be avoided. Personally it left a bad taste in my mouth and I won't be going back.
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Old 05-15-2013, 7:58 AM
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Its probably best to assume that a FFL won't touch or transfer non-CA conforming mags to you w/o talking to them first. It was my understanding you needed a certain type of FFL license to be able to accept and/or convert 'hi cap' mags. Without hearing Relics side of this, wonder if they get a lot of folks trying to do this, asking 'forgiveness' later (on hi cap mags, non-roster handguns or ...) instead of asking the right questions up front - specifically about the mags?

I did a transfer through a Tracy LGS, I told them what was headed their way, and they were very clear that they won't hand over hi cap mag untouched or as a kit on anything transferred to them. (But in their case, their FFL license will let them handle or block to 10 for you, for a $15 fee per mag, if you wanted that). So had handgun shipped w/o mags to FFL, and had seller ship kits directly to me.

Getting to a solution -- why don't you go get a flat rate USPS envelope yourself and put on postage and address back to seller, and just give that to them to ship mag back. Inside that flat rate envelope, also put a postage paid flat rate envelope that is addressed to you from seller, for the seller to pop cartridge into once they get it. That could be like than $13 total both ways?

You could also see if seller would ship mag on your dime (again, do the legwork of post-paid flat rate envelope) to a different CA FFL like Tracy who might agree to receive and block for you (you'll need to check with them).

Hope you figure it out! BTW, you didn't say what rifle you bought, but if it's AR 223 or 308, I'd be willing to sell you one of my 20 or 30 round kits (or CA mags) at whatever I paid, if that's helpful to you to get something - PM me if so.

Last edited by Trgt; 05-15-2013 at 8:02 AM..
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Old 05-15-2013, 8:28 AM
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Hope you figure it out! BTW, you didn't say what rifle you bought, but if it's AR 223 or 308, I'd be willing to sell you one of my 20 or 30 round kits (or CA mags) at whatever I paid, if that's helpful to you to get something - PM me if so.
Thanks, quite a few people have reached out to me with offers to help which I appreciate. I was able to find a replacement 10 round magazine for $56 shipped. Costly lesson but I just want to move on and put this all behind me at this point.
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Old 05-15-2013, 8:33 AM
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I never said they were bad people or should be run out of town,
Not literally. Most people reading this thread, and the other you started, know what the deal is.
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Old 05-15-2013, 8:44 AM
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Originally Posted by paul0660 View Post
Not literally. Most people reading this thread, and the other you started, know what the deal is.
I agree, without hearing the other side (shipper and FFL), the OP has more than made his point, time to move on.
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Old 05-15-2013, 12:52 PM
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Let them know how you feel...

http://www.yelp.com/biz/rogers-relics-santa-clara
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Old 05-15-2013, 1:29 PM
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Originally Posted by bbguns44 View Post
+1 for RMB. Rob is a cool guy. Worked with me on getting a Ca legal Yugo 59/66 sks.
Here, here! Great transactions with RMB Enterprises out of Milpitas.
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Old 05-15-2013, 5:11 PM
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I see you are in So Cal. Have you ever been to Roger's Relics? Do you know Roger and Lisa? Are you advocating that people go to Yelp and trash their up to now perfect reputation over an issue they CLEARLY have posted in their place of business?

Nice. Attacking our allies from within. They are one of very few kitchen table FFL's left in the Bay Area. Let's get the lynch mob riled up to take them out!
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Old 05-15-2013, 8:01 PM
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Originally Posted by glug View Post
Roger's Relics
645 Clara Vista Ave
Santa Clara, CA 95050
(408) 247-5379
I wish I could say I will never go to their store ever again, but...

I've never been to their store, and as I don't live in the Bay area, it is a sure bet I will never go to their store anyway.

Unacceptable practices to steal, confiscate, commandeer, other people's legal property. Nothing about the rebuild kit would have been illegal even if going through their store.

Lousy. Sign or no sign as to a warning. It's BS.

.

Last edited by CALI-gula; 05-15-2013 at 8:03 PM..
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Old 05-15-2013, 8:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Just_some_guy View Post

"a legal grey area in the state of California. "

"with the intent to manufacture or with the intent to repair a large capacity magazine"

The question is one of intent.
There are no "grey areas" in this law. It's very black and white. It's clearly written in detail. And one can prosecute for "intent" until they are blue in the face, but without evidence, and without an actual crime committed, "intent" is bullocks.

The only crime committed here is stolen property, with intent to steal.

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Old 05-16-2013, 7:52 AM
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Originally Posted by CALI-gula View Post
Unacceptable practices to steal, confiscate, commandeer, other people's legal property. Nothing about the rebuild kit would have been illegal even if going through their store.
Incorrect. It is not other people's legal property UNTIL it is transferred. It was delivered to the FFL and the FFL can refuse to do the transfer at any time (ask the BATF about that). A FFL does not have to deal with things that they don't want to deal with. There are MANY issues with magazines. This FFL chooses to not deal with it at all, which is understandable. You are not in their position, so you are really not one to judge them. It is said that it is known that they don't deal with it. Large capacity magazines are something that the customer should ALWAYS ask specifically about and not make assumptions.

They might not have seen the letter from the CA DOJ, but it is important to realize that it is just a letter and a new letter can be written and then everything changes. I asked the CA DOJ about magazines and was told that I can modify them to 10 rounds, but can not take them apart for parts. Why? Because that is what they said. The law does not say that, but that does not mean that a FFL won't have problems, perhaps big problems.

Quote:
Lousy. Sign or no sign as to a warning. It's BS.
Become a FFL and then decide what you want to do and what you don't want to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CALI-gula View Post
There are no "grey areas" in this law. It's very black and white. It's clearly written in detail. And one can prosecute for "intent" until they are blue in the face, but without evidence, and without an actual crime committed, "intent" is bullocks.
Incorrect as stated above. A letter is not the law. A letter is not Case Law.

What you seem to be missing is that the FFL can be charged, have their ability to do business eliminated, have to hire an attorney, have to spend a lot of time and effort on dealing with it and even if the FFL "wins" in the end, the FFL will NOT get their time and money back and it could destroy their business. Are you willing to put your money where your mouth is? If so, setup a fund guarantee to pay ALL costs for a FFL who does what you think that they should to cover all direct and indirect costs. Perhaps you will never have to pay out, but then you will be on the hook and your view might change. If you are not willing to do this, then, well, it says something.

Quote:
The only crime committed here is stolen property, with intent to steal.
That is completely FALSE. The FFL is willing to ship it out of state, which is their Right. They can not be forced do transfer items that they are not comfortable with.
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  #76  
Old 05-16-2013, 8:04 AM
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Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
Incorrect. It is not other people's legal property UNTIL it is transferred. It was delivered to the FFL and the FFL can refuse to do the transfer at any time (ask the BATF about that). A FFL does not have to deal with things that they don't want to deal with. There are MANY issues with magazines.

But the transfer was complete sans Mag Rebuild kit....
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Old 05-16-2013, 8:23 AM
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They probably have a nice stash of standard capacity mags thanks to there customers dime
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Old 05-16-2013, 9:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Ghost_Maker View Post
But the transfer was complete sans Mag Rebuild kit....
Yes, but what you don't get is that the magazine parts were NOT transferred, as per the FFL's policy, so that transfer was never done.
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  #79  
Old 05-16-2013, 9:12 AM
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Originally Posted by NORCAL#1 View Post
They probably have a nice stash of standard capacity mags thanks to there customers dime
Only if the customer chooses to abandon the magazine by not having it shipped out of state, assuming that the customer fails to ask about their policy.

Any customer who fails to ask a FFL about magazines and/or parts in advance is making a mistake on their own dime.
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Last edited by kemasa; 05-16-2013 at 9:16 AM..
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  #80  
Old 05-16-2013, 9:16 AM
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its like buying an xbox without controllers... Assembled or not or if glugs intent is to assemble it after the fact (which the FFL would have to prove intent that he would) bottom line is the mag rebuild kit came with the rifle..which is still legal in this state, it was not delivered with transfer of rifle... I mean we can all debate it all day long.. My personal opinion is I don't like to use the services of places with ?inable business practices..
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