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Long Distance Shooting Discuss tools, techniques, tips and theories of long distance shooting

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  #1  
Old 03-31-2017, 4:08 AM
kcstott kcstott is offline
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Default cheap Good FFP scope

In the interests of full disclosure I'm Kind of a leupold Shill or fan boy

But I just seen the New leupold VX 3i 8.5-25x50mm FFP TMR MSRP is $1299 and i'm sure you can get in on eBay for less. But holy crap FFP for less then my Mk4?? with the same reticle and Mil turrets..

This is what free market competition does. you get companies like Vortex and NF pushing FFP at low prices and it forces older companies to follow suit.
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Old 03-31-2017, 12:49 PM
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Interesting find. They have it for $999 at Cabela's.
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  #3  
Old 03-31-2017, 4:33 PM
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Depending on the type of shooting you like to do I could see missing a little FOV on the low end with this scope.

Looking forward to hearing some comparison/reviews.

These days I think they are trying to gain back lost market share and they have a long way to go IMO. Lots of players in this space with very established reputations to fight against.
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Old 03-31-2017, 5:13 PM
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Originally Posted by ExtremeX View Post
Depending on the type of shooting you like to do I could see missing a little FOV on the low end with this scope.

Looking forward to hearing some comparison/reviews.

These days I think they are trying to gain back lost market share and they have a long way to go IMO. Lots of players in this space with very established reputations to fight against.
No I think Leupold just didn't follow every new whim that came along.

If you look at the top of the mark and Vortex and NF are not even included on the A list of players, Ziess, US Optics, and S&B, didn't just spit out every conceivable model you could make. Neither did leupold. Yes they fell short in the military tactical area, and didn't get suitable products released in enough time to be on the band wagon. But, and yeah I don't like it either, but they were slow to advance, Cautious a little overly cautious.
The only other brand for me would be S&B and they are double the price and more of a Leupold. NF and Vortex don't have features i like and what they do have is all the stuff i hate. Looking through some of the NF Horus reticles is a bloody nightmare.. What the hell would you fill your field of view with so much useless crap?
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Old 04-02-2017, 1:27 AM
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So I'm guessing you're not weighing any of the SWFA SS's scopes? They're pretty cheap, but great value for the money.

If we're talking the 1200 (+/- a hundred) range: SWFA 5-25, and the Vortex Viper PST Gen 2 are also nice scopes in that realm.

Whether you like Leupold or not, they're losing market share. They have been great in 2014, but, I see no reason to purchase their scopes until they start innovating or being more competitive in their pricing.

http://precisionrifleblog.com/2017/0...opes-pros-use/
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Old 04-03-2017, 4:57 AM
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I'm impressed with Vortex but I don't care for the Reticles. The leupold I mentioned has the reticle that I favor the Leupold TMR. I don't like a Busy reticle, i don't need a wind and range tree. I just need mil graduations that don't clutter up my field of view. SWFA?? I'd have to see but I'm also very wary of buying cheap stuff. Not saying it's bad just saying i don't have any trust.
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Old 04-03-2017, 8:32 AM
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March got the ball rolling on the latest technology and the others either had to follow or get swallowed up.
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  #8  
Old 04-03-2017, 1:22 PM
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Originally Posted by kcstott View Post
SWFA?? I'd have to see but I'm also very wary of buying cheap stuff. Not saying it's bad just saying i don't have any trust.
I've been using a couple of their 5-20x50 and 6x fixed power scopes for years now. My buddy got a used 5-20x50 for about $1k last year. We have both been quite pleased with the quality and performance, but I do wish there was a zero stop on it...
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Old 04-03-2017, 5:47 PM
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but I do wish there was a zero stop on it...

Leupold has hash marks for a rev count. My 308 is two marks exposed = 100 meter zero.

zero stops not needed. I had a former Seal ask me the same question.. "well they don't have zero stops" and you can buy aftermarket turrets that do but if you know WTF you are doing you don't need zero stops.

Last edited by kcstott; 04-04-2017 at 3:35 AM..
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Old 04-04-2017, 3:52 AM
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Keep in mind this wasn't a Bash everybody but leupold thread.
Personally I have no faith in SWFA in a FFP for a few hundred bucks to be a quality scope. Notice i say "No faith" That means i freely admit to never have handled one and never looked through one. I do However have trust in Tiborasaurusrex and his eye for quality and how he reviews things, That said I do have a rifle in need of a better scope but I'm not wanting to dump a bunch of money on a $200 installing a higher end scope that won't get used that much. so a decent Vortex or SWFA might fit that application.

My other personal preference Is i want all my scopes to have the same reticle be it FFP or SFP I want the same reticle. I don't want to have to remember that this scope is this and that scope is that, I want .1 mil clicks mil reticle with graduations at half an hole mil not dots and not Horus busied up wind and range tree crap. I just want consistency from rifle to rifle.
Like looking through Iron sights, to me there is nothing better than the classic M1 Garand sight picture, which came from the 1903A3 Springfield improved on the Garand, relatively unchanged on the M14 and only slightly changed on the M16 rifles.

This thread was started to show that Leupold, A company with a great track record for building solid optics albeit slow to change and upgrade, having a top notch warrant has finally produced a FFP scope in a magnification range on par with your LR needs at half the cost of any of their other FFP scopes. Thats a huge step for them. and it put a quality product that can be trusted out of the box to work and if something should fail mail it to oregon and get it taken care of no questions asked.

I'll say it again I'm a fan of Leupold
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Old 04-04-2017, 3:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ExtremeX View Post
Depending on the type of shooting you like to do I could see missing a little FOV on the low end with this scope.

Looking forward to hearing some comparison/reviews.

These days I think they are trying to gain back lost market share and they have a long way to go IMO. Lots of players in this space with very established reputations to fight against.
They start out with a 4.5-14, have a 6.5-20 and then the 8.5-25 to cover all ranges of magnification

I see this as nothing but a direct response to SWFA, Vortex, and NF having FFP scopes in the $1200 range
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  #12  
Old 04-04-2017, 12:55 PM
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I think you are underestimating how good of a scope you are getting with someone like SWFA.

If you compare apples to apples... SWFA 5-20 out of their SS HD line, you would need to spend 3 times more money with Leupold to get to that optical clarity.

It has been and probably will be one of the best values in optical performance. Leupold makes good stuff, you just need to pay more for it. Its not like they didn't have the product this entire time.

Problem is once you get to where you want to go with Leupold, there are other brands worth considering yet again.

Sometimes just looking at price doesn't give you the full picture.
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Old 04-04-2017, 2:46 PM
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Originally Posted by kcstott View Post
In the interests of full disclosure I'm Kind of a leupold Shill or fan boy

But I just seen the New leupold VX 3i 8.5-25x50mm FFP TMR MSRP is $1299 and i'm sure you can get in on eBay for less. But holy crap FFP for less then my Mk4?? with the same reticle and Mil turrets..

This is what free market competition does. you get companies like Vortex and NF pushing FFP at low prices and it forces older companies to follow suit.
I'm glad Leupold finally got on board. They make a great scope, I just could not see why people would spend more money on a scope that had less features.
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Old 04-04-2017, 4:29 PM
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Guys ask me why i don't use NF?? One answer.

Not in business long enough...
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Old 06-24-2017, 4:44 PM
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I have a falcon menace I have enjoyed it so far
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  #16  
Old 06-25-2017, 12:01 PM
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Leupold is garbage. I mean look at the mark 4. There's a reason the military stopped buying them. I'm
Not basing my bias just off that scope either. I firmly done like 1 in tubes, or how leupold mechanisms work.
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Old 06-26-2017, 2:25 PM
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Leupold is garbage. I mean look at the mark 4. There's a reason the military stopped buying them. I'm
Not basing my bias just off that scope either. I firmly done like 1 in tubes, or how leupold mechanisms work.
well if you knew anything about the Mk4 you'd know it's a 30mm tube.

Leupold mechanisms work the same as ever other scope on the market.

Zero stops, rev counters, more clicks per rev, turret locks, are all personal preference.
leupold is behind the curve on development but they are far from garbage
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Old 06-26-2017, 2:41 PM
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My buddy at LSI just sent me a Nikko Stirling 4-14 FFP scope that he has been testing for a few months and has been happy with. MSRP is about $450 or so. He has his on a 6.5 Grendel gas gun and it was ringing steel out at 850 this past weekend. I have mine mounted up temporarily to my 6.5CM and so far its really good. the reticle is accurate, clicks mean something and it comes back to zero.

ETA: The glass is very surprising in its quality as well. He tells me it is Japanese glass and not cheaper Philipines etc. glass.

I actually still own a couple of Leupolds but have gotten away from them because others- Specifically Burris, Trijicon, and even Bushnell have gotten far better than they once were then the "quality gap" is no longer there.
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Old 06-26-2017, 2:43 PM
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Guys ask me why i don't use NF?? One answer.

Not in business long enough...

I sort of swore off NF because of a horrible warranty/repair experience I had a few years ago. It SEEMS like competition from other manufacturers has forced them to change their customer service protocols a bit as I have heard great things about them lately.
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Old 06-28-2017, 3:48 AM
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For me 14X is a zero to 300 meter scope and nothing more, I want as much magnification as mirage will allow.

This post specifically addressed FFP scopes, which typically start out at $2400 and go up from there when equipped with a good reticle.

My brother had a Howa Rifle which I consider to be a step up from a Mosin, and the glass that was on it, A nikko scope, Pretty much junk, Pretty much what I would expect in a package deal, their FFP scope may be a better deal. I don't know but I won't trust it. Guys can say what they will about Leupold. About how they are behind the curve. crap like "There's a reason the military stopped buying them". yeah there is the military has started buying the Mk6 and Mk8 so what does that tell you.

I have no use to buy a scope that would sit atop the best military sniper weapons around. again I shoot F class and and if you want to buy the so called best because the Seals use it, or if you don't want to spend over $299 because you're broke that don't mean leupold is junk
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Old 06-28-2017, 6:47 AM
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Originally Posted by kcstott View Post
I have no use to buy a scope that would sit atop the best military sniper weapons around. again I shoot F class and and if you want to buy the so called best because the Seals use it, or if you don't want to spend over $299 because you're broke that don't mean leupold is junk
I'm a fan of the Mk 4's too. The nice thing is I can buy them for a relatively bargain price off SnipersHide since all the members "in the know" are selling them to buy the latest Seal Team choices. I'll admit though, I only shoot F-T/R Midrange, not LR.
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Old 06-28-2017, 7:02 AM
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Pretty much only shoot LR except when the LR match gets cancelled then I have to shoot MR
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Old 06-28-2017, 7:58 AM
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Originally Posted by kcstott View Post
For me 14X is a zero to 300 meter scope and nothing more, I want as much magnification as mirage will allow.

This post specifically addressed FFP scopes, which typically start out at $2400 and go up from there when equipped with a good reticle.

My brother had a Howa Rifle which I consider to be a step up from a Mosin, and the glass that was on it, A nikko scope, Pretty much junk, Pretty much what I would expect in a package deal, their FFP scope may be a better deal. I don't know but I won't trust it. Guys can say what they will about Leupold. About how they are behind the curve. crap like "There's a reason the military stopped buying them". yeah there is the military has started buying the Mk6 and Mk8 so what does that tell you.

I have no use to buy a scope that would sit atop the best military sniper weapons around. again I shoot F class and and if you want to buy the so called best because the Seals use it, or if you don't want to spend over $299 because you're broke that don't mean leupold is junk
I have a good friend who sold almost all his Leupold glass and went to pretty much all Vortex, which is OK but I never really got on that bandwagon.
Then he sold his Vortex off and replaced a little over half of them with Leupolds again, with a Trijicon or two thrown in for good measure. Its all good stuff.
I got away from USO because the reticles were not as usable for what I was doing. Great glass and you can throw the thing off the closest mountain and it would be fine, but I could not get past the reticle.
Leupolds I still like, have a couple, but thier BDC style reticle is too busy, and I am not yet proficient with the TREMOR 3 reticle enough to know if it works for me or not. I really tend to like simple mil-dot reticles.
Like I said, NF was a bad experience for me, so have not bought another, although I am tempted by some current offerings.

I really used to judge a scope by its price tag and after sending in a Swaro Z6i for the second time because it broke realized that price does not have a single thing to do with quality in a scope. Sure the Swaro has great glass, but its fragile, the Kahles is the same glass in a more durable package. I was very skeptical of the Burris XTR II 1-8 I currently use, but it has to be just about the best 3-gun scope I have used- FFP, very good glass, repeatable clicks, and zero stops for under a grand. No idea how they do it.
Bushnell also shocked me with thier new LRHS, terrific glass and build quality for around $1500=amazing.

I am still shocked at the quality of this Nikko, no zero stops but Matt reports he has beat the crap out of it and it just keeps on going. Not something I would normally use for anything beyond a varmint rifle or truck gun, but right now I have it mounted up on my 6.5CM AR10 and will shoot the Nightforce match in New Mexico with it in two weeks. I had toyed with swapping over a different scope onto it, but that leaves another gun without glass and I am interested to see if this thing holds up.

As far as the newest greatest .mil Seal Sniperiffic scopes go, who cares? Probably a better metric is what are people who are winning PRS matches throwing down thier hard earned cash to buy.
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Old 06-28-2017, 10:33 AM
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KC I remember the first time you looked through my Mk4 on my 700 and fell in love with it. Oh wait that is when we flew the for the (first time) 220 SMK HPBT 1 mile . Good times good times
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Old 06-28-2017, 1:46 PM
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KC I remember the first time you looked through my Mk4 on my 700 and fell in love with it. Oh wait that is when we flew the for the (first time) 220 SMK HPBT 1 mile . Good times good times
Yep. glass never looked so good.
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Old 06-28-2017, 1:54 PM
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Dwalker
I hear you but PRS has Gear Queers too. People that buy stuff just because they can and just so they can brag. We have a guy that sometimes shows up at our Long range matches just so he can brag about all the money wastes on new gear when he shoots <175 average.

It's funny our top shooters are the modest guys, Well ok we have one guy that if you rub the wrong way has a short fuse, but he's a damn good guy and a damn fine shot. Listen the chatter on the firing line, most are there to have fun and ask questions, others are their to hear them selves speak.
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Old 06-28-2017, 8:40 PM
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Dwalker
We have a guy that sometimes shows up at our Long range matches just so he can brag about all the money wastes on new gear when he shoots <175 average.
If that is his fun of shooting . . . fine

Finally good for the companies and later for the people who buy his used stuff !

Perfect guy who keeps the economy running

We need more of those . . . lol
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Old 06-29-2017, 3:09 AM
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If that is his fun of shooting . . . fine

Finally good for the companies and later for the people who buy his used stuff !

Perfect guy who keeps the economy running

We need more of those . . . lol
Yeah but we also need laws against ear rape, because if he bought anything new don't worry he'll tell you.

It is funny though that you mention keeping the economy going. it's like there is this whole other population of sheep out there the are pavlovian when it comes to sales, marketing and commercials, they read the gun rags, buy into the banter, then spend huge amounts of money just so they can have exactly the flavor of the month. it's a whole different world that I just don't get.

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Old 06-29-2017, 8:28 PM
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I have a FFP Athalon 6x24x50, it's good so far out to 500+ yards, tracks well, only complaint is the light transmission, but for the money it works for me on my 308.

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Old 06-29-2017, 8:50 PM
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I Love my Vortex 6-24x50 FFP PST ... it is one hell of a scope.
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Old 06-29-2017, 10:59 PM
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I have a FFP Athalon 6x24x50, it's good so far out to 500+ yards, tracks well, only complaint is the light transmission, but for the money it works for me on my 308.

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They are good scopes

Comparable - if not better - than the Vortex Viper PST



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Old 07-03-2017, 5:14 PM
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In the interests of full disclosure I'm Kind of a leupold Shill or fan boy

But I just seen the New leupold VX 3i 8.5-25x50mm FFP TMR MSRP is $1299 and i'm sure you can get in on eBay for less. But holy crap FFP for less then my Mk4?? with the same reticle and Mil turrets..

This is what free market competition does. you get companies like Vortex and NF pushing FFP at low prices and it forces older companies to follow suit.
I'll vote SWFA. You can sometimes pick up a nice used 5-20HD for surprisingly cheap. I think I paid $800 for mine, with rings. The glass is very clear, and not just for the money. I took a peek through some much more high end scopes at the URSA shoot in April and while they were slightly clearer, they weren't three times clearer.

If I had to categorize the difference I'd say this, with the SWFA I could see the target and the flag. I could also see the clumps of grass in the sandy soil near the target. With the BEAST and whatever else I looked through I could see all that... but instead of a greenish gray clump of grass I could see some texture too.

YMMV but for me that's good enough.
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Old 08-28-2017, 1:29 PM
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totally new to any type of long range shooting and while i did in the MC. it was with a front sight post. lol..

i must spend a butt load of hours doing research. Forums, you tube.. wow.. there is quite abit to take in.

Stopped by Paul this weekend to see some long distance shooting.. wow.. way not ready.. might have to start small.. 100 yrd.

oh.. so much to learn on scopes. trying to get something that will allow me to someday shoot 600 or so. but won't anytime soon.

Lots of knowledge here.. thanks in advance!!
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Old 08-28-2017, 5:11 PM
kcstott kcstott is offline
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totally new to any type of long range shooting and while i did in the MC. it was with a front sight post. lol..

i must spend a butt load of hours doing research. Forums, you tube.. wow.. there is quite abit to take in.

Stopped by Paul this weekend to see some long distance shooting.. wow.. way not ready.. might have to start small.. 100 yrd.

oh.. so much to learn on scopes. trying to get something that will allow me to someday shoot 600 or so. but won't anytime soon.

Lots of knowledge here.. thanks in advance!!
So you're around here? do you have a .223 or 308 with optics? do you care to spend 3/4's of a day on your old stomping grounds?

If you said yes to any of these questions the Santa Margarita Gun club is for you. with medium range matches at 600 yards and long rand matches at 1000 yards. I've hauled out three guests out there just to get them hooked.

And when i say "Match" it can be as formal and serious as you want. you can come out to lear shoot and ask questions, or you can put your game face on and get serious. it's all up to you. but its a great place and a great way to get started, membership is dirt cheep too.
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Old 08-29-2017, 12:53 PM
Hostile_SS Hostile_SS is offline
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Incoming 6.5 creedmoor. will pm next. not a bolt. lol.. thanks again!
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Old 08-29-2017, 7:29 PM
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smoothy8500 smoothy8500 is offline
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Incoming 6.5 creedmoor. will pm next. not a bolt. lol.. thanks again!
If you want to come out and learn on the next 3x600 midrange I'll offer to let you use my rifle since the 6.5 is currently not approved on Pendleton.
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Old 08-30-2017, 3:43 AM
kcstott kcstott is offline
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Just waiting on full approved adoption of the 6.5CM. USMC is moving faster than the army.

But with new USMC position at the top of the SMGC we should see some action soon,
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Old 08-30-2017, 11:48 AM
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Interesting find. They have it for $999 at Cabela's.
That could have been had for $600.00 shipped during the extra 10% last week with the gift cards and Active Junky. Geesh. Maybe time to save up some gift cards.
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Old 08-30-2017, 12:55 PM
Hostile_SS Hostile_SS is offline
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If you want to come out and learn on the next 3x600 midrange I'll offer to let you use my rifle since the 6.5 is currently not approved on Pendleton.


thanks my present gun is a ar 15. don't get much time outdoors.. (stupid sunlight).. lol..

thanks again. good thing is still in the "research phase". wow.. just wow..

lol

Semper Fi
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Old 08-31-2017, 3:32 AM
kcstott kcstott is offline
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That could have been had for $600.00 shipped during the extra 10% last week with the gift cards and Active Junky. Geesh. Maybe time to save up some gift cards.
thats what i'm getting you can snag one hell of a good deal even at $1K and be doing good, but add in some discounts, free shipping, and it all adds up
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