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  #41  
Old 05-17-2019, 10:56 AM
sofbak sofbak is offline
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^^^ I don't have any interest in correlation to velocity. My curiosity lies with the function/data quality he gets from his sensor.

If you had good knowledge/experience on how thin-film resistance instruments work, you would see the same "issues" that I have observed with op's assembly.

So we (I) wait.....anxiously.


5 down, 17 to go.
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  #42  
Old 06-01-2019, 9:44 AM
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A bit of an update. The sensor has come in and I have had to make some minor design changes due to the sensor not being the same size as the drawing depicted.
The code seems to be working well, I can communicate between the Arduino and my python code no problem. I will be able to plug away at it a bit more this weekend and maybe seat some bullets with it to verify functionality before going forward with a real test.
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  #43  
Old 06-01-2019, 7:48 PM
CptDan CptDan is offline
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There is an article called Shooting in a Warehouse". It was a 100 yard setup in a warehouse in Houston,TX that was used as a range where top shooters would bring their rifles to test accuracy. The most accurate rifle was a 22 cal wildcat that was shooting .024 over bullet size for 5 rounds. If a rifle couldn't shoot in the zero's it wasn't considered. What they found out at the time was that barrel had to a certain length, the powder wasn't as critical as was the preparation of the cases. Search for the article as it is a great read.
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  #44  
Old 06-02-2019, 7:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CptDan View Post
There is an article called Shooting in a Warehouse".
I remember reading that article decades ago. An enclosed sugar processing warehouse that they would shoot at night going nearly 1K. No wind and a stable weather environment. Fascinating read.
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  #45  
Old 06-02-2019, 8:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aczesz View Post
And this is why reloading is more like an art than a science, but im going to try and get it as close to a science as i can! Take data and see if it is useful, then if its not try something else. Otherwise analyze the data to improve the process.

Great work! Effort like yours is to be appreciated. Even if the first try doesn't get you there keep up the good work!
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  #46  
Old 06-02-2019, 8:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothy8500 View Post
I remember reading that article decades ago. An enclosed sugar processing warehouse that they would shoot at night going nearly 1K. No wind and a stable weather environment. Fascinating read.
Enjoy it all again.

https://precisionrifleblog.com/tag/p...ting-magazine/
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  #47  
Old 06-02-2019, 8:38 AM
CptDan CptDan is offline
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Here the article:
https://precisionrifleblog.com/2013/...ifle-accuracy/
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  #48  
Old 06-02-2019, 2:40 PM
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Thank you for bringing back a fascinating article.
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  #49  
Old 07-05-2019, 6:02 PM
sofbak sofbak is offline
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Ok. Been over a MONTH now and no news from the arduino dood...

What could have happened???

I could postulate, but WGASA.




Sh!+!! I'm one over. Dammit....
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  #50  
Old 07-18-2019, 4:29 PM
aczesz aczesz is offline
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Not much has happened on my end. Been busy with family and going out to shoot with all this nice weather.

I saw today that AMP Annealing is making some sort of bullet seating force sensor device and program. There are some photos on their instagram about it.

As for my device, I have decided that the measurement will be "unit-less" for lack of a better term. I will be leaving the force unit as the voltage I have received from the sensor. This will remove any calibration error and keep things simple.

I have some ideas on how to handle time discrepancies in seating bullet to bullet. Will think about it a bit more and post it when iv decided on an approach.
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  #51  
Old 07-19-2019, 1:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aczesz View Post
Whiterabbit I am very glad you get the point here! While I might not get any meaningful data out of this project its worth a shot for that possibility that there is correlation between what i am measuring and SD. And I WILL be posting ACTUAL MEASURED DATA from this even if it is a total failure. I will try and calibrate the force sensor as best I can and I have a Magnetospeed to give me velocity measurements.



I will make the final parts out of Aluminum. I have a small CNC mill in my garage from....other projects
So, by the way, the way you make your measurements is NOT to correlate your force sensor voltage to SD. That would take too many rounds and subject to too much variability.

You simply take the raw data off the force gauge and plot the raw voltage vs velocity. That simple.

If you have a clear trendline, then you have achieved success, and can control SD by controlling "whatever" to uniform the voltage reading from your sensor.

If it's totally random (and I mean REALLY random, even a trendless map that shows something like a trumpet shape is potentially a winner, even tho there is no way to trend it), then the experiment is a failure.
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  #52  
Old 07-22-2019, 10:14 AM
LynnJr LynnJr is offline
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Ignore the Tensions guy as he makes no sense at all.
My scales measure in pounds ounces grams cups grains and tons.
None of my scales measure in scales.
My speedometer measures in miles per hour not speedometers. I have one that measures in kilometres per hour not speedometers per hour.

Tension of a brass case is measured in the amount of force required to seat the bullet and it will change if you don't anneal the brass on a loose fitting chamber like Guffey uses.
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  #53  
Old 07-22-2019, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnJr View Post
Ignore the Tensions guy as he makes no sense at all.
My scales measure in pounds ounces grams cups grains and tons.
None of my scales measure in scales.
My speedometer measures in miles per hour not speedometers. I have one that measures in kilometres per hour not speedometers per hour.
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  #54  
Old 07-23-2019, 8:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiterabbit View Post
So, by the way, the way you make your measurements is NOT to correlate your force sensor voltage to SD. That would take too many rounds and subject to too much variability.

You simply take the raw data off the force gauge and plot the raw voltage vs velocity. That simple.

If you have a clear trendline, then you have achieved success, and can control SD by controlling "whatever" to uniform the voltage reading from your sensor.

If it's totally random (and I mean REALLY random, even a trendless map that shows something like a trumpet shape is potentially a winner, even tho there is no way to trend it), then the experiment is a failure.
I like this.

I was thinking to really see if there was a trend I would take 25 annealed cases and 25 once fired not annealed cases to test. All the same lot of LC brass, and loaded to the exact same specs. The non annealed cases would have a very different neck tension and should show a clear difference in velocity.

Any thoughts if this is a good idea or if i should just do 50 of the annealed cases?
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  #55  
Old 07-23-2019, 9:46 PM
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You aren't taking data for your tension test, so you can't plot any trend. In your case all you can do is track SD for each group, then run the t-test on the raw data to give you your confidence level that the SD change is real.

Your only conclusion in that test would be that your anneal is either better, worse, or the same, and how confident you are in that conclusion.
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  #56  
Old 07-23-2019, 11:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiterabbit View Post
You aren't taking data for your tension test, so you can't plot any trend. In your case all you can do is track SD for each group, then run the t-test on the raw data to give you your confidence level that the SD change is real.

Your only conclusion in that test would be that your anneal is either better, worse, or the same, and how confident you are in that conclusion.
The force applied to seating bullets will also depend on reloading speed. In standard reloading, we don't much care about the velocity of the ram, we can't humanly move fast enough to cause the bullet to develop inertia to cause setback, the height of the bullet seating die will press the projectile into the same case depth every time.

The force gauge will swing wildly depending on ram velocity. Attempting to move the ram slowly will likely take you in and out of stiction with a corresponding jitter plot.

At this point you may also start measuring the effect of different levels of tumbler media dusting (if using a vibratory tumbler), finger grease, case lube residue, etc.

For the readings to be valid at all, I think you'd need a constant velocity, high pressure, automatic ram that won't change velocity under dynamic load, such as a motor hydraulic instead of the manual ram. Perhaps a large weight on a hydraulically dampened rod, pneumatic setup, etc.
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  #57  
Old 07-24-2019, 1:19 PM
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Instead of using any mechanical gizmos, use VL6180X proximity sensor to measure the amount of powder in the case on downstroke. It should be small enough to be suitable for .22 calibers.

Obvious pros: 1. no physical contact. No external influence on the press, or cases, or powder, or anything like that. 2. possible pre-calibration for caliber/powder combinations. Unless you use some crappy brass like Maxxtech that you should've thrown away regardless, case variations should be small enough to detect both double charges and the lack of powder, and maybe even measure approximate grain count. 3. can be used on any press with little adjustment. Also can be doubled as round counter.

Maybe I'll overcome my laziness eventually and make a prototype out of this idea, but it's free to use.
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  #58  
Old 07-24-2019, 2:52 PM
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Fizz meant dust and foreign material on the inside surface of the case neck that might influence to reading of a force gauge in operation during bullet seating.

And he is right, the measurement-variability concern is a huge one, OP has a monumental challenge there. He'll have to come up with something, unless he believes that the effects leverage between seat force and velocity will be so huge that he can measure the leverage through any force variability caused by variation in his arm while seating. Possible, but REALLY unlikely.

Still, thanks. I've thought in the past about powder checks (besides the very cheap and easily available and easily set up RCBS powder check die), will check out the proximity sensor idea too. It's interesting.
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  #59  
Old 07-24-2019, 7:31 PM
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WhiteRabbit
The gage is available today and it has been available for quite some time.
https://lewilson.com/k-m-precision-a...ial-indicator/

When you seat bullets a burr on the neck a donut inside the brass or simple variation from mixing once twice and three times fired brass will all show up on the gage.

This is more important to the guys not turning necks than it is to the Benchrest crowd but because alot of shooters don't understand the art of crafting world class ammo it gets lost in the smoke.
On a benchrest chamber the brass has very little clearance in the chamber and it is extremely uniform for 100% of it's outside diameter. When a round is chambered and fired very little happens to the neck
On a so called tactical type gun setup with a sloppy chamber using unturned brass you have the worst possible conditions for accuracy. The brass is uneven the neck tension is inconsistent and when firing takes place it violently stretches the brass to a much larger diameter.
The Tactical type reloader then squeezes the neck back down so it can hold a bullet and the tension is vastly different in each reloading.

What you will generally see on the Target is a small cluster of shots then a high right flier on the rounds with more tension than those with less tension.
To test this out shoot a group of 10 shots at 100 yards with 5 rounds of virgin brass and five rounds of brass with 10 firings on it round robin style while a buddy feeds you the ammo.

https://www.ampannealing.com/about-brass-hardness/

The reason for the 6.5 Creedmoors popularity and accuracy is the chamber was designed by a benchrest shooter not a tactical shooter.
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Last edited by LynnJr; 07-26-2019 at 8:43 AM..
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  #60  
Old 09-22-2019, 1:28 PM
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Finally got some time to work on this project. Got the force sensor on the press and proved that I could actually take data. Now to finalize how to save the data as well as the post processing the data. Here are some photos of the setup.

NOTE: It looks like Amp Annealing has beat me to this. They have posted a good article with their bullet seating force sensor.
https://www.ampannealing.com/article...he-microscope/



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  #61  
Old 09-22-2019, 6:21 PM
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Don't tell Guffey it has already been done or he will switch from tensions to headspace with feeler gages.
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  #62  
Old 09-22-2019, 6:45 PM
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Annealing made perfect has anew video and they have this exact idea built with a linear actuator.
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