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Calguns Concealed Carry County Information Forum Information on how to get a LTC in yourCounty

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  #361  
Old 12-02-2014, 1:54 PM
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Hmm, good point. I suppose taking any legal action to make them change their policy would be more costly than simply jumping through the hoops. It's the principle of the thing too... I HATE having to do all that extra that I know is illegal... but sometimes it's easier to bite the bullet (no pun intended) and play the game rather than take who knows how much time and energy to MAYBE have them fix their illegal policy.

Then again, I do like strippers and blow...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsnoforn View Post
...California gun owners must take greater efforts to win at the polls. Even sheriff's elections.
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  #362  
Old 12-02-2014, 2:03 PM
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IF you follow their illegal procedure.....just think, you would have legit grounds to talk to a lawer, as SRPD would be clearly not even following any sort of reasonable practice, especially if you have no criminal history.

But hey, dont worry, pretty much every cop I know, or wife of, admitted to me they used drugs before being a cop, so if a felon can be a cop, your every day joe citizen should be able to get a CCW. :P

....but I agree.....strippers and blow..... is nice!
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  #363  
Old 12-02-2014, 2:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GillaFunk View Post
But hey, dont worry, pretty much every cop I know, or wife of, admitted to me they used drugs before being a cop, so if a felon can be a cop, your every day joe citizen should be able to get a CCW.
LMAO, I've heard a story or two like that as well.
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...California gun owners must take greater efforts to win at the polls. Even sheriff's elections.
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  #364  
Old 12-02-2014, 4:11 PM
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I decided not to file my paperwork yet. I called just now and asked exactly this:

"Is the sheriffs office going to allow sonoma county residents to use "legal self defense" as a good cause to obtain a concealed carry permit?"

The lady on the phone said "no" and offered to send me to Lt basurto's voicemail. I requested either his phone number or his email so I could discuss this with him in writing and she refused to give me that information. I was told I would have to call her and be transferred and that he would not discuss this at all in writing.

What steps should I take next guys?

Any legal folks that can help out here?

Thanks


Quote:
Originally Posted by owenfred View Post
Squeeky clean windsor resident applying today.

Reason: "legal self defense"

Also included a copy of the letter from this post #287 about Lu vs Baca and the latest on peruta case.

Any suggestions for me?

I will update the thread and CGF as things proceed.
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  #365  
Old 12-02-2014, 4:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GillaFunk View Post
Goddit, from SCSO 4 months ago. It was a 6 month process, and I wasted NO time on my end getting the requirements completed in a VERY timely manner.

Look at it from this point of view, if you are OK with submitting all the non-required bullschit, and it only comes down to the money, think of it like this;
If you aren't a criminal, your letters of reference and your Doc ALL say you are a good guy, you fill out the application accurately, and Peruta has resulted that personal protection are justified issuance, then they really have zero reason to deny you. If they do, you have an EXCELLENT case for a lawsuit.

You either roll the dice and jump the hoops, or you follow the law and force your application through. Neither issuing agency is following the letter or the intent of the law, so yer potentially fooked. Either way you risk denial, but its on you how you wan to play the stupid game. Or, you dont apply at all and save the money for strippers and blow.
dont bet on it… i have a squeaky clean record and got denied for a pending speeding ticket (which was ruled not guilty and dismissed).. they can find a way

Quote:
Originally Posted by owenfred View Post
I decided not to file my paperwork yet. I called just now and asked exactly this:

"Is the sheriffs office going to allow sonoma county residents to use "legal self defense" as a good cause to obtain a concealed carry permit?"

The lady on the phone said "no" and offered to send me to Lt basurto's voicemail. I requested either his phone number or his email so I could discuss this with him in writing and she refused to give me that information. I was told I would have to call her and be transferred and that he would not discuss this at all in writing.

What steps should I take next guys?

Any legal folks that can help out here?

Thanks
i would call and ask to be transferred to sheriff freitas office and leave a message for his secretary that you want it out of his mouth whats going to happen. i had a phone conversation once and he said that he would follow the law so theres your opportunity to talk and ask these questions.. she would take your message that you have questions regarding the cow policy and the sheriff will call you back or relay a message through his secretary.. you can then ask the secretary to email that info to you.

asking for legal help on here is not going to do you any good as a lot of their policies are against the law.

you can get something thats called a declatory judgement before your application but you would need a lawyer to start it… iv got one on standby in case they piss me off too badly and I'm up for taking on the local law enforcement agencies and potentially creating enemies.

theres a cover letter on her on page 8 i think…. copy and paste that into ur word processor, add the parts about not collecting any of those before initial acceptance and submit them. when you get your denial letter you have a case. bring a camera with you to srpd and record it if they refuse to accept the application.


SO refusing to accept your application because ur a city resident, and SRPD refusing your application because it is not complete to their illegal standards is denying you an opportunity to apply and you have a law suit against both entities for that. there is no legal way for you to receive your permit.
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  #366  
Old 12-02-2014, 4:42 PM
owenfred owenfred is offline
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I am a Windsor resident. No need.

I just don't want to be denied as that gives them a reason to deny me later. I assume there is some legal BS to follow to make sure I don't screw this up. perhaps the best way is to just leave a message and record the phone call.
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  #367  
Old 12-02-2014, 5:04 PM
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I looked into doing the training with one of the two recommended (by SRPD) instructors... The SRJC says they're not offering the CCW course nor have any plans to in the near future, and the 3 numbers I tried for Scott, McDougall & Associates are all disconnected. Based on my phone conversation with Detective Boettger this morning, it seemed those were the only two they were going to accept a completed course from.

I'm over this illegal BS... who's got the number of a good attorney
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsnoforn View Post
...California gun owners must take greater efforts to win at the polls. Even sheriff's elections.

Last edited by speeddemon1187; 12-02-2014 at 5:09 PM..
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  #368  
Old 12-02-2014, 5:08 PM
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Mail the fecking thing in with a check.

When they deny you they will return the application with a cover letter. The language on the cover letter will give you ammo you need to fight back.

Until enough people apply to the SCSO and are denied for whatever bullschit reason Basurto pulls out of his arse, no lawsuits will be filed and nothing will change.

Someone who has been denied already needs to do a public records request on all these agencies and start building a case against them.

That seems to be the only way this carp will work itself out.
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  #369  
Old 12-02-2014, 5:10 PM
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sent you a pm with the lawyer that i was talking to. he knows a little about the situation and seemed willing. owns firearms..
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  #370  
Old 12-02-2014, 5:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GillaFunk View Post
Mail the fecking thing in with a check.
But don't you have to turn it in in-person so an officer can witness/sign it?
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...California gun owners must take greater efforts to win at the polls. Even sheriff's elections.
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  #371  
Old 12-02-2014, 5:17 PM
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Doesnt say that anywhere in the regs for the SCSO that I can recall.
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  #372  
Old 12-02-2014, 5:18 PM
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it has it in the DOJ application itself…. he's right.. no mail
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  #373  
Old 12-02-2014, 5:23 PM
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knuckle up boys.

Public records request all ccw applications.

these *****s ARE NOT going to follow the law. clearly the san diego case taught them nothing.

I'll throw in $100 for legal fee's should someone reach down and grab ahold.
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  #374  
Old 12-02-2014, 5:27 PM
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a lawyer can do all that…

i recommend applying to SO if you can… even if the lady says they are not accepting peruta as good cause..

i was denied before. so were many others…
if your going to win in court, a denial base on the sheriff not following the law the first time is not going to bar you the second time…

go apply, pay the 20… if you get a denial talk to a lawyer.. if not then were whining over nothing.. thats what i did..

thanks gilla! but when we win, eel get attorney fees from the county
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  #375  
Old 12-02-2014, 5:29 PM
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No, but the application has a witness signature line on the pages where the applicant has to sign.

Has anyone else mailed in their application? I realize it will probably get denied but as stated above, that's good fuel for a lawsuit.
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...California gun owners must take greater efforts to win at the polls. Even sheriff's elections.
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  #376  
Old 12-02-2014, 5:33 PM
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don't mail it, they will return it to you with a cover letter saying its incomplete.. the california requirement is that an agency officer needs to sign it as a witness of your signing it… i signed mine prior and they made me cross it out, initial it and resign in front of them…

draft a cover letter with your argument if your applying to srpd… bring your camera and record the process from when you walk into the door. tell them you want to submit it with only what required by law prior to initial application.. if they refuse.. walk out and submit tape to your lawyer..
srpd is blatenly disregarding the law

besides they are requiring everyone to go to their doctor for a psych eval… who i think is in gilroy or something like that….

they can if they require all of their officers and every other ccw applicant the same...
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  #377  
Old 12-02-2014, 5:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caliguy2004 View Post
a lawyer can do all that…

i recommend applying to SO if you can… even if the lady says they are not accepting peruta as good cause..

i was denied before. so were many others…
if your going to win in court, a denial base on the sheriff not following the law the first time is not going to bar you the second time…

go apply, pay the 20… if you get a denial talk to a lawyer.. if not then were whining over nothing.. thats what i did..

thanks gilla! but when we win, eel get attorney fees from the county
The problem with applying is that they (SCSO) won't even ACCEPT your application. I need someone to go with me to hold the video camera so it's on record that they (either department) won't accept it.
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"Waiting periods are only a step. Registration is only a step. Prohibition of firearms is the goal." - Janet Reno, former US Attorney General

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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsnoforn View Post
...California gun owners must take greater efforts to win at the polls. Even sheriff's elections.

Last edited by speeddemon1187; 12-02-2014 at 6:10 PM..
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  #378  
Old 12-02-2014, 5:37 PM
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for SR Residents…

cell phone camera works great for these things… go pro.. or gf, wife, kids… remember that the ladies up front are only doing what they are told and that you are in a police station or sheriffs department…

for best evidence… park car at sheriffs department.. turn camera on record.. walk in and tell them you want to apply, get their refusal on camera that they won't accept since you are a city resident… walk out… drive to srpd station… request to submit your application without their illegal requirements and tell them its against the law.. let them refuse. walk out, shut off camera, call lawyer and give him video…then ask me to supply you with the private emails i have with LT basurto for the case…

for county residents…
submit application, wait for denial, call lawyer…..ask me for emails
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  #379  
Old 12-02-2014, 5:39 PM
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'cept my wife works all day so I may need a fellow CCW enthusiast to hit record
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...California gun owners must take greater efforts to win at the polls. Even sheriff's elections.
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  #380  
Old 12-02-2014, 5:43 PM
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I'm going to call that attorney tomorrow and see what we can/should do before getting lawyers involved.
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...California gun owners must take greater efforts to win at the polls. Even sheriff's elections.
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  #381  
Old 12-02-2014, 6:28 PM
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i sent a memo to the lawyer to help catch him up to speed.. its basically a summary of this thread with statutes
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  #382  
Old 12-02-2014, 8:38 PM
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I've got a new video camera I'm itching to use. The real question is, handheld video camera or SLR video?
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  #383  
Old 12-02-2014, 8:57 PM
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Which ever takes HD! Or better yet, use one at SCSO and the other at SRPD, lol. Just let me know when!
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...California gun owners must take greater efforts to win at the polls. Even sheriff's elections.
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  #384  
Old 12-02-2014, 9:09 PM
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I've reported both issues (SO's refusal of accepting apps from city residents, and PD's illegal requirements) to the Calguns Foundation via their CCW issue reporting page. I don't know how many complaints they need before they'll take action, so hopefully anyone in Sonoma County who had a problem will report it to CGF as well. Maybe we'll get lucky and they'll send in their team of lawyers to set SCSO and SRPD straight! lol
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...California gun owners must take greater efforts to win at the polls. Even sheriff's elections.
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  #385  
Old 12-02-2014, 10:58 PM
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Many of us tried that months ago.....
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  #386  
Old 12-03-2014, 8:07 AM
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Gilla - did you submit your app in that 2 week period last Feb when SCSO was actually issuing?
Caliguy - I see your process. Did you actually get your license by doing this or are you in limbo?

The sheriff says he is there to "follow the law". We all understand Peruta is the law of the land, however, he will not accept it as long as anything relating to it is under appeal, and his county attorneys tell him he can get away with delaying.
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  #387  
Old 12-03-2014, 8:09 AM
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Video taping in a police station sounds like a good way to get arrested.

I think you have to tell them the conversation will be taped for it to be admissible as well. (Not sure about this)

I know you are allowed to video police in public places as long as you don't obstruct justice or the arrest, but it is likely to get you arrested and your camera confiscated.

Sucks, but I think we need someone with lots of time and money willing to be a marter for the cause.
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  #388  
Old 12-03-2014, 8:28 AM
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I applied during the two week period last year and got denied for a pending speeding ticket.. That ticket was dismissed and I applied again...

U can video tape in a police station legally and don't need consent from law enforcement.. You can freely record public officials and anyone within a public space without consent
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Old 12-03-2014, 9:07 AM
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Honestly, I just want to get my CCW permit. I hate all this legal crapola. Unfortunately, our public service agency (sheriffs office) which is paid for by tax payers believes they don't need to follow the same law they are paid to enforce....

This is so mind boggling to me. If I am subject to arrest, fines and possibly jail for not obeying the law immediately upon breaking it shouldn't our public servicemen be subject to the same.

Something is very wrong here and I am sure this wasn't the future our founding fathers had in mind for this country.
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  #390  
Old 12-03-2014, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
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Gilla - did you submit your app in that 2 week period last Feb when SCSO was actually issuing?
yes.

Quote:
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Video taping in a police station sounds like a good way to get arrested.
.
Police stations are a public place, where there is no expectation of privacy. I would film there, especially since I know I am filmed by their cameras there.




Chit or get off the pot people. Ya'll are WAYYYYY over-analizing this whole thing. Apply or twiddle your thumbs.
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  #391  
Old 12-03-2014, 1:56 PM
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I second that... Apply and wait for a denial..

If they refuse to accept ur application then call a lawyer
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  #392  
Old 12-03-2014, 5:10 PM
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FYI

Once you get your CCW, you dont need a safety certificate card when you buy a gun

Perk
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Old 12-03-2014, 8:43 PM
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Does the include the new long gun safety cert they are supposedly making everyone have?
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Old 12-04-2014, 5:35 AM
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Can an lone African swallow carry a coconut by the husks?
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  #395  
Old 12-04-2014, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
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Can an lone African swallow carry a coconut by the husks?
LOL, I prefer the phrase, "do bears chit in the woods?"
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"Waiting periods are only a step. Registration is only a step. Prohibition of firearms is the goal." - Janet Reno, former US Attorney General

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsnoforn View Post
...California gun owners must take greater efforts to win at the polls. Even sheriff's elections.

Last edited by speeddemon1187; 12-04-2014 at 10:25 AM..
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  #396  
Old 12-04-2014, 12:40 PM
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Default DENIED

I submitted my application on November 12, 2014 (the day the AG was denied her motion to intervene in Peruta). I received my denial letter today, 12/04/2014. It is dated November 25.

Reason for my denial is lack of good cause.

This is what I stated on the app in answer to Section 7. Details of Reason for Applicant Desiring a CCW license ("good cause" statement):

Quote:
I desire a CCW license for the purpose of legal self defense.


See Peruta v. San Diego, case number 10-56971, United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit. (“good cause” requirement beyond “self defense” is unconstitutional)


Also see Richards v. Prieto, case number 11-16255, United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit. (“good moral character” requirement is unconstitutional)
My denial states:

Quote:
Upon review of your application, it was determined that the facts presented do not demonstrate an immediate threat or compelling need for a CCW license. Therefore, your application for a CCW license with the Sonoma County Sheriff's Office has been denied.
It goes on to quote their lengthy current policy from their website (which has changed, again, since I submitted my app).

It also includes a contact number to call.

Standby. I will report back what I find.

Update: I called the number for a Lieutenant in the investigations bureau. The woman who answered, once she heard that I was denied, said that she was directed to send me to the Lieutenant 's voice-mail. So I left a message asking if there was an appeals process or if I could submit a revised good cause statement.

Update: Since I wasn't able to speak with the Lieutenant, and since the SCSO is currently violating the law, and since I'm a generally an impatient guy, I just sent a letter certified mail to both the Lieutenant and the Sheriff.

Here is a redacted copy of that letter. (In that letter I explain to them how they are violating the law, that Peruta is currently binding precedent now, and include quotes from US District Court Judge S. James Otero for reference.)

Update: I just received a callback from the lieutenant. He said they do have an appeals process, but that if I continue to state "self defense" as my good cause, I will still be denied, so there is no point in starting the appeal. (I'm not saying there is no point. I am paraphrasing what the lieutenant said.)

He went on to state that the SCSO position on this now is that they will deny "self defense" until after all appeals in Peruta, Richards, and Hawaii case are all settled.

Update 12/18/14: SCSO response to my letter. (A cavalier dismissal via email and reaffirmation of my denial.) I replied and requested to begin the appeals process.

Update 12/31/14: After not hearing back again from the Lieutenant for 2 weeks, I sent him another email. He then got immediately back to me and informed my that my file was passed on to a Captain who will handle my appeal.

Update 1/15/15: I received a call from a Captain in the SCSO today. He was very polite, professional, and friendly. He said that the Peruta case vote on whether to go en banc would be in one way or the other by the end of the month. He asked if I'd hold off on my appeal until them. I agreed. He had me surprised. I thought maybe there was news back from the 9th that I had not heard about yet. Then I immediately came to CalGuns only to find there is no new news, and the best case is we'll know something by January, worst case is there is no time limit. So I assume that the Captain just received bad information. Regardless, I can wait another 2 weeks before continuing my appeal.

Update 3/25/15: I was scheduled to speak with the Captain about my appeal this Friday. Then Peruta and Richards were set to be reheard en banc today. So I spoke with the Captain on the phone today, and we agreed to just keep my appeal in a hold state until we hear more from the courts.

Updates September 2016:

Peruta has been overturned en banc. The good guys lost.

On 9/20/2016 I called to speak with Captain REDACTED. He was the friendly Captain who said let's keep my app appeal on hold until the Peruta en banc review was done.

I learned that he has retired. So I was directed back to Lieutenant Carlos Basurto, who was the one who initially denied my app. I also learned that Lt Basurto was promoted to Chief of Police in Windsor and will assume that duty in one week. I left him voice mail.

On 9/21/2016 Lt Basurto called me back. I asked, given that Peruta lost, and that the SCSO good cause policy had changed yet again, if I could revise my good cause statement. He said it had been too long, and I'd have to apply again.

I plan to apply again soon. I will include self defense in my good cause, but I will also include other specifics to qualify with their latest requirements.

The SCSO CCW page, which includes their latest good cause policy: http://www.sonomasheriff.org/ccw

9/27/2016 I submitted another application.

Update 11/19/16: I received a denial letter in the mail today.

Quote:
Upon review of your application, it was determined that the facts presented do not demonstrate an immediate threat or compelling need for a CCW license.
My full good cause and denial letter are here.

Update 12/15/16: I spoke with Lt REDACTED today about my denial. Among other things, I asked him how I could be denied, while others (here on CalGuns) have been approved, for similar good cause, for seemingly lesser good cause, and for good cause as simple as just "self defense". His answer was that he doesn't know about any of those, that he has only been working there for three months, and he used his own judgement in my case, unrelated to any of those past applications. (I am paraphrasing from my memory of the conversation.)

Update 12/15/16: Submitted a PRA request to the SCSO Discovery Clerk

Update 12/27/16: I received a letter in the mail today from the Discovery Clerk stating that it will take another two to four weeks to prepare my PRAR documents.

SCSO response to my PRAR

Last edited by MudCamper; 04-11-2017 at 9:14 AM..
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  #397  
Old 12-04-2014, 12:44 PM
GOLDEN GUN GOLDEN GUN is offline
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Looks like we may be contacting attorneys soon
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  #398  
Old 12-04-2014, 1:49 PM
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GillaFunk GillaFunk is offline
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Here is what I used at the SoCoSo.

Personal Protection.

I also travel by motorcycle frequently in remote portions of the state for. Often those locations do not offer cell phone signal allowing me call law enforcement in case of an emergency. In such a situation I would unable seek safe refuge in a vehicle. If the situation arises that my life is in danger, it may also very well prove unwise to flee the situation, only to expose myself to a lethal situation should the antagonists incapacitate or steal my sole means of transportation. Thus leaving me stranded far from civilization, with no means to survive or navigate to safety.


Face it gents, ya'll are gonna have to sue this arsehole to get your permits. He doesnt follow the law, he makes up policy as he goes, he is not consistent with his issuing policy.

Funny to think he ran un-opposed during the last election.
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Last edited by GillaFunk; 12-04-2014 at 1:53 PM..
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  #399  
Old 12-04-2014, 2:13 PM
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MudCamper, I'm assuming you went through SCSO?

Also, I was unaware of the Richards v. Prieto case, so that will be one more thing to argue against SRPD's excessive requirements "policy".
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...California gun owners must take greater efforts to win at the polls. Even sheriff's elections.
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Old 12-04-2014, 2:32 PM
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MudCamper MudCamper is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speeddemon1187 View Post
MudCamper, I'm assuming you went through SCSO?

Also, I was unaware of the Richards v. Prieto case, so that will be one more thing to argue against SRPD's excessive requirements "policy".
Yes I applied with the SCSO.

Richards was the CGF/SAF case filed right after Nordyke, which then got stalled for years. It ended up being heard and ruled on the same days as Peruta. But the ruling basically just said, see Peruta.
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