Is Christmas Christian

[TomMcC]

I would like to clarify something about the day of worship. I do believe that Sunday is the biblically approved day for the people of God to come together to corporately worship God. But God, may and should be worship everyday in our families or by ourselves. I didn't mean to imply that Sunday is the only day to worship.

[TomMcC]

The question, again, in a different way: does the will of man regulate what is true worship or does the will of God regulate what is true worship? Another way: is a worship practice legitimate as long as God hasn't forbidden it, or is a worship practice legitimate if God has positively authorized it in some way?

[billvau]

Originally Posted by glockman19

God chose the children of Israel, the children of Isaiah as the chosen because they followed his word and covenant.

The eternal covenant with Abraham (Gen 15, Gen 17) defines Yhwh’s relationship with the ancestors of Israel. Yhwh promises to serve as Abraham’s god, to make him a great nation, and to provide him and his descendants with the land of Israel. Abraham in turn promises to worship Yhwh alone and to observe Yhwh’s rules, including circumcision as the sign of the eternal covenant (Gen 17). This covenant is handed down to Abraham’s son Isaac and his grandson Jacob (Israel).

How about passage(s) that summarize that "God chose the children of Israel, the children of Isaiah as the chosen because they followed his word and covenant?" Please share those.

Genesis 15:6 says that Abraham belief is the basis for God imputing His righteousness to him:

Ge15:6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

There's nothing there about Abraham "following" God's word (which wasn't written until Moses). It was Abraham's belief/faith that God used as the basis for making him a child of His, right?

[teg33]

Originally Posted by TomMcC

Yes, I consider it a sin to worship God (Christ) with a special holy day essentially invented by the apostate RCC.....the Christ-mas. And, yes, you have hit upon the problem....because God doesn't say to. I said earlier that God has given us the Lord's day (Sunday) to celebrate the totality of Christ's life. As for my own birthday, I place that under the doctrine of Christian liberty, God didn't say specially that I could 3gun, but I use the general principles of scripture to determine whether 3gunning is ok to do. Likewise, I use the general principles of the scripture to determine whether celebrating my birthday is ok. I do recognize that some may have scrupples about birthdys.

As I said, yes it is morally wrong, it violates the 2nd commandment. Will it send you to hell, no. But isn't it our duty in love to obey God to the best of our ability? These views of mine aren't new, they have been around for centuries, which of course, doesn't make them right. But faithful men and women have asked.....what does God say.

I don't get it why it celebrate Jesus Christ birthday violate 2nd commandment if we celebrate it within Jesus teaching ? Because the scripture did not order us to celebrate Jesus Christ birthday, I am not allow to celebrate our Father glory day ? I considered Jesus coming to earth in flesh as one of God glory days. God don't required us to celebrate but as God children, surely we can celebrate for His glory and His name.

On the other hand, I see your point. You want to stated anything not written or ordered in scripture are morally wrong at least and potentially sins. You want to say that we have to followed scripture up to each iota.
Okay, I understand your position and I'm not going to argue. We just have to be agree to disagree. In my opinion, ones can not just followed every words and iota in scripture without understanding the heart of each God words. Most likely you will disagree with my point which is fine.

[billvau]

Originally Posted by teg33

I don't get it why it celebrate Jesus Christ birthday violate 2nd commandment if we celebrate it within Jesus teaching ? Because the scripture did not order us to celebrate Jesus Christ birthday, I am not allow to celebrate our Father glory day ? I considered Jesus coming to earth in flesh as one of God glory days. God don't required us to celebrate but as God children, surely we can celebrate for His glory and His name.

You're right teg33. It does not violate any commandment to celebrate a day to remember Christ's birth. That's what Colossians 2:16-17 is all about - don't let anyone dictate to you if your heart attitude of glorifying God in spirit and in truth is there.

There are many "grey areas" of life. That's why we have Romans 14, 1 Corinthians 8 and 10!

With all that said, it's too early to talk about Christmas. :-))

God bless,
Bill

[TomMcC]

Originally Posted by teg33

I don't get it why it celebrate Jesus Christ birthday violate 2nd commandment if we celebrate it within Jesus teaching ? Because the scripture did not order us to celebrate Jesus Christ birthday, I am not allow to celebrate our Father glory day ? I considered Jesus coming to earth in flesh as one of God glory days. God don't required us to celebrate but as God children, surely we can celebrate for His glory and His name.

On the other hand, I see your point. You want to stated anything not written or ordered in scripture are morally wrong at least and potentially sins. You want to say that we have to followed scripture up to each iota.
Okay, I understand your position and I'm not going to argue. We just have to be agree to disagree. In my opinion, ones can not just followed every words and iota in scripture without understanding the heart of each God words. Most likely you will disagree with my point which is fine.

I hope you read my other posts. As one ancient pastor said......worship is the most important thing we do before God. The reason it violates the 2nd commandment is that the 1st controls who we worship and the 2nd controls how we worship. It's my contention that the special holy day "Christmas" is a violation of "how" we worship God. To violate either is idolatry. The reason I brought this whole thing up is that the church, in most cases, has decided that men may worship God as they please. God says differently in His word. The principle is the same in both the OT and NT. We should only worship God in a way that He has authorized. That authorization can take the form of a direct command, an approved apostolic example, or good and necessary consequences. Teg, sinful men don't have a clue as to what constitutes proper worship of a holy God, unless God tells us. Please read Deut 12 and Matt 15 to see that this principle (not the particulars) is the same in both testaments. Once the foundational principle is understood, then we can ask ourselves "is Christmas proper worship".

[TomMcC]

And don't let people beguile you with un-biblical interpretations of Roman 14 or 15. Those scriptures are not talking about "yeah, do whatever you want in worship", they are speaking about the relationship between tender hearted believing Jews who were having trouble leaving the old ways in the transitional period between the OT and NT, and gentile believers who never had a relationship to OT ceremonies, and festivals days. I can go into that in more detail later. And there has never been "grey" areas concerning worship, God has spoken plainly. There has been progressive revelation, with more and more truth revealed, but even Abel and Cain understood the principles and particulars of worship as revealed by God at their time.

And it's never too early or late to speak of proper worship.

[teg33]

Originally Posted by TomMcC

I hope you read my other posts. As one ancient pastor said......worship is the most important thing we do before God. The reason it violates the 2nd commandment is that the 1st controls who we worship and the 2nd controls how we worship. It's my contention that the special holy day "Christmas" is a violation of "how" we worship God. To violate either is idolatry. The reason I brought this whole thing up is that the church, in most cases, has decided that men may worship God as they please. God says differently in His word. The principle is the same in both the OT and NT. We should only worship God in a way that He has authorized. That authorization can take the form of a direct command, an approved apostolic example, or good and necessary consequences. Teg, sinful men don't have a clue as to what constitutes proper worship of a holy God, unless God tells us. Please read Deut 12 and Matt 15 to see that this principle (not the particulars) is the same in both testaments. Once the foundational principle is understood, then we can ask ourselves "is Christmas proper worship".

When we celebrate "Christmas", we celebrate Jesus Christ, our God. How it violate 1st commandment ? We dont serve other "gods" when we celebrate Christmas. Are you saying Jesus Christ is not God, the one God of Father, Son and Holy Spirit? What is 1st commandment to you ?

Second commandment is about idol image. When we celebrate Christmas, we celebrate Jesus Christ birthday by doing it within Jesus teaching. There's no need of fancy candle, fancy pictures, statues etc.

The most important things we need to do in front of God is not how we worshipped. Most important are to love your God with all your heart, soul and strength. Also to love and respect other human beings as you love and respect yours. God doesn't need you worship, pray, praise and how you worship if you don't follow these two important laws. Jesus teaching based on these laws.

Don't be like Pharisees and Sadducees, who put so much emphasis on taurah and mosses laws, thinking following it to iota will save them.

What most important is not how you worship but your heart following two important laws I mentioned above. It's your soul and heart God is looking for, not how you worship Him. If you ignore these two important laws, everything you do means nothing and will not save you at all.

Anyway I think I blabbering too much and might hurt your feeling and pride, I sincerely apologize

[POLICESTATE]

Christmas is fine. Christ Mass is fine. It's a celebration of the greatest gift that God has given us: His Son! God comes down to us in human flesh to die for our sins! This is cause for joyous celebration.

One of the problems with Modern American Evangelicalism is they have abandoned traditional Christian symbols and liturgies as started in the early church and replaced them with modern marketing campaigns in an effort to grow their churches. They have forgotten that it is Christ that builds His church, he does this through the faithful preaching of Law & Gospel, and through the sacraments of Holy Baptism and The Lord's Supper, and there is every reason to celebrate the joy that The Lord brings to us at Christmas and Easter when Christ rose again from the grave!

[TomMcC]

Originally Posted by POLICESTATE

Christmas is fine. Christ Mass is fine. It's a celebration of the greatest gift that God has given us: His Son! God comes down to us in human flesh to die for our sins! This is cause for joyous celebration.

One of the problems with Modern American Evangelicalism is they have abandoned traditional Christian symbols and liturgies as started in the early church and replaced them with modern marketing campaigns in an effort to grow their churches. They have forgotten that it is Christ that builds His church, he does this through the faithful preaching of Law & Gospel, and through the sacraments of Holy Baptism and The Lord's Supper, and there is every reason to celebrate the joy that The Lord brings to us at Christmas and Easter when Christ rose again from the grave!

Well, again you're making an assertion that Christmas is just dandy without referencing the scriptures. I have referenced the scriptures. And to say that the mass is ok is beyond belief. You being a Lutheran should know that Luther considered the mass an idolatrous abomination, with good reason.

It's modern evangelicalism that has more and more rejected the good old path of the Protestant Reformations and put itself on the path back to Rome.

AND AGAIN the question: Has God authorized the special holy day "Christmas" and how would you know?

[TomMcC]

Originally Posted by teg33

When we celebrate "Christmas", we celebrate Jesus Christ, our God. How it violate 1st commandment ? We dont serve other "gods" when we celebrate Christmas. Are you saying Jesus Christ is not God, the one God of Father, Son and Holy Spirit? What is 1st commandment to you ?

Second commandment is about idol image. When we celebrate Christmas, we celebrate Jesus Christ birthday by doing it within Jesus teaching. There's no need of fancy candle, fancy pictures, statues etc.

The most important things we need to do in front of God is not how we worshipped. Most important are to love your God with all your heart, soul and strength. Also to love and respect other human beings as you love and respect yours. God doesn't need you worship, pray, praise and how you worship if you don't follow these two important laws. Jesus teaching based on these laws.

Don't be like Pharisees and Sadducees, who put so much emphasis on taurah and mosses laws, thinking following it to iota will save them.

What most important is not how you worship but your heart following two important laws I mentioned above. It's your soul and heart God is looking for, not how you worship Him. If you ignore these two important laws, everything you do means nothing and will not save you at all.

Anyway I think I blabbering too much and might hurt your feeling and pride, I sincerely apologize

I didn't say "Christmas" violated the 1st commandment. I said it violated the 2nd, which is the commandment that controls "how" we worship God. Did you bother to read the two chapters of scriptures I gave? Both of those chapters tell us it is God who determines what is right worship and that we are not to invent ways of worship....that is.... adding or taking away from God's word or worshiping God according to the commandments of Men. If you won't read then there is no hope of knowing.

And how do we love God? By keeping His commandments. Where has God commanded the special holy day "Christmas"? Where do we see the apostles celebrating the special holy day "Christmas"? Where do we see that we should take the abominable "Mass" and try to rehabilitate it and then ape the RCC?

And where did I say that keeping the law can save? It's not so much insulting to me that you say that about me, but it makes me pity you that you can't comprehend pretty simple biblical injunctions. Keep in mind that Jesus Himself was the "ultimate" law keeper, keeping it perfectly. The problem with the Pharisees and the Sadducees was that they changed the law into a way of salvation and really didn't keep it the way it should have been kept.

If you sinned against me then repent and apologize. If you didn't sin against me then don't apologize. But since you went ahead and wrote what you wrote, seeming to stand by what you wrote, then save the fake apology.

[TomMcC]

Again the simple question in a different way: Is the special holy day "Christmas" the commandment of God or the commandment of men?

[teg33]

Originally Posted by TomMcC

I didn't say "Christmas" violated the 1st commandment. I said it violated the 2nd, which is the commandment that controls "how" we worship God. Did you bother to read the two chapters of scriptures I gave? Both of those chapters tell us it is God who determines what is right worship and that we are not to invent ways of worship....that is.... adding or taking away from God's word or worshiping God according to the commandments of Men. If you won't read then there is no hope of knowing.

And how do we love God? By keeping His commandments. Where has God commanded the special holy day "Christmas"? Where do we see the apostles celebrating the special holy day "Christmas"? Where do we see that we should take the abominable "Mass" and try to rehabilitate it and then ape the RCC?

And where did I say that keeping the law can save? It's not so much insulting to me that you say that about me, but it makes me pity you that you can't comprehend pretty simple biblical injunctions. Keep in mind that Jesus Himself was the "ultimate" law keeper, keeping it perfectly. The problem with the Pharisees and the Sadducees was that they changed the law into a way of salvation and really didn't keep it the way it should have been kept.

If you sinned against me then repent and apologize. If you didn't sin against me then don't apologize. But since you went ahead and wrote what you wrote, seeming to stand by what you wrote, then save the fake apology.

Let me tell you, a stinky uneducated homeless person who never read scripture nor understand a single words in the Bible or any way to worship but fully embrace and love God and follow two important laws in his heart will please God than a pastor who knew every words and dots in every scriptures, always following all of 10 commandments and perfectly knew how to worship but yet only half heartly loving God.

By following fully these two important laws set by God, you don't need to know scripture, you do not need to know 10 commandments, you don't need to know any biblical knowledge and you don't need to know how to worship, why to worship.

Loving God is in your heart. Just because following 10 commandments, following every sentence of bible you think it's enough for God, that you love God. You can live exactly as Bible, pastor, bishop etc say, you went to church every day but if you only half heartedly loving God, you don't love and respect other human beings as you love and respect yours, your devotion are lips only and means nothing in front of God.

How to love God with all your soul, all your heart and all your strength? By totally surrendering your soul and body to God without any questions and doubts and fully open your heart to God. He will then converse to you directly and you will knew Him without the need of any biblical knowledge. He will guide you directly without the need of any scriptures, the same ways He guide all of his messengers.

Yes I have sinned against you by hurting your pride and feeling and I apologize for it however I have to say what God gave to me and instruct me to spread. I rather sinned against human than sinned against our Father.

I knew you will still dissatisfied, nothing much I can do. I'll take my leave in peace from this discussion

[TomMcC]

Originally Posted by teg33

Let me tell you, a stinky uneducated homeless person who never read scripture nor understand a single words in the Bible or any way to worship but fully embrace and love God and follow two important laws in his heart will please God than a pastor who knew every words and dots in every scriptures, always following all of 10 commandments and perfectly knew how to worship but yet only half heartly loving God.

By following fully these two important laws set by God, you don't need to know scripture, you do not need to know 10 commandments, you don't need to know any biblical knowledge and you don't need to know how to worship, why to worship.

Loving God is in your heart. Just because following 10 commandments, following every sentence of bible you think it's enough for God. You can live exactly as Bible, pastor, bishop etc say, you went to church every but if only half heartedly loving God, you don't love and respect other human beings as you love and respect yours, your devotion are lips only and means nothing in front of God.

Yes I have sinned against you by hurting your pride and feeling and I apologize for it however I have to say what God gave to me and instruct me to spread. I rather sinned against human than sinned against our Father.

I knew you will still dissatisfied, nothing much I can do. I'll take my leave in peace from this discussion

Ok, Teg, I get it......we don't need no stinkin' Bible.

[TomMcC]

Originally Posted by TomMcC

Ok, Teg, I get it......we don't need no stinkin' Bible.

You didn't hurt my pride, Teg, I'm used to ridiculous and bad arguments from religious people. I've been in a small minority of a particular set of believers for a long time, it is what it is.

[TomMcC]

So far I've seen arguments that say: Christmas is good because I like it, my motives are good, so Christmas is good, who cares what the bible says, the mass is good, we can do what we want in worship, it doesn't matter how we worship, I'm like the Pharisees, Romans 14 says I can do holy days invented by the RCC.

In another thread that talked about eschatology, I argued that the great Whore of Revelation was the RCC. And the whore has daughters. Aping the worship principles of the RCC just shows that evangelicalism is in fact at minimum following in her footsteps. Like I said before, you're either on the road to the next reformation or you're on the road back to Rome.

[colossians323]

Originally Posted by glockman19

I believe in god. One God.

Again, without Judaism there is NO Christianity or Catholicism.

The first 5 books of your bible were written some 1,200-1,400 years before Jesus was alive and nearly 1,500 years before Man's addition. Exodus was written in 1512 B.C.E

The Old Testament has always been central to the life of the Christian church. Bible scholar N.T. Wright says "Jesus himself was profoundly shaped by the scriptures." He adds that the earliest Christians also searched those same Hebrew scriptures in their effort to understand the earthly life of Jesus. They regarded the "holy writings" of the Israelites as necessary and instructive for the Christian, as seen from Paul's words to Timothy (2 Timothy 3:15), and as pointing to the Messiah, and as having reached a climactic fulfillment in Jesus himself, generating the "new covenant" prophesied by Jeremiah.

The difference between our belief's is...You believe Jesus was the Messiah, and I believe the Messiah has yet to come.

Either way...Jesus is NOT god...There is only one God. There can't be two.

It appears we have a huge misunderstanding of One God. the word Elohim should enlighten us a little

B're**** 1:1

The name Elohim is unique to Hebraic thinking: it occurs only in Hebrew and in no other ancient Semitic language. The masculine plural ending does not mean “gods” when referring to the true God of Israel, since the name is mainly used with singular verb forms and with adjectives and pronouns in the singular (e.g., see Gen. 1:26). However, considering the Hashalush HaKadosh (Trinity), the form indeed allows for the plurality within the Godhead.

as well as the Hebrew shema There is a reason, it is worded as

Sh'ma Yisra'eil Adonai Eloheinu Adonai echad.
Hear, Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One.

Even our pass over traditions point towards the messiah

The festival of the Passover has been celebrated by Jews for thousands of years. It is the retelling of the great story of how God redeemed the Jewish nation from enslavement in Egypt.1 The celebration itself was given to the Jews while they were still in Egypt.2 The original celebration centered around the Passover lamb, which was sacrificed and its blood put over the doorposts as a sign of faith, so that the Lord passed over the houses of the Jews during the last plague poured out on the Egyptians - the killing of every firstborn.3 To a large degree, the Passover lamb has been eliminated from the Passover festival (with the only remnant being the roasted lamb shank bone).4 The New Testament says that Jesus is our sacrificial Lamb.5 The Passover lamb was to be a "male without defect,"6 which is the same description given to Jesus.7 In addition, when the lamb was roasted and eaten, none of its bones were to be broken.8 This fact was also prophesized for the Messiah, whose bones were not to be broken.9 It was customary during crucifixion to break the leg bones of the person after a few hours in order to hasten their death. The only way a person could breathe when hanging on a cross was to push up with his legs, which was very exhausting. By breaking the legs, death followed soon by asphyxiation. However, in the case of Jesus, they broke the legs of the other two men, but did not break His, since He was already dead.10
Passover symbolism

Much of the symbolism of Jesus' last Passover week is lost to us because we are unaware of the customs of the time. For example, Jesus came into the city of Jerusalem five days before the lamb was killed in the temple as the Passover sacrifice for the sins of the people of Israel. Five days before the lamb was to be sacrificed, it was chosen. Therefore, Jesus entered Jerusalem on lamb selection day as the lamb of God.11 The people did not understand the significance of this, since they greeted Him with palm branches12 and hailed Him as King,13 shouting "Hosanna,"14 which means "save us." However, they were not looking for a spiritual Savior, but a political savior. Palm branches were a symbol of freedom and defiance, since Simon Maccabeus had entered Jerusalem with that symbolism.15 Jesus' reaction was to weep,16 since He realized that they did not understand the Messiah's purpose in coming.
Passover sacrifice

The day Jesus was crucified was the day of the Passover celebration and the day that the Passover lamb was to be sacrificed. For the previous 1,200 years, the priest would blow the shophar (ram's horn) at 3:00 p.m. - the moment the lamb was sacrificed, and all the people would pause to contemplate the sacrifice for sins on behalf of the people of Israel. At 3:00,17 when Jesus was being crucified, He said, "It is finished"18 - at the moment that the Passover lamb was sacrificed and the shophar was blown from the Temple. The sacrifice of the lamb of God was fulfilled at the hour that the symbolic animal sacrifice usually took place. At the same time, the veil of the Temple (a three-inch thick, several story high cloth that demarked the Holy of Holies19) tore from top to bottom20 - representing a removal of the separation between God and man. Fifty days later, on the anniversary of the giving of the law (Pentecost), God left the earthly temple to inhabit those who call on the name of Jesus through His Holy Spirit.21
Burial

The festival of unleavened bread began Friday evening (at sunset). As part of the festival, the Jews would take some of the grain - the "first fruits" of their harvest - to the Temple to offer as a sacrifice. In so doing, they were offering God all they had and trusting Him to proved the rest of the harvest. It was at this point that Jesus was buried - planted in the ground - as He said right before His death.22 Paul refers to Jesus as the first fruits of those raised from the dead in 1 Corinthians.23 As such, Jesus represents the fulfillment of God's promise to provide the rest of the harvest - resurrection of those who follow the Messiah.
Resurrection

matzah - striped and piercedChristian symbolism in the Passover occurs early in the Seder (the Passover dinner). Three matzahs are put together (representing the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). The middle matzah is broken,24 wrapped in a white cloth, and hidden, representing the death and burial of Jesus.25 The matzah itself is designed to represent Jesus, since it is striped and pierced, which was prophesized by Isaiah, 26 David,27 and Zechariah.28 Following the Seder meal, the "buried" matzah is "resurrected," which was foretold in the prophecies of David.29
Christian communion

It was during a Passover seder30 that Jesus proclaimed that the meal represented Himself and that He was instituting the New Covenant, which was foretold by Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and Isaiah.31 The celebration of this covenant has become the ordinance of communion in the Christian Church. At the end of the meal, Jesus took the unleavened bread, broke it, and said that it represented His body.32 Then He took the cup of wine, which would have been the third cup of the Seder - the cup of redemption. He said that it was the new covenant in His blood "poured out for you."33 It is through the sacrificial death and resurrection of Jesus Christ that we are declared clean before God, allowing those of us who choose to accept the pardon, to commune with Him - both now and forevermore through the eternal life He offers.

Coincident? I think not

Jesus fulfilled the messianic prophecies in the Torah. It had to be either an evil genius of a Rabbi who studied this and wrote the new testament, or Jesus really did answer all these prophesies. As a Jew, if you are not familiar with the messianic prophecies, here is a good place to start

Messianic Prophecies

[WASR10]

I'm sorry to be so late to the discussion. I have been out of commission and have not been following the forum. I have not yet taken the time to read the entire thread, but I will. My contention is this:

I follow a religion based on the Bible, and the Bible only. Nowhere in the Bible, more specifically in the New Testament (the documentation of the practices of the Christian church) is the birth of Christ celebrated on a specific day. I am sure His birth is routinely remembered in the course of normal weekly worship, but a single day set aside is not present. Therefore, I must conclude Christmas is not a 'Christian religion' holiday.

With that in mind, a day set aside for any given society to glorify the Son and His miraculous birth is not a bad thing. I spend Christmas not in church (except it be the First Day) but with family and friends, remembering the birth of our savior and glorifying His name. I encourage others to do also. Not a function of the church body, but a great reminder for the people of the church.

My answer would be similar for Easter.

[POLICESTATE]

Originally Posted by teg33

Let me tell you, a stinky uneducated homeless person who never read scripture nor understand a single words in the Bible or any way to worship but fully embrace and love God and follow two important laws in his heart will please God than a pastor who knew every words and dots in every scriptures, always following all of 10 commandments and perfectly knew how to worship but yet only half heartly loving God.

By following fully these two important laws set by God, you don't need to know scripture, you do not need to know 10 commandments, you don't need to know any biblical knowledge and you don't need to know how to worship, why to worship.

Loving God is in your heart. Just because following 10 commandments, following every sentence of bible you think it's enough for God, that you love God. You can live exactly as Bible, pastor, bishop etc say, you went to church every day but if you only half heartedly loving God, you don't love and respect other human beings as you love and respect yours, your devotion are lips only and means nothing in front of God.

How to love God with all your soul, all your heart and all your strength? By totally surrendering your soul and body to God without any questions and doubts and fully open your heart to God. He will then converse to you directly and you will knew Him without the need of any biblical knowledge. He will guide you directly without the need of any scriptures, the same ways He guide all of his messengers.

Without hearing God's Word there will be no faith. With no faith there is no salvation and no regeneration. Without this there is no ability to actually do good works (loving God and loving your neighbor) as we are all born dead in trespasses and sin. It is only through the hearing of God's Word that we might believe in the Gospel and receive eternal life and through the regeneration and on-going sanctification work of the Holy Spirit that we are able to actually love God and love our neighbor.

Now I understand that there are denominations that teach differently on this, but that is not what the Bible teaches, and since the Bible is God's Word then it is the sole authority on all matters spiritual.

I suggest reading Romans, Ephesians, and John's Gospel for better understanding.

I'm not even going to address your comment that we do not need to know scripture. Scripture does not say that at all, in fact Scripture says that "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness" in 2 Timothy.

I was raised Presbyterian, I fell away for several years, became a Charismatic for several years, became more "mainstream" evangelical after that and finally through the grace of God became Confessional Lutheran because I came to recognize that most of the modern church movements are in error at least and even heretical and through trying to discern which were good and which were not I stumbled onto Lutheranism and their doctrine is sound when examined against scripture.

Which reminds me, if we do not know scripture, how are we to keep ourselves from being blown about by the wind with every new thing? Answer: we can't.

Where are you getting your teachings on scripture and Christianity from if not from Scripture?

[colossians323]

Originally Posted by POLICESTATE

Without hearing God's Word there will be no faith. With no faith there is no salvation and no regeneration. Without this there is no ability to actually do good works (loving God and loving your neighbor) as we are all born dead in trespasses and sin. It is only through the hearing of God's Word that we might believe in the Gospel and receive eternal life and through the regeneration and on-going sanctification work of the Holy Spirit that we are able to actually love God and love our neighbor.

Now I understand that there are denominations that teach differently on this, but that is not what the Bible teaches, and since the Bible is God's Word then it is the sole authority on all matters spiritual.

I suggest reading Romans, Ephesians, and John's Gospel for better understanding.

I'm not even going to address your comment that we do not need to know scripture. Scripture does not say that at all, in fact Scripture says that "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness" in 2 Timothy.

I was raised Presbyterian, I fell away for several years, became a Charismatic for several years, became more "mainstream" evangelical after that and finally through the grace of God became Confessional Lutheran because I came to recognize that most of the modern church movements are in error at least and even heretical and through trying to discern which were good and which were not I stumbled onto Lutheranism and their doctrine is sound when examined against scripture.

Which reminds me, if we do not know scripture, how are we to keep ourselves from being blown about by the wind with every new thing? Answer: we can't.

Where are you getting your teachings on scripture and Christianity from?

Romans 1 relevant passage bolded. Not to argue, just saying, no one can say they did not have Gods word so they didn't have a chance to be saved.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

[POLICESTATE]

Originally Posted by TomMcC

Again the simple question in a different way: Is the special holy day "Christmas" the commandment of God or the commandment of men?

Romans 14:1-12 has your answer.

Basically there is no day that is more holy than another. In fact every day we are to serve and honor The Lord. So The Bible does not label any specific day of the year as a feast or other day that is special for Christians as it was for the Israelites under the Mosaic Covenant.

However, you will find that there is no prohibition for setting aside this or that day for celebration or fellowship or corporate worship. Most churches settled on Sunday as being a good day for weekly worship together as a church; even so many churches will have a service during the week as well to accommodate those who cannot make it on Sundays. Are those that worship on Sunday more holy than those that worship on a Wednesday evening? I think Romans 14 has your answer.

BTW, you can't make yourself more holy, sanctification is not our work, it is God's work.

But to answer your initial question: Yes Christmas is Christian. So is Easter, so are all those things where we bring glory and honor to The Lord. Christian symbols, Christian music, Christian traditions; none of these things are above God's Word, so they are fine so long as they do not contradict what The Bible teaches us.

[M1NM]

The Christian holidays are not Christian at all. They are days the Pagans celebrated just repurposed to meet the Christan narrative.

[POLICESTATE]

Originally Posted by colossians323

Romans 1 relevant passage bolded. Not to argue, just saying, no one can say they did not have Gods word so they didn't have a chance to be saved.

Actually you raise a good point, yet there is not a single example of anyone being saved without hearing the Gospel. After all, it says a little further in Romans 3 that ALL have fallen, that no one seeks after God.

I have heard some say that this contradicts Romans 1, however even though the evidence of God and his goodness is all around us, the fact that we are born dead in trespasses and sin blinds us and enslaves us to sin and makes us incapable of choosing to believe.

Romans 1 shows us that there are none who will have an excuse for rebelling against God by pleading ignorance. This further shows us that it is all God's work in our salvation, even in our election. Although I do not subscribe to Calvinist doctrines of predestination (though that is what I was raised on).

Granted I am looking at this from the Lutheran perspective.

Hope all this came out right, not trying to argue with you, I respect your posts on faith but I'm sure we have some minor differences although not on the essentials of the faith.

[TrailerparkTrash]

Originally Posted by TomMcC

Oh I disagree TT. I think God in the Bible has quite a bit to say about what is condoned or not condoned in the worship of God. How about we start with a Scripture.......Matt 15:9. It's not your position that we can do anything we want and call it worship is it?

I think you're not reading the context of the passage correctly .......once again.

Chapter 15 is about Clean and Unclean traditions and "ritual purity" of the elders. More specifically, it was the meticulous rules and regulations governing daily life of all the people, when it came to Christ's disciples eating food with "unclean hands." (Compare the same story of Matt 15:9 to Mark chapter 7.)

Your passage was about the Pharisees who we're not primarily concerned with hygiene but with ritual and ceremonial observances instituted to maintain Jewish distinctiveness over against Gentile culture. Jesus basically accused the Pharisees of cloaking evil intentions with pleasing words and called them all "hypocrites."

The Pharisees believed that their spoken tradition was equally authoritative with the written Torah and that oral tradition was necessary on how to fulfill God's requirements. The Pharisees were drowned with their own spoken word versus the law of the Torah (from God) and so Jesus called them out on it.

These few passages in both Matthew 15 and Mark 7 have absolutely nothing to do with people celebrating Christmas with the sole intent of honoring the birth of Jesus Christ. Nor do the scriptures forbid anyone from celebrating our Lord's birthday.

[POLICESTATE]

Originally Posted by M1NM

The Christian holidays are not Christian at all. They are days the Pagans celebrated just repurposed to meet the Christan narrative.

No, they are not.

Educate yourself: http://steadfastlutherans.org/2012/1...ies-christmas/

The holidays are not the point by the way, the holidays (like the symbols and other Christian activities) are meant to point to Christ. Everything is to the Glory of God alone!

Sola Scriptura, Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, Solus Christos, Soli Deo gloria.

There are meanings to these words that are rooted right into the Gospel, this is why they are important. It is through by Grace alone we are saved, by Faith alone in Christ alone, all to the glory of God alone as taught through Scripture alone.

These words are not the object of worship, they merely point us to Christ.

[TrailerparkTrash]

Originally Posted by POLICESTATE

Actually you raise a good point, yet there is not a single example of anyone being saved without hearing the Gospel. After all, it says a little further in Romans 3 that ALL have fallen, that no one seeks after God.

Although I do not subscribe to Calvinist doctrines of predestination (though that is what I was raised on).

Granted I am looking at this from the Lutheran perspective.

I think the Lutheran perspective (which is what I was raised on) is also flawed a bit with the interpretation of Romans 3:11. Both calvinists and some Lutherans seem to get confused and narrow minded with that one single verse, believing that we humans are not given the gift of volition from God, to choose or reject Jesus as out personal Savior.

Whereas the Bible and Jesus alone are absolutely crystal clear that one MUST choose Christ, in order to be saved by Christ.

There are countless passages that affirm what I just stated above. Many of the passages (in Red) are from Jesus' own words:

Rev 3:20 (KJV)
"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."

Matthew 7:7 (NIV)
"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.

Matthew 7:13-14 (NIV)
13- “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and ONLY A FEW FIND IT. (emphasis mine).

Matthew 14: 30-31(NIV)
30 But seeing the wind, he became frightened, and beginning to sink, he cried out, “Lord, save me!” 31-Immediately Jesus stretched out His hand and took hold of him, and said to him, "You of little faith, why did you doubt?”

(***Here, Peter lost faith in the Lord momentarily and began to sink in the water. Again, Peter was given a CHOICE; choose Jesus, or sink. What's it gonna be?).

Matthew 16:24-25 (NIV-1984)
Then Jesus said to his disciples, If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it.

Matthew 10:38-39 (NIV-1984)
and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39- Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

Luke 11:9-10 (NIV-1984)
"So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 10-For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened."

John 7:17 (NASB)
"If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself.

John 7:37-38 (NIV)
On the last and greatest day of the Feast, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink. 38-Whoever believes in me, as the scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him."

Revelation 22:17 (NIV)
The Spirit and the bride say, "come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let home come; and whoever wishes, let him take the fee gift of the water of life."

John 8:12 (NASB)
Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, "I am the Light of the world; he who FOLLOWS Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life."

Matthew 6:33 (NIV)
"But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well."

[POLICESTATE]

Originally Posted by TrailerparkTrash

I think the Lutheran perspective (which is what I was raised on) is also flawed a bit with the interpretation of Romans 3:11. Both calvinists and some Lutherans seem to get confused and narrow minded with that one single verse, believing that we humans are not given the gift of volition from God, to choose or reject Jesus as out personal Savior.

Whereas the Bible and Jesus alone are absolutely crystal clear that one MUST choose Christ, in order to be saved by Christ.

There are countless passages that affirm what I just stated above. Many of the passages (in Red) are from Jesus' own words:

Rev 3:20 (KJV)
"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."

Matthew 7:7 (NIV)
"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.

Matthew 7:13-14 (NIV)
13- “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and ONLY A FEW FIND IT. (emphasis mine).

Matthew 14: 30-31(NIV)
30 But seeing the wind, he became frightened, and beginning to sink, he cried out, “Lord, save me!” 31-Immediately Jesus stretched out His hand and took hold of him, and said to him, "You of little faith, why did you doubt?”

(***Here, Peter lost faith in the Lord momentarily and began to sink in the water. Again, Peter was given a CHOICE; choose Jesus, or sink. What's it gonna be?).

Matthew 16:24-25 (NIV-1984)
Then Jesus said to his disciples, If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it.

Matthew 10:38-39 (NIV-1984)
and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39- Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

Luke 11:9-10 (NIV-1984)
"So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 10-For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened."
No one answers a door that isn't getting knocked on. God decides which doors he's going to knock on and when. Now unlike my Calvinist brethren I do not believe in irresistible grace, so even when God "knocks" how many times do people simply ignore/reject? How do we know when God is knocking? When we hear the Gospel preached.

John 7:17 (NASB)
"If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself.
I don't believe I can do the will of someone I do not believe in the first place. Jesus is teaching people who believe in God (the Jews), however they do not recognize that Jesus is the Christ.

John 7:37-38 (NIV)
On the last and greatest day of the Feast, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink. 38-Whoever believes in me, as the scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him."
Again, without the belief that what Jesus says is true, why would anyone choose to partake in the Lord's Supper other than just to go through some motions or something?

Revelation 22:17 (NIV)
The Spirit and the bride say, "come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let home come; and whoever wishes, let him take the fee gift of the water of life."
God comes to us through His Word, without belief in the Word there is no receiving of anything, if you don't believe then there is no efficacy.

John 8:12 (NASB)
Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, "I am the Light of the world; he who FOLLOWS Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life."
Again, can't follow something you don't believe in, although some may go through the motions but still lack the belief.

Matthew 6:33 (NIV)
"But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well."
Gotta believe in something to seek it, sure there is always possibility, but possibility is not belief.

I hear ya, and my general response to this is: How can one choose Christ without first believing in Christ? Choosing to follow and serve come after belief.

After we are saved we need to remain faithful to him, pick up our cross daily, etc... I'll use one passage:

John 1:9-13

The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. He came to his own,b and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

I do not see a contradiction here, I do see that there is a certain amount of mystery that we are not going to understand this side of eternity and I'm okay with that. I responded to some of your Bible passages in bold.

It's clear in Scripture that God is the one who gives us the faith to believe in the Gospel, it is all his work, however we are resistant to him and it is only through His Grace and Mercy that we get the faith to believe in something that is foolishness to those who are perishing.

I find all of this to be in harmony, after all, if you do not believe that you are a sinner in need of God's grace then... unsaved.

Now I know a lot of people that believe in Christ crucified for the forgiveness of their sins but also think they "made a decision for Christ" and I would not say they are unsaved. The point is that they believe the Gospel (well at least I hope they do and aren't just saying so) and if they're a little mixed up on the order or salvation naturally leading to following Christ I don't think they are going to end up damned for that.

However I take another view on those who Teach & Preach "Decisional Theology", also known as Pelagianism.

Man, I was in a crazy charismatic service when I was saved. It wasn't because of all the craziness (wailing, shouting, tongues) around me at the time, God reached down in his mercy and gave me the saving faith. God drew me to him some years before, put people in my life that preached the Gospel here and there, and just like the Bible says, faith came through hearing the Word.

Now it took some years of learning and discernment before I was able to separate the wheat from the chaff at those churches, and ultimately out of those churches and oddly enough: into Confessional Lutheranism. True, it is flawed as well like all human institutions, but the fundamental doctrine is true to scripture (like many other churches) but there is more of an emphasis on sacraments as a visible means of grace. Hard to understand at first but makes perfect sense in light of Scripture.

Hey I can't stand the Romanists' magic spell of transubstantiation, but I do believe that Christ is present in, with and under the elements of the bread and wine. Because that is what I clearly read in Matt 26 starting at verse 26:
"This is my body," "This is my blood" and growing up Presbyterian the emphasis was always on the "do this in remembrance of me" which is great but they completely ignore what Christ says about what the bread and wine (not become) but in fact are.


BTW, Motorhead rocks \m/
I listen to metal too, which at times I'm a little conflicted about, I don't always like the lyrics but I can't help it if the music rocks!

[TrailerparkTrash]

Originally Posted by POLICESTATE

I hear ya, and my general response to this is: How can one choose Christ without first believing in Christ? Choosing to follow and serve come after belief.

After we are saved we need to remain faithful to him, pick up our cross daily, etc... I'll use one passage:

John 1:9-13



I do not see a contradiction here, I do see that there is a certain amount of mystery that we are not going to understand this side of eternity and I'm okay with that. I responded to some of your Bible passages in bold.

It's clear in Scripture that God is the one who gives us the faith to believe in the Gospel, it is all his work, however we are resistant to him and it is only through His Grace and Mercy that we get the faith to believe in something that is foolishness to those who are perishing.

I find all of this to be in harmony, after all, if you do not believe that you are a sinner in need of God's grace then... unsaved.

Now I know a lot of people that believe in Christ crucified for the forgiveness of their sins but also think they "made a decision for Christ" and I would not say they are unsaved. The point is that they believe the Gospel (well at least I hope they do and aren't just saying so) and if they're a little mixed up on the order or salvation naturally leading to following Christ I don't think they are going to end up damned for that.

However I take another view on those who Teach & Preach "Decisional Theology", also known as Pelagianism.

Man, I was in a crazy charismatic service when I was saved. It wasn't because of all the craziness (wailing, shouting, tongues) around me at the time, God reached down in his mercy and gave me the saving faith. God drew me to him some years before, put people in my life that preached the Gospel here and there, and just like the Bible says, faith came through hearing the Word.

Now it took some years of learning and discernment before I was able to separate the wheat from the chaff at those churches, and ultimately out of those churches and oddly enough: into Confessional Lutheranism. True, it is flawed as well like all human institutions, but the fundamental doctrine is true to scripture (like many other churches) but there is more of an emphasis on sacraments as a visible means of grace. Hard to understand at first but makes perfect sense in light of Scripture.

Hey I can't stand the Romanists' magic spell of transubstantiation, but I do believe that Christ is present in, with and under the elements of the bread and wine. Because that is what I clearly read in Matt 26 starting at verse 26:
"This is my body," "This is my blood" and growing up Presbyterian the emphasis was always on the "do this in remembrance of me" which is great but they completely ignore what Christ says about what the bread and wine (not become) but in fact are.


BTW, Motorhead rocks \m/
I listen to metal too, which at times I'm a little conflicted about, I don't always like the lyrics but I can't help it if the music rocks!

I couldn't agree with you more. I believe we are on the same sheet of music regarding this entire topic.

As for Lemmy, yeah I get conflicted too. For example, while I love the rhythm and beat of some AC/DC, I can't listen to "Hell's Bells" in particular because of the lyrics referencing Satan and choosing the side of evil in another verse. It's so disappointing, but not surprising.

[WASR10]

Well... I've read through the thread. I have MUCH to comment on what has been posted. But, the conversation has moved beyond Christmas in to other subjects, albeit related, so I will refrain from digging up buried points and let my comment stand. Best of luck to you all.

[POLICESTATE]

Originally Posted by TrailerparkTrash

I couldn't agree with you more. I believe we are on the same sheet of music regarding this entire topic.

As for Lemmy, yeah I get conflicted too. For example, while I love the rhythm and beat of some AC/DC, I can't listen to "Hell's Bells" in particular because of the lyrics referencing Satan and choosing the side of evil in another verse. It's so disappointing, but not surprising.

That's true, it is both disappointing and expected. In some ways I find the glorification of sin in pop music to be worse than the satanism I see in metal. At least with the satanists they are open about who/what they believe in, but pop is more of the deceptive seduction into believing that it's all about you.

Definitely some songs I just can't listen to in metal. I do agree with AC/DC though, we are all on the Highway to Hell, at least until we are saved

[TomMcC]

Originally Posted by TrailerparkTrash

I think you're not reading the context of the passage correctly .......once again.

Chapter 15 is about Clean and Unclean traditions and "ritual purity" of the elders. More specifically, it was the meticulous rules and regulations governing daily life of all the people, when it came to Christ's disciples eating food with "unclean hands." (Compare the same story of Matt 15:9 to Mark chapter 7.)

Your passage was about the Pharisees who we're not primarily concerned with hygiene but with ritual and ceremonial observances instituted to maintain Jewish distinctiveness over against Gentile culture. Jesus basically accused the Pharisees of cloaking evil intentions with pleasing words and called them all "hypocrites."

The Pharisees believed that their spoken tradition was equally authoritative with the written Torah and that oral tradition was necessary on how to fulfill God's requirements. The Pharisees were drowned with their own spoken word versus the law of the Torah (from God) and so Jesus called them out on it.

These few passages in both Matthew 15 and Mark 7 have absolutely nothing to do with people celebrating Christmas with the sole intent of honoring the birth of Jesus Christ. Nor do the scriptures forbid anyone from celebrating our Lord's birthday.

Actually your wrong, it is about worship. Verse 9 is the whole point of Christ's condemnation of the Pharisees. The Pharisees had invented a worship practice......hand washing, cup and pot washing etc. which God had not commanded. Jesus called that innovation the commandments of men, and worst of all, vain worship. They had negated true worship with their inventions. So it is today, the largest part of the church goes about inventing worship practices.....like a special holy day call "Christmas". Of course not all worship practices are inventions of fallen men, but authorized by God, like prayer, preaching, the right administration of the sacraments, the singing of psalms with melody in your heart.

And the telling comment is God doesn't "forbid it", the exact same worship operating principle of the RCC. I'm sure the Pope is delighted. With this principle applied there is absolutely no limit to what can be called worship, anything goes, and from the look of the church, it's going pretty much into the ditch.

[POLICESTATE]

Originally Posted by TomMcC

Well, again you're making an assertion that Christmas is just dandy without referencing the scriptures. I have referenced the scriptures. And to say that the mass is ok is beyond belief. You being a Lutheran should know that Luther considered the mass an idolatrous abomination, with good reason.

It's modern evangelicalism that has more and more rejected the good old path of the Protestant Reformations and put itself on the path back to Rome.

AND AGAIN the question: Has God authorized the special holy day "Christmas" and how would you know?

I should have been more clear, I was making a really lousy connection between "Christmas" as we call it and "Christ Mass" as it was once called. In no way did I want to be saying that the Romanist "Mass" is good. Quite the opposite, and I know well Luther's thoughts on the Romanist Mass and their idolatry of the saints, etc... and I too condemn those teachings of the Roman church.

So back to is Christmas okay? I see what you are saying, if it's not commanded or even authorized it's not allowed right? That is the way I'm understanding what you are saying. I would say that the celebration of Christmas on a particular day is not commanded, you are right. Not in Scripture, no argument there. However nor is individual persons or congregations for that matter prohibited from celebrating it on a particular day if they all choose to do so.

Romans 14:1-12 again. Even a bit beyond that down through to verse 23, the whole chapter. Sure it does not command keeping this or that day holy, but neither does it prohibit it either, in fact I would say it seems to say it's okay, it seems to be authorized, however there is a cavaet: that we not judge each other over the mere keeping of one day holier than another or not as the case may be.

If you don't like celebrating Christmas then don't, if you don't want to go to a church that does then go to a congregation that does not celebrate Christmas. There are a few out there. However the celebration of Christmas or even Easter are adiaphora. Just like whether you prefer organs in your service, or piano, or simply choral singing.

I would not say that the churches of the Protestant Reformation elevated any day at all into a "Special Holy Day" as you put it. I think that's reading a bit much into it there. Maybe some modern churches do, and I would also share your concern over that, but I don't see the Lutherans, the Presbyterians, the Anglicans, and so on making any special holy days of any sort. Or even holy days for that matter. Each day is supposed to be holy unto the Lord is it not? I have never heard in Presbyterian or Lutheran churches I've attended that Sunday is a holier day than another, never heard it taught by a pastor/elder/deacon. Sure I've heard a few people in the laity say such things BUT SO WHAT? Many church-goers are just sort of there you know? You know. We all know that. So yeah, my grandma saying "Sunday is a holy day and you should do this or that... blah blah" - she's wrong. She aint the pastor and she didn't know much about the Bible. Grew up Dutch Reformed that one so I don't know what to tell you, seemed pretty legalistic with Law-only preaching anyway to me.

So to your point, where does God authorize special holy days? Nowhere. How would we know? He would say so in the Bible. On this you and I agree, it just looks like you and I disagree on exactly what a special holy day looks like. Larry & Tiz Huck, they believe in special holy days, and they are heretics and Bible twisters for many other reasons as well, promoting Shemitahs and Jubilees for profit just being one of them, and relevant to this discussion as a clear example of creating a special holy day for Christians.

But I do not see bringing in a tree, some decorations, and preaching the advent of Christ into the world as part of proper Law & Gospel preaching creating a special holy day.

[POLICESTATE]

Originally Posted by TomMcC

Actually your wrong, it is about worship. Verse 9 is the whole point of Christ's condemnation of the Pharisees. The Pharisees had invented a worship practice......hand washing, cup and pot washing etc. which God had not commanded. Jesus called that innovation the commandments of men, and worst of all, vain worship. They had negated true worship with their inventions. So it is today, the largest part of the church goes about inventing worship practices.....like a special holy day call "Christmas". Of course not all worship practices are inventions of fallen men, but authorized by God, like prayer, preaching, the right administration of the sacraments, the singing of psalms with melody in your heart.

And the telling comment is God doesn't "forbid it", the exact same worship operating principle of the RCC. I'm sure the Pope is delighted. With this principle applied there is absolutely no limit to what can be called worship, anything goes, and from the look of the church, it's going pretty much into the ditch.

Actually the pharisees and their oral Torah (or Traditions of The Elders) created many practices that they taught WERE SIN NOT TO FOLLOW. It's not about the practice being worship or not, the Pharisees were trying to accuse Jesus of allowing his disciples to sin by not following the traditions of the elders and by making something sin that God had not made sin they were speaking presumptuously and sinning themselves by teaching the people that "God says you must do this or that" where God had not said that.

Really they were attempting to tell Jesus that because he did not teach his disciples and cause them to follow the Traditions of the Elders that he was a law-breaker himself. That is what they were trying to set him up for, and it blows up spectacularly in their face.

[TomMcC]

Originally Posted by POLICESTATE

I should have been more clear, I was making a really lousy connection between "Christmas" as we call it and "Christ Mass" as it was once called. In no way did I want to be saying that the Romanist "Mass" is good. Quite the opposite, and I know well Luther's thoughts on the Romanist Mass and their idolotry of the saints, etc...

So back to is Christmas okay? I see what you are saying, if it's not commanded it's not allowed right? That is the way I'm understanding what you are saying. I would say that the celebration of Christmas on a particular day is not commanded, you are right. Not in Scripture, no argument there. However nor is individual persons or congregations for that matter prohibited from celebrating it on a particular day if they all choose to do so.

Romans 14:1-12 again.

If you don't like celebrating Christmas then don't, if you don't want to go to a church that does then go to a congregation that does not celebrate Christmas. There are a few out there. However the celebration of Christmas or even Easter are adiaphora. Just like whether you prefer organs in your service, or piano, or simply choral singing.

I would not say that the churches of the Protestant Reformation elevated any day at all into a "Special Holy Day" as you put it. I think that's reading a bit much into it there. Maybe some modern churches do, and I would also share your concern over that, but I don't see the Lutherans, the Presbyterians, the Anglicans, and so on making any special holy days of any sort. Or even holy days for that matter. Each day is supposed to be holy unto the Lord is it not?

So to your point, where does God authorize special holy days? Nowhere. How would we know? He would say so in the Bible. On this you and I agree, it just looks like you and I disagree on exactly what a special holy day looks like. Larry & Tiz Huck, they believe in special holy days, and they are heretics and Bible twisters for many other reasons as well, promoting Shemitahs and Jubilees for profit just being one of them, and relevant to this discussion as a clear example of creating a special holy day for Christians.

But I do not see bringing in a tree, some decorations, and preaching the advent of Christ into the world as part of proper Law & Gospel preaching creating a special (or even normal) holy day.

I'm afraid I will have strenuously disagree with your interpretation of Roman 14. It has nothing to do with what should or is allowed in worship, at least not in the sense you are interpreting it. Romans 14 and 15 are one continuous teaching about how tender hearted believing Jews should be treated in the transitional period between the OT and NT. Jews (the weaker brothers) who had a hard time giving up the old ways. We know this by looking at 14:14, Paul speaking of clean and unclean things. This reference is about the Jews. The believing Jews still wanted to observe "days", days appointed by God by the way. This has nothing to do with inventing new days, that is "Christmas". The gentile believers were to bear with the weaker Jews. We can also see this bearing with the weaker brothers (Jews) when Paul had Titus, a gentile pastor, circumcised when dealing with believing Jews, and refusing to have Timothy (a gentile pastor) circumcised when dealing with unbelieving "Judaizers".

Thank you for your clarification on the mass.

[TomMcC]

Originally Posted by POLICESTATE

Actually the pharisees and their oral Torah (or Traditions of The Elders) created many practices that they taught WERE SIN NOT TO FOLLOW. It's not about the practice being worship or not, the Pharisees were trying to accuse Jesus of allowing his disciples to sin by not following the traditions of the elders and by making something sin that God had not made sin they were speaking presumptuously and sinning themselves by teaching the people that "God says you must do this or that" where God had not said that.

Really they were attempting to tell Jesus that because he did not teach his disciples and cause them to follow the Traditions of the Elders that he was a law-breaker himself. That is what they were trying to set him up for, and it blows up spectacularly in their face.

I don't disagree, but my argument still stands. The practices were condemned as the commandments of men......not being of God.

[POLICESTATE]

Originally Posted by TomMcC

I'm afraid I will have strenuously disagree with your interpretation of Roman 14. It has nothing to do with what should or is allowed in worship, at least not in the sense you are interpreting it. Romans 14 and 15 are one continuous teaching about how tender hearted believing Jews should be treated in the transitional period between the OT and NT. Jews (the weaker brothers) who had a hard time giving up the old ways. We know this by looking at 14:14, Paul speaking of clean and unclean things. This reference is about the Jews. The believing Jews still wanted to observe "days", days appointed by God by the way. This has nothing to do with inventing new days, that is "Christmas". The gentile believers were to bear with the weaker Jews. We can also see this bearing with the weaker brothers (Jews) when Paul had Titus, a gentile pastor, circumcised when dealing with believing Jews, and refusing to have Timothy (a gentile pastor) circumcised when dealing with unbelieving "Judaizers".

Thank you for your clarification on the mass.

Originally Posted by TomMcC

I don't disagree, but my argument still stands. The practices were condemned as the commandments of men......not being of God.

Okay let me put it this way:
When we talk about what is allowed or not allowed in worship, what specifically about Christmas, from your perspective, adds/changes/removes from worship in any way that is not allowed?

Where is there a church that commands people to celebrate Christmas? I don't see this, but I certainly don't discount that this exists in places.

[TomMcC]

Originally Posted by POLICESTATE

Okay let me put it this way:
When we talk about what is allowed or not allowed in worship, what specifically about Christmas, from your perspective, adds/changes/removes from worship in any way that is not allowed?

Where is there a church that commands people to celebrate Christmas? I don't see this, but I certainly don't discount that this exists in places.

If you notice, I haven't spoken about any of the particulars of Christmas. I am arguing that it violates the fundamental principle related to who controls how we worship.....God or man. The invention of Christmas violates this principle. It's doubly horrible that the Popes invented it, and then talked evangelicals into it. God told the Israelites exactly what constituted true worship, and told them not to deviate from His word. The principle hasn't changed in the NT, it continues on. There doesn't have to be an evangelical church commanding it, like Rome does, it's enough that Christians practice it and call it legitimate worship.

[POLICESTATE]

Originally Posted by TomMcC

If you notice, I haven't spoken about any of the particulars of Christmas. I am arguing that it violates the fundamental principle related to who controls how we worship.....God or man. The invention of Christmas violates this principle. It's doubly horrible that the Popes invented it, and then talked evangelicals into it. God told the Israelites exactly what constituted true worship, and told them not to deviate from His word. The principle hasn't changed in the NT, it continues on. There doesn't have to be an evangelical church commanding it, like Rome does, it's enough that Christians practice it and call it legitimate worship.

How is worship on Christmas different from worship on any other day? It's not like we are worshiping someone other than The Lord. I really do not see that anything is different other than the colors in the church, the Hymns are more about the birth of Christ but still true to Scripture, Christ coming into the world, to die for our sins in this time of the year, much like in the Easter season many hymns are about the resurrection, this is something we talk about after all... everything is Christ-centered.

Something is so different for you that you see Christmas as changing worship and I just don't see it. Ah well, we're not going to agree on everything.

[colossians323]

Originally Posted by TomMcC

Actually your wrong, it is about worship. Verse 9 is the whole point of Christ's condemnation of the Pharisees. The Pharisees had invented a worship practice......hand washing, cup and pot washing etc. which God had not commanded. Jesus called that innovation the commandments of men, and worst of all, vain worship. They had negated true worship with their inventions. So it is today, the largest part of the church goes about inventing worship practices.....like a special holy day call "Christmas". Of course not all worship practices are inventions of fallen men, but authorized by God, like prayer, preaching, the right administration of the sacraments, the singing of psalms with melody in your heart.

And the telling comment is God doesn't "forbid it", the exact same worship operating principle of the RCC. I'm sure the Pope is delighted. With this principle applied there is absolutely no limit to what can be called worship, anything goes, and from the look of the church, it's going pretty much into the ditch.

Here, I think you are taking a little liberty. Jesus was more concerned that they were worshiping rules and not God. Why is it the religious leaders at the time could not see the prophecy unfolding before their eyes? There love of the rules and being able to judge people for not following the rules blinded them.
The lived by their self piety and religiosity, forgetting what mercy and grace was, even though they had Gods word.

What is the greatest commandment (according to Jesus)
What is the second?

The whole bible can be summed up in these two commandments, but we get so hung up on "you haven't been baptized the right way" " you aren't eating the right foods" "You shouldn't ever drink alcohol"

The bible is filled with all the imperfect humans we ever need to meet. King David, King Solomon, Paul, all believers who fell to sin. Jesus meets us where we are at with either the love or condemnation that we need, at the time we need it.

Thank God for his hand book to live life is left for us.

Originally Posted by TomMcC

If you notice, I haven't spoken about any of the particulars of Christmas. I am arguing that it violates the fundamental principle related to who controls how we worship.....God or man. The invention of Christmas violates this principle. It's doubly horrible that the Popes invented it, and then talked evangelicals into it. God told the Israelites exactly what constituted true worship, and told them not to deviate from His word. The principle hasn't changed in the NT, it continues on. There doesn't have to be an evangelical church commanding it, like Rome does, it's enough that Christians practice it and call it legitimate worship.

....................not following you here. This was one of the most awesome Christian outreaches ever. A pagan holiday was converted to a holiday that pointed towards Christ and away from paganism, and you have a problem with this?

[TrailerparkTrash]

Originally Posted by TomMcC

I'm afraid I will have strenuously disagree with your interpretation of Roman 14.....

Shocking.

Tom, you disagree with everyone here, but yourself. There's really no point in debating you on anything.