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  #121  
Old 06-07-2009, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by J-cat View Post
Telling a LEO to leave you alone when you have done nothing wrong is perfectly legal.
How does he know there is no violation of the law unless he investigates??
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What you believe and what is true in real life in the real world aren't necessarily the same thing. And what you believe doesn't change what is true in real life in the real world.
  #122  
Old 06-07-2009, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by SVT-40 View Post
How does he know there is no violation of the law unless he investigates??
DING! DING!

We have a WINNER!
  #123  
Old 06-07-2009, 10:51 PM
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Here is a question for you.

Why, when a CHP officer gave me a ticket for supposedly doing 67mph in a 65mph zone on IH8 feel the need to throw (yes throw) the ticket at me as he was smirking and laughing...?

As I was trying to address this "officer of the law" he simply walked away from me got back in his cruiser and drove off(?).

The CHP officer was about as fat as I have seen a "public servant" in a long time. He must have taken a few minutes out of his eating schedule to start handing out tickets without any provocation what so ever.

I understand the state is broke but it is hard to respect a department that hires jokers like this. As of right now CHP has lost my trust...
Maybe you were a smart ***. Contempt of cop is always good for a ticket.
  #124  
Old 06-07-2009, 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by SVT-40 View Post
How does he know there is no violation of the law unless he investigates??
In order for him to investigate, he has to have reasonable suspicion that criminal behavior is taking place. Since AW's are legal to possess and discharge at a public shooting range, where is his reasonable suspicion? Remember, the penal code specifies where AW's can be discharged and a public shooting range is one of those places. Do you think cops can just waltz into a high power match and detain everyone because they have AR-15's? Absent additional factors, they can't.
  #125  
Old 06-07-2009, 11:02 PM
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Originally Posted by tazmanian devil dog View Post
Maybe you were a smart ***. Contempt of cop is always good for a ticket.
I wish it was that simple. Unfortunately, I got *** raped because either 1.) the state is broke and CHP knows the cash cow is on its highways 2.) my Texas plates make me a target (most other states hate Texans like the Taliban hate Americans.)

The CHP officer new what he was doing and thought it was funny; he also knew that his badge and his gun gave him the power to do it. This is an unfortunate pitfall to our society. Though not perfect I would like to believe it is still the best country to live in on planet earth no matter what Obama does on a daily basis to deuterate it.
  #126  
Old 06-07-2009, 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted by J-cat View Post
In order for him to investigate, he has to have reasonable suspicion that criminal behavior is taking place. Since AW's are legal to possess and discharge at a public shooting range, where is his reasonable suspicion? Remember, the penal code specifies where AW's can be discharged and a public shooting range is one of those places. Do you think cops can just waltz into a high power match and detain everyone because they have AR-15's? Absent additional factors, they can't.
At a high power match all the shooters and their equipment would have been vetted by the match organizers. But your original statement was about a public range. Very different situations all together.

If you don't like my answers fine. Do as you please. I hope no one else here takes your advice though.

It will not do them any good and only lead to trouble.

By the way, what formal training education and experience do you have in relation to just what an officer can and cannot do??
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What you believe and what is true in real life in the real world aren't necessarily the same thing. And what you believe doesn't change what is true in real life in the real world.
  #127  
Old 06-07-2009, 11:07 PM
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So you can read minds. You "knew" that he "knew" he had all this power to personally make your driving experience crappy.

My hats off to you.

I wish I "knew" what people thought.

Good luck with that.

And yes, you are from Texas aren't you.
  #128  
Old 06-07-2009, 11:09 PM
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Originally Posted by J-cat View Post
In order for him to investigate, he has to have reasonable suspicion that criminal behavior is taking place. Since AW's are legal to possess and discharge at a public shooting range, where is his reasonable suspicion? Remember, the penal code specifies where AW's can be discharged and a public shooting range is one of those places. Do you think cops can just waltz into a high power match and detain everyone because they have AR-15's? Absent additional factors, they can't.
"In order for him to investigate, he has to have reasonable suspicion that criminal behavior is taking place." -J-CAT.

And there you have it folks.
  #129  
Old 06-07-2009, 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by J-cat View Post
If you tell these guys to F-off, that's all they will be able to do. You shooting an AW at a public shooting range is specifically allowed by the Penal Code. That activity does not even rise to the level of Reasonable Suspicion. Yes, they can approach you and ask questions, but they cannot do anything more than that. If they do, the consensual encounter turns into an unlawful detention and gives you legal avenues for relief.

Stop being paranoid.
So you have a legal rifle, the cop ask questions about it, and you tell him to F-off. Wouldn't it be more reasonable and mature to use this opportunity to educate the officer as to why this weapon is legal instead of leaving the impression that you are just another a**h**e gun nut. You can bet that after telling the cop to F-off, he will find some reason to make an official contact. Don't spit on the ground, drop anything, and make sure you obey all traffic laws when driving home. All can be avoided and you can leave a positive impression of people that participate in shooting sports just by being polite and informative about your weapon.
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  #130  
Old 06-07-2009, 11:14 PM
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Originally Posted by tazmanian devil dog View Post
So you can read minds. You "knew" that he "knew" he had all this power to personally make your driving experience crappy.

My hats off to you.

I wish I "knew" what people thought.

Good luck with that.

And yes, you are from Texas aren't you.
It didn't take a genius to figure out that a laughing cop throwing a ticket at you was nothing more than abuse of authority. Just like it doesn't take a genius to see you are someone with an angst against Texans. Like it or not Haters are here to stay. Your post alone proves that. People, cops included "HATE," it is an ugly part of humanity plain and simple.
  #131  
Old 06-07-2009, 11:15 PM
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Originally Posted by TRICKSTER View Post
So you have a legal rifle, the cop ask questions about it, and you tell him to F-off. Wouldn't it be more reasonable and mature to use this opportunity to educate the officer as to why this weapon is legal instead of leaving the impression that you are just another a**h**e gun nut. You can bet that after telling the cop to F-off, he will find some reason to make an official contact. Don't spit on the ground, drop anything, and make sure you obey all traffic laws when driving home. All can be avoided and you can leave a positive impression of people that participate in shooting sports just by being polite and informative about your weapon.
Trickster

You are 110% right on the money. Having a bad attitude just makes us all look bad. You get a lot more with honey than vinegar. People with attitudes like ST5MF give the rest of us a very very bad name.
  #132  
Old 06-07-2009, 11:23 PM
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Originally Posted by tazmanian devil dog View Post
Trickster

You are 110% right on the money. Having a bad attitude just makes us all look bad. You get a lot more with honey than vinegar. People with attitudes like ST5MF give the rest of us a very very bad name.
You don't read much do you?
  #133  
Old 06-07-2009, 11:28 PM
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Whatever dude. You aren't worth the time.
  #134  
Old 06-07-2009, 11:32 PM
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Originally Posted by tazmanian devil dog View Post
Whatever dude. You aren't worth the time.
You don't write much either. You are a grunt.

Maybe reading and writing aren't your game. Perhaps a "spelling contest."
  #135  
Old 06-07-2009, 11:42 PM
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ST5MF, enough already, we get it. You got a ticket that you don't think you deserved, you think the cop was rude and making fun of you because you are from Texas, and because of the perceived actions of this one CHP officer, you have lost faith in the whole department Obsessing over it can't be healthy. Let it go and move on before you stroke out.
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  #136  
Old 06-08-2009, 12:03 AM
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Originally Posted by tazmanian devil dog View Post
So you can read minds. You "knew" that he "knew" he had all this power to personally make your driving experience crappy.

My hats off to you.

I wish I "knew" what people thought.

Good luck with that.

And yes, you are from Texas aren't you.
Tasmanian Tough Nuts was the resurrector bro. He and his fine example of a read'n and a rite'n that is.

If you want to issue a debate then expect to be called on. I thought we were past the ticket thing about 20 post ago. Boy Genius felt otherwise.
  #137  
Old 06-08-2009, 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted by tazmanian devil dog View Post
Trickster

You are 110% right on the money. Having a bad attitude just makes us all look bad. You get a lot more with honey than vinegar. People with attitudes like ST5MF give the rest of us a very very bad name.
You give yourself not just a "very" but a "very very" bad name by your unintelligable posts, you don't need my help; your doing just fine all by your lonesome.
  #138  
Old 06-08-2009, 7:12 AM
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CHP tickets everyone. Pay your fees, do an online traffic school, and get over it. As far as the range goes in reference to OLL's, keep a copy of the flow chart. There is also a good Training Bulletin from Sacramento PD that would be worth keeping with the flow chart.
  #139  
Old 06-08-2009, 7:21 AM
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No he can't. You are not in just any public place. You are at a public shooting range. An AW at a public shooting range is not RS for a detention, Sorry, you are wrong.
Bad Info .....AGAIN
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  #140  
Old 06-08-2009, 7:37 AM
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Originally Posted by J-cat View Post
In order for him to investigate, he has to have reasonable suspicion that criminal behavior is taking place. Since AW's are legal to possess and discharge at a public shooting range, where is his reasonable suspicion? Remember, the penal code specifies where AW's can be discharged and a public shooting range is one of those places. Do you think cops can just waltz into a high power match and detain everyone because they have AR-15's? Absent additional factors, they can't.
AWs are only legal to possess if they are REGISTERED in compliance with the law, even if they are at a place where it is legal to shoot.

You don't seem to have much accuracy in YOUR intrepretation of the law and police procedures. You are entitled to YOUR opinion, however wrong it may be, but please stop using this forum to spread inaccurate informantion that could get someone in trouble.

This forum is for Law Enforcement Officers to share information and for non-law enforcement to ask questions. If you are not law enforcement, your posts should be restricted to asking questions only. You should not be posting your opinions in this forum.

There are other forums available for you to post in. You can post your legal opinions in the legal issues forum. No one will notice because there is already way too much inaccurate information there to sort out. Too many people with a high school law degree putting out bad information and not enough moderators to sort it out. In this forum, someone might think you are law enforcement and take your mis-information as gospel, thereby getting themselves in hot water, then blaming law enforcement for their troubles.

If you are law enforcement, which I seriously doubt based on your posts, you don't know squat and are in some serious need of additional training on the laws of arrest, probable cause and investigative techniques. You are giving us a bad name. But like I said, I seriously doubt you are law enforcement.

You seem to be trying to provoke a confrontation, which is not acceptable in this forum.

Questions asked in a civil manner are welcomed and we will try to answer them as best we can. If you came here to pass on anti-law enforcement dribble, it's time for you to go away or go to another forum.
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  #141  
Old 06-08-2009, 8:07 AM
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I'm going to beat the dead horse here, this forum allows members to ask LEO questions without calling the dept or stopping one on the street. Twice I can remember that good intentions turned bad.

You have a few cops here willing to give free time to us and I'd think everyone would keep that in mind when posting here. If you read the rules you will see more about what I just said.

So, do not come in here unless you are here to ask questions and are looking for gun friendly cops to answer.
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  #142  
Old 06-08-2009, 3:03 PM
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I can be wrong, but it seems like some people got banned and keep coming back with different ID. Their tone of the writing feels the same.

Anyways, I learn a lot from the Calguns. At the same time, I try to post the information from my daily work, working specifically with a lot of guns involved in crimes one way or the other. Some people even complained about it also.

I know we cannot please everyone, but I am just doing my job.

Last edited by Jonathan Doe; 06-08-2009 at 3:51 PM..
  #143  
Old 06-08-2009, 3:20 PM
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I know we can please everyone, but I am just doing my job.
You must work in a great community...we could never please everyone.
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  #144  
Old 06-08-2009, 3:20 PM
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Originally Posted by topgun7 View Post
At the same time, I try to post the information from my daily work, working specifically with a lot of guns involved in crimes one way or the other. Some people even complained about it also.
I'm sure that many of us appreciate your posts.

.
  #145  
Old 06-08-2009, 3:44 PM
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Originally Posted by 6172crew View Post
I'm going to beat the dead horse here, this forum allows members to ask LEO questions without calling the dept or stopping one on the street. Twice I can remember that good intentions turned bad.

You have a few cops here willing to give free time to us and I'd think everyone would keep that in mind when posting here. If you read the rules you will see more about what I just said.

So, do not come in here unless you are here to ask questions and are looking for gun friendly cops to answer.
+1000

And I'd like to add one more rule if I may. When you ask a question from a LEO on this forum, understand that you own whatever answer comes back. When you solicite an opinion or advice from an LEO there is to be no arguing, or bickering about the answer. Debate, clarification, and follow-up questions are fine. But hostility to the answer and answerer are not permitted, the same goes with snide personal come-backs. Reply remarks prefaced with, "I'll bet you wouldn't give that answer if you couldn't hide behind your badge" are inappropriate. The same holds true for the old worn out hacknied "doughnut" cliche's and "revenue generating" counter points. They've been done to death. If you believe that is the purpose for LE in your community, fine. But keep it to yourself and out of this forum. Remember never ask a question that you don't want to hear the answer to.

Last edited by Fire in the Hole; 06-08-2009 at 3:48 PM..
  #146  
Old 06-08-2009, 3:52 PM
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You must work in a great community...we could never please everyone.
Now I corrected it. My keyboard skill sucks.
  #147  
Old 06-08-2009, 5:16 PM
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+1000
Remember never ask a question that you don't want to hear the answer to.
God I love this one :-)!!!
  #148  
Old 06-08-2009, 5:54 PM
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Remember never ask a question that you don't want to hear the answer to.
My dad used to tell me that all the time. What great words!! Maybe I should forward a copy of this quote to my boss!!!
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I don't feel a thing when some cop gets ghosted.
  #149  
Old 06-08-2009, 9:48 PM
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Originally Posted by SVT-40 View Post
At a high power match all the shooters and their equipment would have been vetted by the match organizers. But your original statement was about a public range. Very different situations all together.

If you don't like my answers fine. Do as you please. I hope no one else here takes your advice though.

It will not do them any good and only lead to trouble.

By the way, what formal training education and experience do you have in relation to just what an officer can and cannot do??
It is not a very different situation at all. High power matches take place at public shooting ranges.

Do you pull over cars just to see if the drivers are licensed?

As far as my quals, I am a peace officer in this state. I have both undergrad and graduate degrees in this field. I don't troll shooting ranges for offenders. But I do detain and search people every week in their homes and on the road.
  #150  
Old 06-08-2009, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Ron-Solo View Post
AWs are only legal to possess if they are REGISTERED in compliance with the law, even if they are at a place where it is legal to shoot.

You don't seem to have much accuracy in YOUR intrepretation of the law and police procedures. You are entitled to YOUR opinion, however wrong it may be, but please stop using this forum to spread inaccurate informantion that could get someone in trouble.

This forum is for Law Enforcement Officers to share information and for non-law enforcement to ask questions. If you are not law enforcement, your posts should be restricted to asking questions only. You should not be posting your opinions in this forum.

There are other forums available for you to post in. You can post your legal opinions in the legal issues forum. No one will notice because there is already way too much inaccurate information there to sort out. Too many people with a high school law degree putting out bad information and not enough moderators to sort it out. In this forum, someone might think you are law enforcement and take your mis-information as gospel, thereby getting themselves in hot water, then blaming law enforcement for their troubles.

If you are law enforcement, which I seriously doubt based on your posts, you don't know squat and are in some serious need of additional training on the laws of arrest, probable cause and investigative techniques. You are giving us a bad name. But like I said, I seriously doubt you are law enforcement.

You seem to be trying to provoke a confrontation, which is not acceptable in this forum.

Questions asked in a civil manner are welcomed and we will try to answer them as best we can. If you came here to pass on anti-law enforcement dribble, it's time for you to go away or go to another forum.
You don't understand the basics of detention and arrest.

You cannot stop and detain someone just because you wanna see their registration. An AW is not illegal to possess at a shooting range. The law does not require people to glue their AW registration letter to the side of their rifle. You do not have the right to forcibly inquire into the registration issue without additional factors that would raise suspicion that criminal activity is occurring. What criminal activity are you investigating? Possession of an illegal AW? So mere ownership of an AW is grounds for detention every time I leave my house? How about possession of an unregistered pistol? Are you going to detain and run every single pistol owner every time they go to the range just to see they are registered?

You cannot pull over a car just to see the driver's CDL.

You cannot detain a pedestrian just to run him for warrants.

ETC.
  #151  
Old 06-08-2009, 10:15 PM
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J-Cat,

I am glad you post here as an LEO.

You are exactly what the LEO Forum Needs.

So now when other LEO's think I am bashing them; you can prove my points with your responses.

TIA.
  #152  
Old 06-08-2009, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by J-cat View Post
You don't understand the basics of detention and arrest.

You cannot stop and detain someone just because you wanna see their registration. An AW is not illegal to possess at a shooting range. The law does not require people to glue their AW registration letter to the side of their rifle. You do not have the right to forcibly inquire into the registration issue without additional factors that would raise suspicion that criminal activity is occurring. What criminal activity are you investigating? Possession of an illegal AW? So mere ownership of an AW is grounds for detention every time I leave my house? How about possession of an unregistered pistol? Are you going to detain and run every single pistol owner every time they go to the range just to see they are registered?

You cannot pull over a car just to see the driver's CDL.

You cannot detain a pedestrian just to run him for warrants.

ETC.
Where did you get your law degree or basic POST certificate?

I have 32 years in law enforcement and hold a Basic, Intermediate, Advanced, Supervisory, and Middle Management Post Certificates. I think I know the laws of arrest and the case law supporting detentions and probable cause. I've made thousands of arrests and never had one dismissed due to unlawful detention or lack of probable cause.

So far, you have been spreading out mis-information. Most of what you post is inaccurate and half-truths. For crying out loud - STOP IT !

Your intrepretations are going to get someone in hot water if they believe what you post.

Please stop spreading inaccurate information in this forum.

FYI, there is no requirement in CA to register a pistol and it is not a crime. You are showing your ignorance again. Sadly, it is you who do not understand the basics of detention and arrest.

Time for you to go...........
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  #153  
Old 06-08-2009, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by ST5MF View Post
J-Cat,

I am glad you post here as an LEO.

You are exactly what the LEO Forum Needs.

So now when other LEO's think I am bashing them; you can prove my points with your responses.

TIA.
Sadly, J-cat is spreading inaccurate info, and no peace officer in the state would recommend telling a LEO to F-Off as he put it earlier. I seriously doubt his validity.

It is one thing to politely disagree, but I have a problem with him giving out bad advice that could land someone in a bed of legal hassles that could easily be avoided.

Ron
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Last edited by Ron-Solo; 06-08-2009 at 10:27 PM..
  #154  
Old 06-08-2009, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by J-cat View Post
It is not a very different situation at all. High power matches take place at public shooting ranges.

Do you pull over cars just to see if the drivers are licensed?

As far as my quals, I am a peace officer in this state. I have both undergrad and graduate degrees in this field. I don't troll shooting ranges for offenders. But I do detain and search people every week in their homes and on the road.
As I said at a high power match ALL equipment would be vetted by the range masters. So it's apples and oranges.

If you have to ask about pulling cars over to see if the drivers are licensed, then I truly believe you are not a Police Officer or Deputy Sheriff.

What type of peace officer are you? There are many, according to the penal code who are technically "peace officers" such as Probation or Parole officers and prison guards.

These gentleman have a tough job, but they do not preform the job of a street cop or deputy. They do not handle routine calls and have near the street experience with search and seizure issues. Most everything they do is related to warrants or probation and parole searches. Very few "observation" type detentions or contacts.

So as to quote you :

"But I do detain and search people every week in their homes and on the road."

May I ask just how you legally detain people in their homes and their vehicles??

Search and seizure 101:
If an officer who is in a public place sees what he believes or suspects is criminal, or possible criminal behavior. He can detain those involved to determine if in fact any crime has occurred or is occurring. He is free to examine any property in plain sight. including any firearm.

Like it or not that is what cops do. The officer does not have to KNOW a crime has or is occurring. All that is needed is a belief or suspicion.

The belief or suspicion can be based on his training and experience or just good old common sense.

After the original detention or casual contact he would investigate to determine if a crime actually was or had occurred.

It could be as simple as asking "does that rifle have a mag lock and a ten round mag"? Once he verified all was legal off he goes with minimal intrusion.

Contacts or detentions to verify legality of many items or actions take place every day. Like stopping young looking people with alcohol to determine their age. You can't know their age so you stop and verify it. No big deal.

As I said in my other post If a LEO was in any public place and saw a person with a baggie of white powder. He has plenty of reasons to stop the person and verify that the baggie does not contain illegal drugs.. He does not have to know they are drugs. He just has to have a suspicion. Same goes for weapons.

As for "trolling" at ranges. have you ever seen it done? It would be a waste of a cops time. Most folks at ranges are very upstanding types. When cops are at a range to shoot they don't want to get involved with any enforcement contacts. They are there to shoot.

One other thing to consider if approached by a LEO at a range. He most likely will be acting on a call for service where it has been reported that someone has an "illegal weapon". You would not know this. So telling him to F##off would not be conducive to having a positive outcome for the contact, and would get the contact off on the wrong foot.
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What you believe and what is true in real life in the real world aren't necessarily the same thing. And what you believe doesn't change what is true in real life in the real world.
  #155  
Old 06-08-2009, 10:50 PM
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J-Cat,

I am glad you post here as an LEO.

You are exactly what the LEO Forum Needs.

So now when other LEO's think I am bashing them; you can prove my points with your responses.

TIA.

Of course this is a "tongue in cheek" response.

Before someone mounts an all out attack on me- I am being vicious.
  #156  
Old 06-08-2009, 10:53 PM
Gator Monroe Gator Monroe is offline
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lET'S ATTACK dEM/lIBS INSTED ?
  #157  
Old 06-08-2009, 10:55 PM
J-cat J-cat is offline
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Originally Posted by Ron-Solo View Post
Where did you get your law degree or basic POST certificate?

I have 32 years in law enforcement and hold a Basic, Intermediate, Advanced, Supervisory, and Middle Management Post Certificates. I think I know the laws of arrest and the case law supporting detentions and probable cause. I've made thousands of arrests and never had one dismissed due to unlawful detention or lack of probable cause.

So far, you have been spreading out mis-information. Most of what you post is inaccurate and half-truths. For crying out loud - STOP IT !

Your intrepretations are going to get someone in hot water if they believe what you post.

Please stop spreading inaccurate information in this forum.

FYI, there is no requirement in CA to register a pistol and it is not a crime. You are showing your ignorance again. Sadly, it is you who do not understand the basics of detention and arrest.

Time for you to go...........
Time for you to go. It is absolutely lamentable that someone with your credentials has a fundamental misunderstanding of the law.

Instead of attacking my credentials, why don't you explain how the possession of an AW at a shooting range, absent any other factors, rises to the level of reasonable suspicion that criminal activity is occurring?

Please do, because driving a car without a license is illegal, yet you cannot pull me over just to check.

And possession of stolen property is illegal, but you cannot run my Ipod just because you see me walking down the street.

Please justify your position instead of attacking me personally.
  #158  
Old 06-08-2009, 11:00 PM
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J-cat, So you work for CDC. (California Department Of Corrections) for those of you not familiar with the term.

I commend you for your work in our states penal system. It takes a special sort to stay confined with, and tend to the worst of the worst in our society. Hats off to you.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddletown View Post
What you believe and what is true in real life in the real world aren't necessarily the same thing. And what you believe doesn't change what is true in real life in the real world.

Last edited by SVT-40; 06-08-2009 at 11:03 PM..
  #159  
Old 06-09-2009, 1:26 AM
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Originally Posted by J-cat View Post
Time for you to go. It is absolutely lamentable that someone with your credentials has a fundamental misunderstanding of the law.

Instead of attacking my credentials, why don't you explain how the possession of an AW at a shooting range, absent any other factors, rises to the level of reasonable suspicion that criminal activity is occurring?
How about someone with an AW and subject is obviously not old enough to have been of age when the AWB went into effect.
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  #160  
Old 06-09-2009, 1:37 AM
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Please do, because driving a car without a license is illegal, yet you cannot pull me over just to check.
Wasn't Richmond PD doing exactly with their vehicle checkpoints?
What about back in the days when CHP was doing vehicle safety inspections?
What about DUI checkpoints?
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