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CGSSA Shoots, Meets and Range Stories Set up and organize shoots and meets and share your shooting range stories.

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  #1  
Old 11-11-2013, 6:28 PM
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Default Range safeties at Santa Clara County Range

Went to the range on Sunday to zero in my iron sights + ACOG on a new upper, and reflex sight on my new AR pistol. After getting everything zeroed on my rifle, I asked one of the range safeties if they minded me taking the AR pistol over to the 25 meter pistol target to zero instead of trying to zero it at 50 yards (no irons on the pistol, just a red dot). He said no problem, we just ask that you don't "put the part with the spring against your shoulder". I took that to mean don't use your buffer tube as a buttstock, thanked him, and walked over to the pistol line.

At the pistol line, I built a pile of sandbags so I could comfortably bench rest the AR pistol and get a good sight picture without touching my shoulder to the buffer tube. After ~20 rounds, a different safety comes over and in a fairly abrasive tone demanded to know if my pistol was registered in CA. I asked him what's up, and he told me it's illegal to touch the buffer tube to any part of my body, even my cheek for a sight picture. I attempted to tell him it was perfectly legal and he said nope, can't touch your body. I explained the other safety officer had merely asked me not to touch the tube to my shoulder, and he reiterated it cannot touch my cheek either.

I was 99% sure he was spreading bad information, and told him he was wrong. He backpedaled a bit when I started getting annoyed and said "well I'm just telling you because we have a lot of law enforcement officers that come shooting here at this range." I told him that's fine, I work with plenty of them regularly. He gave me a dirty look and walked away after that. Fortunately, I'd mostly zeroed by this point so I made one final adjustment, shot my last 3 round group, and packed up to leave.

That was my first time at that range, and probably not the last, but it was a bit aggravating to say the least. I understand AR pistols aren't exactly common - but if you're going to go around telling someone the position they shoot from is illegal, maybe you should brush up on your knowledge before heading back out as a safety officer. The first guy said it much better in that "we'd appreciate if you didn't shoot like this." I got his point in what was said as much as what wasn't said - he didn't think it was illegal, but he'd prefer you don't bend the rules and give someone else cause to hassle you or the range.

Anyway. Cool starry bra. Just a heads up for anyone with an AR or AK pistol heading to Santa Clara County Range.
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  #2  
Old 11-11-2013, 7:32 PM
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I can understand not putting your Glock to your cheek when shooting. But doing so wont magically make your Glock a rifle.

I know its easy to point out uninformed gun store and range employees and even LEO, but can you really blame any of them given both the quantity and quality(lack) of this states gun laws. Keep that in mind when you hear FUD and it wont effect you so much.

I hear this type of silliness at the range and LGS all the time. I don't know how many times I have been told I need a lock on my range bags or that I can't transport my ammo and guns in the same bag or case.

In one ear...
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  #3  
Old 11-11-2013, 7:59 PM
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I spend lots of time at Metcalf (what we locals call SCCR), and to a man the guys there are all good dudes doing their job looking out for YOU and your safety.

So what gives with the pistol? Three things:
1) there is long standing lore that has it an overzealous LEO and his buddies would on occasion visit Metcalf for the sole purpose of causing trouble. They'd walk the line looking for normal capacity mags, "assault weapons", SBRs, etc. And legend has it that one day they cuffed and dragged someone 'downtown' for shouldering an AR pistol.

Did that ever really happen? Hard to say. But the guys there seem to believe it, and don't want to see it happen to someone on their watch.

2) legend aside, is it legal? I think we can agree it sounds like total BS to say its not, but in this state who can tell? Do you want to be the test case that finds out for the rest of us? I know that's a *****ty way to live your life, but none the less concerns such as this are a fact of life in this wonderful state of ours.

3) The range's position (both figuratively and literally) within this INCREDIBLY gun unfriendly area of the state is tenuous, at best. They're constantly under the microscope for things like noise pollution, and environmental impact (deer and turkey will often walk the line of fire; imagine the nightmare politically if one fell?) Did ya know the city doesn't let them allow anyone to put up any target that resembles any living creature? Even the AQT target is borderline and won't pass muster if the wrong people are there that day.

I'm not saying how they spoke to you is ok (wasn't there, dont know how it went down, do know they've always treated me with nothing but respect even when I too shouldered an AR pistol once). But maybe with the points from above in mind, its not hard to understand their position?

I'll ask Jerry or John or Dean or Dave or Mike (or any of the other guys) about this next time I'm there. Maybe one of them was there when the legend was born and know the truth of the matter.
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Last edited by BigJ; 11-12-2013 at 5:27 AM..
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Old 11-11-2013, 8:17 PM
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Give this a read too: https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/...d.php?t=475775. Despite the ok from the fed, it seems at least one CalGun's moderator feels the question is far from answered here in California.
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Last edited by BigJ; 11-12-2013 at 5:22 AM..
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  #5  
Old 11-11-2013, 9:11 PM
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Fair points by all, and pretty much why I didn't argue much just packed up and left. Pistol was giving me issues short stroking anyway. Just thought it'd be worth giving others with similar firearms a heads up. Maybe once I start going there more often and get to know them better they'll relax a bit - I'm sure they know all the regulars with the cool toys heh.

After reading Bill's wiki and the other thread in regards to the side saddle, that's exactly why I was 99% sure I was fine - my pistol tube is the Phase 5 tactical and has no capacity to accept a buttstock even if I wanted to - it's thicker and wider than a normal buffer tube so you can't mount one. I don't have the CAA saddle on it either, but even with that there's nothing saying you can't rest your cheek on the buffer tube and get a good sight picture. I even had a single point sling on it and had it extended out in front of me far from my body to where the edge of the buffer tube was digging into my cheekbone.

One guy I was talking to, Steve Gibson IIRC (name on the side of his ear muffs at any rate) had a couple of really nice Noveskes he was testing ammo with. Said he shot 3 gun and we talked about that a bit - if any of you know him I forgot to get his contact info before we split, but we were going to get together and talk AR pistols and 3 gun and such. The general group of guys I met there were great, didn't see any shady types, nobody smelled like weed unlike a couple of the times I've been to other ranges (though to be fair, they didn't even make it to the firing line - just got summarily shown the door).
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Old 11-11-2013, 9:43 PM
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I hate when you can't just shoot in peace.
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  #7  
Old 11-11-2013, 9:51 PM
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Search Calguns. Scour this forum for ANY fault you can find about Metcalf. This is it. Unfriendly to silhouette targets and AR type pistols (and apparently they leave you alone if you shoot it like regular pistols.

Given the crap you get to deal with for every other bay area range (including BLM), Metcalf tops the list for the best local ranges.

I don't begrudge them at all. My favorite range here. I don't want them to change a bit. (even after I build an AR type pistol)
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Old 11-11-2013, 10:01 PM
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Good to hear. I did search and didn't see anything so I was hesitant to post it, and I'd like to be clear and reiterate I'm not blasting the range in general. It's a little more convenient to get to than Los Altos, has a good mix of rifle, pistol, shotgun, etc., and I'm not too concerned about them not letting me put up silhouette targets - I use Shoot N Sees 99% of the time I'm shooting.

Maybe we should plan a Calguns range day meetup there and bring all the fun toys. I'm not at all worried about overzealous/uneducated law enforcement officials and have faith that the rest of them there are more knowledgeable. The guys behind the counter were nice and polite, and one even came and got me when I didn't hear my name called for an open lane (they were waitlisted and busy when I was there). I appreciated that.
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  #9  
Old 11-12-2013, 7:36 AM
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I can't stand dealing with range operator/officers/ whatever they are called.

Granted they have a valid role on the range to monitor unsafe or dangerous behavior.

That role seems to have morphed into being the local busybody whose job it is to grossly misunderstand laws and spread their confused FUD at the range.

I believe these people often have a grotesquely inflated view of their own expertise, and I find even the shortest conversation irritating. I find that they often forget that not everyone at the range is a beginner, and people that come from .mil or LEO backgrounds don't really want advice from some bearded coot in a yellow hat who used to hunt deer in the 70's.

I see these guys as equals to the marshals at the local golf course. Old, fat, retired busybodys who are just there for the free golf and who drive around in the golf cart drinking coffee and busting everyone's chops.
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Old 11-12-2013, 7:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby Ricigliano View Post
I can't stand dealing with range operator/officers/ whatever they are called.

Granted they have a valid role on the range to monitor unsafe or dangerous behavior.

That role seems to have morphed into being the local busybody whose job it is to grossly misunderstand laws and spread their confused FUD at the range.

I believe these people often have a grotesquely inflated view of their own expertise, and I find even the shortest conversation irritating. I find that they often forget that not everyone at the range is a beginner, and people that come from .mil or LEO backgrounds don't really want advice from some bearded coot in a yellow hat who used to hunt deer in the 70's.

I see these guys as equals to the marshals at the local golf course. Old, fat, retired busybodys who are just there for the free golf and who drive around in the golf cart drinking coffee and busting everyone's chops.
Huh. My experience says just the opposite. There are exceptions of course, but in general it seems if I approach them with a smile, handshake and some respect usually they're all to happy to return it 10x.
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Old 11-12-2013, 7:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby Ricigliano View Post
I can't stand dealing with range operator/officers/ whatever they are called.

Granted they have a valid role on the range to monitor unsafe or dangerous behavior.

That role seems to have morphed into being the local busybody whose job it is to grossly misunderstand laws and spread their confused FUD at the range.

I believe these people often have a grotesquely inflated view of their own expertise, and I find even the shortest conversation irritating. I find that they often forget that not everyone at the range is a beginner, and people that come from .mil or LEO backgrounds don't really want advice from some bearded coot in a yellow hat who used to hunt deer in the 70's.

I see these guys as equals to the marshals at the local golf course. Old, fat, retired busybodys who are just there for the free golf and who drive around in the golf cart drinking coffee and busting everyone's chops.
I have experienced that, but in this case the RO was looking out for the shooter even if the RO was 99% wrong. Which means he might be right. .mil and LEO don't know everything.

I much prefer shooting in the sticks.
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Old 11-12-2013, 8:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby Ricigliano View Post
I can't stand dealing with range operator/officers/ whatever they are called.

Granted they have a valid role on the range to monitor unsafe or dangerous behavior.

That role seems to have morphed into being the local busybody whose job it is to grossly misunderstand laws and spread their confused FUD at the range.

I believe these people often have a grotesquely inflated view of their own expertise, and I find even the shortest conversation irritating. I find that they often forget that not everyone at the range is a beginner, and people that come from .mil or LEO backgrounds don't really want advice from some bearded coot in a yellow hat who used to hunt deer in the 70's.

I see these guys as equals to the marshals at the local golf course. Old, fat, retired busybodys who are just there for the free golf and who drive around in the golf cart drinking coffee and busting everyone's chops.
While I do agree on many of these points... Many of our other ranges always seem to have new range officers who tend to follow your perception. However Metcalf, the range in question, has very knowledgeable and creditable range officers who are regulars. One was a former Marine and another a Medic in Korea, Dean and Mike I think? Very nice guys.
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Old 11-12-2013, 8:54 AM
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Originally Posted by icormba View Post
While I do agree on many of these points... Many of our other ranges always seem to have new range officers who tend to follow your perception. However Metcalf, the range in question, has very knowledgeable and creditable range officers who are regulars. One was a former Marine and another a Medic in Korea, Dean and Mike I think? Very nice guys.
I have never been to the range in question and my response is a general perception not based on one range. I have a particular dislike for unsolicited advice, but I acknowledge that a range reserves the right to have whatever rules they like. Obviously there are range guys who ALSO come from .mil or LE backgrounds, but something tells me they aren't the problem. I know better from my own past .mil and LE experience not to unnecessarily meddle in the affairs of others on the range unless it is a safety violation.

I think it might be better if the RO assumes that the shooter understands what is legal and safe until proven otherwise. Unfortunately I think the opposite is often the case and you get a condescending attitude that many people will find offensive.

Solution: I do almost all my shooting in the desert. Otherwise I frequent ranges where the staff is friendly and safety minded without being busybodies. I do not want to be lumped in with people like some of the idiots I have seen at Burro Canyon who have no muzzle discipline and cannot resist the urge to repeatedly d**k around with their weapons during line breaks.

Last edited by Bobby Ricigliano; 11-12-2013 at 8:58 AM..
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Old 11-12-2013, 9:03 AM
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Quote:
I have a particular dislike for unsolicited advice,
I think that is immature.

Quote:
I think it might be better if the RO assumes that the shooter understands what is legal and safe until proven otherwise.
The RO in question did just that. He related a common understanding of the law, right or wrong.

I hate to be told what to do, and I know I don't know everything. It is compromise that works everywhere.
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Old 11-12-2013, 9:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ritchie8719 View Post
I think that is immature.
unsolicited advice from peers sucks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby Ricigliano View Post
I can't stand dealing with range operator/officers/ whatever they are called.

Granted they have a valid role on the range to monitor unsafe or dangerous behavior.

That role seems to have morphed into being the local busybody whose job it is to grossly misunderstand laws and spread their confused FUD at the range.

I believe these people often have a grotesquely inflated view of their own expertise, and I find even the shortest conversation irritating. I find that they often forget that not everyone at the range is a beginner, and people that come from .mil or LEO backgrounds don't really want advice from some bearded coot in a yellow hat who used to hunt deer in the 70's.

I see these guys as equals to the marshals at the local golf course. Old, fat, retired busybodys who are just there for the free golf and who drive around in the golf cart drinking coffee and busting everyone's chops.
Says the guy from Southern California. Your babbling may hold water with our public ranges in the santa cruz mountains, but not Metcalf. Take your generalities elsewhere.
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Old 11-12-2013, 9:55 AM
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Quote:
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I think that is immature.
Perhaps the next time you are shooting and minding your own business when somebody taps you on the shoulder to offer you pointers or a critique, you will think differently.
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Old 11-12-2013, 9:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Whiterabbit View Post
unsolicited advice from peers sucks.



Says the guy from Southern California. Your babbling may hold water with our public ranges in the santa cruz mountains, but not Metcalf. Take your generalities elsewhere.
I think I will leave them right here, but thanks for the unsolicited advice.
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Old 11-12-2013, 10:33 AM
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Mods, let's lock this before it gets any further. Point has been made, clarified, and briefly discussed. Further discussion is already in PMs.
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Bureaucracy is the epoxy that lubricates the gears of progress.
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