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Long Distance Shooting Discuss tools, techniques, tips and theories of long distance shooting

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  #1  
Old 10-31-2017, 9:11 AM
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Default Technical aspects of a 5000 yard shot

I posted this on another forum ... figured I should post it here too

Going thru some numbers on a theoretical rifle at 5000 yards using AB app
Specs
375 bullet / 400 gr CE lazer @ 3500 fps could be 375/416, 375/50
Density altitude 0
Wind 0

337.4 MOA
11.8 sec flight time
Altitude at max arc 1400 ft
Standard rifle prone w/ bipod shoulder to bipod length 24"
0 moa rifle (theoretical)

.001" movement at either shoulder or bipod or combination of both during firing is 7.5" deviation at 5000 yards (1 hair is .003")
2 fps difference in load (3502 fps) 337.0 moa .4 moa off = 20.94"
5 fps difference in load (3505 fps) 336.4 moa 1.0 moa off = 52.35"
Combination of .001 shooter deviation and 5fps muzzle velocity 59.85" off

Now throw in a true 1/4 moa rifle and shooting mat that moves around - easily double that.

Then throw in some wind and wind reading from ground level to 1400 ft agl

There's always that pesky dispersion problem too

Don't forget the bigger the gun, the harder it is to handle and shoot

Sounds simple
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  #2  
Old 10-31-2017, 10:14 AM
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Sounds simple . . .

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  #3  
Old 11-01-2017, 5:28 AM
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I am ready to take a shot at 4000
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Old 11-01-2017, 5:42 AM
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All day long if I do my part.
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Old 11-01-2017, 9:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoffer View Post
Altitude at max arc 1400 ft
Ouch.... that could monkey up your wind calls.
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Old 11-02-2017, 3:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnJr View Post
I am ready to take a shot at 4000
I'll bring my 308...

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Old 11-02-2017, 4:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Apollo View Post
I'll bring my 308...

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And 2000 rounds
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Old 11-02-2017, 4:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoffer View Post
And 2000 rounds
Don't forget the 12' x 20' target.

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Old 11-02-2017, 4:28 PM
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Don't forget to pray.
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Old 11-03-2017, 9:44 AM
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Don't forget to pray.
I think I could get a prayer or two in during the 20 second flight time.

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Old 11-03-2017, 1:57 PM
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You forgot to calculate for coriolis effect of the earths spin. This will be dependent on the direction you're shooting in.
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  #12  
Old 11-03-2017, 3:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oktavist View Post
You forgot to calculate for coriolis effect of the earths spin. This will be dependent on the direction you're shooting in.

DOF was not specified but Spin drift / Coriolis was in the calculation
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Old 11-04-2017, 6:16 AM
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Just for comparison sake, here is what is considered to be one of the most accurate tank rounds in existence today, I lifted this quote from another site so here it is.
(For example the Rheinmetall 120mm HE round has shown a maximum 9cm vertical dispersion and a 34 cm lateral one at 2,000 metres for a 5-round group).

So there you have it, 2000m 5 rounds at 9cm vert and 34 lateral. From what I gather, most modern targeting systems (on tanks at least) will not even input a 5000 meter shot.

Question: What is the best documented rifle shot (.50 cal or under) 5 or 10 round group anybody here can show that was shot at 2000 meters or yards, or beyond?
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Last edited by bridgeport; 11-04-2017 at 6:24 AM..
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Old 11-04-2017, 7:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bridgeport View Post
Question: What is the best documented rifle shot (.50 cal or under) 5 or 10 round group anybody here can show that was shot at 2000 meters or yards, or beyond?
There is anecdotal evidence on the URSA website of 2000y 5-7 shot groups less than 100 cm. No one has had a 10 shot group on the 100 cm gong yet. I know the actual groups may have been less than 100 cm; but, in URSA accuracy matters.

Cheers,

Last edited by focus; 11-04-2017 at 7:20 AM..
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Old 11-04-2017, 8:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by focus View Post
There is anecdotal evidence on the URSA website of 2000y 5-7 shot groups less than 100 cm. No one has had a 10 shot group on the 100 cm gong yet. I know the actual groups may have been less than 100 cm; but, in URSA accuracy matters.

Cheers,
Seriously, if accuracy matters in the URSA, they ought to have something more than "Anecdotal" evidence. Documentation matters.
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Old 11-04-2017, 8:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oktavist View Post
You forgot to calculate for coriolis effect of the earths spin. This will be dependent on the direction you're shooting in.
This

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  #17  
Old 11-04-2017, 3:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bridgeport View Post
Seriously, if accuracy matters in the URSA, they ought to have something more than "Anecdotal" evidence. Documentation matters.
The accuracy is documented using gong hits. Groups are used to measure precision. So, it is the group size that is anecdotal.

Cheers,
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Old 11-04-2017, 5:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wpod View Post
This

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Original post

"Going thru some numbers on a theoretical rifle at 5000 yards using AB app"

AB app automatically applies all corrections
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Old 11-04-2017, 6:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by focus View Post
The accuracy is documented using gong hits. Groups are used to measure precision. So, it is the group size that is anecdotal.

Cheers,
I checked out the URSA website, very interesting. In the Gallery section were several pictures of target plates, with multiple strikes evident, however little that would denote one shot from another or shooter from another, or how many rounds were hits Vs misses etc. It would be interesting to see some actual individual targets with rings to get a better sense of what the actual level of accuracy is being achieved. If anybody here has a link/s to some more information on this, I would be interested in seeing it. Bottom line is though, it is very nice to see interested shooters making the effort (and I'm sure it is a lot of work) to get the ball rolling on this.
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Old 11-04-2017, 9:32 PM
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In URSA its a hit or its not. There is a light that triggers when hit. Very reliable

Last edited by Hoffer; 11-04-2017 at 10:25 PM..
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Old 11-04-2017, 10:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bridgeport View Post
If anybody here has a link/s to some more information on this, I would be interested in seeing it.
It would take too much time to change paper targets. This is what a URSA string is like. That particular string wasn't good enough for a win

https://youtu.be/kfxxL48M5GM

Cheers,
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Old 11-05-2017, 6:14 AM
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Why not put up a plate (or paper) with some rings painted on it to represent X, 10, 9, 8, and use something like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAnyljKPVgo

Until you have a scorable target system, a guy is just slinging lead at a plate. I have seen many a guy brag on his hits on a 1000 yard plate, but when you put up a 1000 yard F-class target, the groups are terrible. Then look at the published results of the top F-class shooters at 1k, and you will see why it is so important to have markers to measure actual performance by.
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Last edited by bridgeport; 11-05-2017 at 7:39 AM..
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Old 11-05-2017, 7:50 AM
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In ELR a hit is a hit and a miss is a miss.

I guess you can call the scoring by hits at a certain distance

1000 yard F class you might get 20ft of elevation over flat terrain with flight time of 1.5 seconds

Its a whole different animal when your bullet is travelling 600 ft in the air for 4-5 seconds over varying topography for 2000 yards. Rules change for this type of distance.

URSA runs 10 shot strings with good shooters getting at least 5 out of 10 at 2000 yards minimum.
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Old 11-05-2017, 2:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoffer View Post
In ELR a hit is a hit and a miss is a miss.
Its a whole different animal when your bullet is travelling 600 ft in the air for 4-5 seconds over varying topography for 2000 yards. Rules change for this type of distance.
I have a, how shall I put this, fair bit of experience shooting at distances over 1K in the field, on what most would agree are relatively small targets, and I can assure you that the rules of accuracy do not change for you or me regardless, however this is a common putdown to those who do practice on surveyed ranges and can make the grade. In actuality, my experience has shown that the better one can shoot in proven arena, the better they shoot in open field, period. As I noted before, hits on a plate, and misses off the plate that can only be identified by rudimentary terms, will make for a much longer road, to deriving something amounting to repeatable groups and accuracy which can be banked on when called for. If in practice you are not able to produce repeatable groups, how can you ever hope to improve in your meets/ matches? Hey, if all you want to do is get together in the woods and sling some lead at 2K, have at it, I support that, just not my cup of tea. Whatever the distance, it is always of benefit to have more data, more dope, and more practice. Then again, excuses for lack thereof, do abound.
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Old 11-05-2017, 3:29 PM
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Bridgeport - seems you are missing the intent of URSA shooting, to move the shooters to further and further distances based on accomplishments at nearer distances. If a shooter scores 4 in 10 they move to the next distance (about 500+ yards further down range).

In 30+ events, in 2 1/2 years, the best shooting at a URSA event has been 7 in 10 on a 37" round plate at 2054 yards. And only two shooters have "graduated" to Novice level during that time (5 targets, each with 5 in 10 or better). One of those two shooters averaged 6 in 10 for those 5 targets and the other 5.2 in 10. Those who think this is simple stuff really need to come out to one of our events and show us how its done. We have two events this month on the 19th (one in NorCal and one in SoCal). How about stopping by. I'm the contact for SoCal and Lynn is the contact for NorCal.

More info and stats are on our website - www.unlimitedrange.org
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Old 11-05-2017, 4:26 PM
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URSA, Thank you, I get what you are saying, and as noted I support what you are doing and the work that goes into it. my questions regarding the pursuit, as well as my comments on shooting in general or as a response to misconceptions about "what a bullet does, etc." are not meant to disparage, in fact just the opposite, to encourage a better understanding of what it actually means to shoot for accuracy whatever the distance. That being said, my question to you would be: is there not some expectation for improvement amongst the shooters in the matches, and if so, how do you hope to foster improvement without setting parameters that can show a shooter how to improve? I don't think just shooting a long range match (F class included) does this alone, but using tools such as an F-class target at 1K with a half MOA x ring and MOA 10ring and larger areas to show where shots have gone astray go a long way to helping put the shots where the shooter intends for them to go. In a perfect world, what would be your expectation that the best shooter with the best equipment might be capable of? Half MOA at 2K would be something like 10+ inches, with a 20" 10 ring etc. Anyhow this is just me thinking. -B
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Old 11-05-2017, 7:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bridgeport View Post
In a perfect world, what would be your expectation that the best shooter with the best equipment might be capable of? Half MOA at 2K would be something like 10+ inches, with a 20" 10 ring etc. Anyhow this is just me thinking. -B
Let me guess, your rifle shoots .5 MOA at any distance... if you do your part.

I get the feeling that you've done a lot of reading but not a lot of practice at extended long ranges, which is cool. That's what the long range game is all about, trying new things, seeing what works and what doesn't. It all starts out with an idea. All skill levels are welcome to come and shoot.

Heck, my first time at an URSA event I had never shot beyond 400 yards and I was woefully undergunned. But they helped me get on target and I ended up getting my first hit. It felt amazing.

I'm all for getting more data, but the thing you don't seem to understand is that when you start reaching out really far, small factors like ES become huge. Small wind shifts are make or break. Especially when an infrequent updraught can push your bullet over the top of the target.

A Yes/No scoring system is more than good enough for what we do. While it might be nice to know that our bullet hit slightly high on the target, finding out why it did so would require crunching a ton of data from how fast it was going to real time wind reads along the course for the duration of the shot.

At those distances it's a probability game and currently, that probability hit box is bigger than the target.

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Old 11-05-2017, 8:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bridgeport View Post
URSA, Thank you, I get what you are saying, and as noted I support what you are doing and the work that goes into it. my questions regarding the pursuit, as well as my comments on shooting in general or as a response to misconceptions about "what a bullet does, etc." are not meant to disparage, in fact just the opposite, to encourage a better understanding of what it actually means to shoot for accuracy whatever the distance. That being said, my question to you would be: is there not some expectation for improvement amongst the shooters in the matches, and if so, how do you hope to foster improvement without setting parameters that can show a shooter how to improve? I don't think just shooting a long range match (F class included) does this alone, but using tools such as an F-class target at 1K with a half MOA x ring and MOA 10ring and larger areas to show where shots have gone astray go a long way to helping put the shots where the shooter intends for them to go. In a perfect world, what would be your expectation that the best shooter with the best equipment might be capable of? Half MOA at 2K would be something like 10+ inches, with a 20" 10 ring etc. Anyhow this is just me thinking. -B
I would say 1 moa 5 shot group at 2000 yards would be stunning. No one ever in the KO2M has done that with a 3 shot group and The top 10 are probably much better that the URSA participants.
Read the original post and work backwards in yardage
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