***Magpul Dynamics Class San Jose 3-5, 2010 PIX HEAVY***

[tomd1584]

Originally Posted by racky

2 questions:

1. what's a raw?
2. mil is allowed to run without a BB?

the only thing stopping me from runnin a carbine class is because i don't want to go featurless. if 2 is a yes, i'm signing up for the next one stat!

EDIT: third question: is the a "wink" as in "wink wink." PM me

I believe if you are military from another state, you can register your weapon as an assault weapon while you are instate.

RAW= registered assault weapon

[BigAL]

A few questions:

1. What was the round count for pistol/ rifle?
2. How did the guns holdup? Malfunctions?
3.What did you learn?

[Barney Gumble]

Originally Posted by racky

the only thing stopping me from runnin a carbine class is because i don't want to go featurless. if 2 is a yes, i'm signing up for the next one stat!

If you're stationed in CA I believe you can apply for a military assault weapons permit (MAWP) but you should ask over in the 2A forum.

If you can't get an MAWP it's not that big a deal. Running featureless really isn't a significant handicap at all. It's definitely not significant enough to keep anyone from attending a good class.

[ColdC]

Originally Posted by BigAL

A few questions:

1. What was the round count for pistol/ rifle?
2. How did the guns holdup? Malfunctions?
3.What did you learn?

I ran about 1600 rds rifle and 120 pistol. I think most guys ran more pistol but due to timely tactical reloads I probably transitioned less than some guys.
Overall everyone's guns ran well. A few guys had some double feed problems and I had one FTE that took me off the line so I could punch it out, but almost everyone was running consistently. The only person's gun that continued to have problems was Chris Costa's.
I learned so much that it will be impossible to retain it all in order to practice it, but for example, I further refined how I personally carry gear; I've changed the position I hold when I reload and deal with malfunctions; I've refined my grip and stance; practiced quickly transitioning into an "urban prone" position; think differently about how to move while simultaneously shooting; shooting over, under, around, and through gaps in barricades taking onto account sight over bore issues; got really valuable experience shooting while other shooters are shooting from down range in front of you and from behind you and how you move across a range of live fire while keeping control of your muzzle so that you don't sweep other shooters; hearing Chris & Travis's opinions as to what works and what doesn't in real firefights.......I could go on but that's a start.
Excellent class and I'll be back for the next one in November.

[racky]

Originally Posted by Barney Gumble

If you're stationed in CA I believe you can apply for a military assault weapons permit (MAWP) but you should ask over in the 2A forum.

highly unlikely! we're mandated to wear a reflective vest when on a motorcycle in the daytime. we're also mandated to wear reflective belts at night while walking down a sidewalk. i'll have better odds playing russing roulette with a semi-auto and surviving than trying to get a letter for an assault weapon signed off.

[vandal]

WHATTTT??????

Originally Posted by SpeedRock

Kinda off topic, but why do so many people think that Haley and Costa are rock stars? They're good shooters and instructors, but it's almost like some people view them as deities.

[Barney Gumble]

Originally Posted by racky

highly unlikely! we're mandated to wear a reflective vest when on a motorcycle in the daytime. we're also mandated to wear reflective belts at night while walking down a sidewalk. i'll have better odds playing russing roulette with a semi-auto and surviving than trying to get a letter for an assault weapon signed off.

HUH??

This is off-topic so let's take it to a new thread if it needs more discussion but in the meantime read up, I did your research for you:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...highlight=mawp
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...highlight=mawp

[Jim_KT]

Originally Posted by ColdC

I ran about 1600 rds rifle and 120 pistol. I think most guys ran more pistol but due to timely tactical reloads I probably transitioned less than some guys.
Overall everyone's guns ran well. A few guys had some double feed problems and I had one FTE that took me off the line so I could punch it out, but almost everyone was running consistently. The only person's gun that continued to have problems was Chris Costa's.
I learned so much that it will be impossible to retain it all in order to practice it, but for example, I further refined how I personally carry gear; I've changed the position I hold when I reload and deal with malfunctions; I've refined my grip and stance; practiced quickly transitioning into an "urban prone" position; think differently about how to move while simultaneously shooting; shooting over, under, around, and through gaps in barricades taking onto account sight over bore issues; got really valuable experience shooting while other shooters are shooting from down range in front of you and from behind you and how you move across a range of live fire while keeping control of your muzzle so that you don't sweep other shooters; hearing Chris & Travis's opinions as to what works and what doesn't in real firefights.......I could go on but that's a start.
Excellent class and I'll be back for the next one in November.

Thanks for the info. Pictures are great, but I like reading about other peoples' experiences and lessons learned.

Are you now "driving" the gun more with your support arm extending as far out on the handguard as possible?

[SpeedRock]

Originally Posted by JohnnyRooks

Originally Posted by Jim_KT

Thanks for the info. Pictures are great, but I like reading about other peoples' experiences and lessons learned.

Are you now "driving" the gun more with your support arm extending as far out on the handguard as possible?

From what I gathered, both Chris and Travis are proponents for longer rails, but that didn't necessarily mean to put your vert grip or afg all the way out there. Obviously because of their light set ups it isn't ideal to put the grips out past them, but they can still drive the gun really well because their support hands are as high as they can get them in relation to the bore.

I learned to "drive" the rifle from taking one of Kyle Lambs classes, and I found it somewhat awkward to reach out where I normally would if I was completely squared off to the target. Magpul Dynamics teaches more of a squared off stance compared to Kyle's "fighting stance". I had to rearrange my rifle a few times to get comfortable. I'm still practicing Magpuls stance.

I learned a great deal from taking that class. I especially enjoyed the mindset portion on the second day and the story Travis told us about complacency. I really liked how they explained and taught movement. It made more sense to me than any other class I've taken with movement in it. I really enjoyed getting their perspective in running a carbine and I've been practicing a lot of what I learned so I can retain it. I don't agree with everything that was taught, but I'm not going to disregard it and not practice it. Who knows, it may save my bacon one day.

[speed28]

so no one was running BB during this class?

[Jim_KT]

Originally Posted by SpeedRock

From what I gathered, both Chris and Travis are proponents for longer rails, but that didn't necessarily mean to put your vert grip or afg all the way out there. Obviously because of their light set ups it isn't ideal to put the grips out past them, but they can still drive the gun really well because their support hands are as high as they can get them in relation to the bore.

I learned to "drive" the rifle from taking one of Kyle Lambs classes, and I found it somewhat awkward to reach out where I normally would if I was completely squared off to the target. Magpul Dynamics teaches more of a squared off stance compared to Kyle's "fighting stance". I had to rearrange my rifle a few times to get comfortable. I'm still practicing Magpuls stance.

I learned a great deal from taking that class. I especially enjoyed the mindset portion on the second day and the story Travis told us about complacency. I really liked how they explained and taught movement. It made more sense to me than any other class I've taken with movement in it. I really enjoyed getting their perspective in running a carbine and I've been practicing a lot of what I learned so I can retain it. I don't agree with everything that was taught, but I'm not going to disregard it and not practice it. Who knows, it may save my bacon one day.

Thanks for the feedback. If you don't mind me asking, what is their philosophy with shooting and movement? From what I've seen in the videos, they have students post up after movement to get their shots off and not so much shoot-on-the-move.

I'm with you on trying to implement what the instructors teach during class in order to get a good perspective as to why they have you doing things a certain way. After class is when we're supposed to decide what works for us.

[Rukus]

Originally Posted by JohnnyRooks

Thats a muzzle brake right? And a pinned stock?

[ColdC]

Originally Posted by Jim_KT

Thanks for the info. Pictures are great, but I like reading about other peoples' experiences and lessons learned.

Are you now "driving" the gun more with your support arm extending as far out on the handguard as possible?

I was already using a magpul AFG before the class and extending my support arm almost to the end of the handguard. Chris rotated my grip a little further up the side of the handguard which locked my elbow out a little straighter. Just a subtle change. I really like the AFG and as a bonus they handed out free AFGs to all the students. Now I have an extra for my next AR.

[ColdC]

Originally Posted by Jim_KT

Thanks for the feedback. If you don't mind me asking, what is their philosophy with shooting and movement? From what I've seen in the videos, they have students post up after movement to get their shots off and not so much shoot-on-the-move.

I'm with you on trying to implement what the instructors teach during class in order to get a good perspective as to why they have you doing things a certain way. After class is when we're supposed to decide what works for us.

They are more advocates of quickly moving to where you need to be and taking your shot. Situation dictates what is necessary. We also worked on shooting while moving. They just aren't so into the traditional "Groucho Marx" run and gun method which is just really unnatural and probably very unrealistic if you are taking fire. I agree with them. If you think about it, in other basic classes that I've taken, when guys are doing the Groucho duck walk they tend not to shoot until they start getting close to the target anyway. If I were advancing aggressively toward a source of fire it won't be with a steady heel to toe.....

[racky]

okay i got a "poor man" question: do you get to keep the brass at the end of the class or do you have to ninja them into your pocket when nobody is looking

[ColdC]

Originally Posted by racky

okay i got a "poor man" question: do you get to keep the brass at the end of the class or do you have to ninja them into your pocket when nobody is looking

Absolutely worst part of the class. We had to pick up the brass after 3 days of shooting. Had to be at least 40,000 casings out there, probably more. There were a few reloaders in the class that were happily taking home buckets, bags, boxes full.
You are more than welcome to come out on the last day of the next class in November and pick up my share so I can go home.

[esskay]

Originally Posted by SpeedRock

I learned to "drive" the rifle from taking one of Kyle Lambs classes, and I found it somewhat awkward to reach out where I normally would if I was completely squared off to the target. Magpul Dynamics teaches more of a squared off stance compared to Kyle's "fighting stance". I had to rearrange my rifle a few times to get comfortable. I'm still practicing Magpuls stance.

I learned a great deal from taking that class. I especially enjoyed the mindset portion on the second day and the story Travis told us about complacency. I really liked how they explained and taught movement. It made more sense to me than any other class I've taken with movement in it. I really enjoyed getting their perspective in running a carbine and I've been practicing a lot of what I learned so I can retain it. I don't agree with everything that was taught, but I'm not going to disregard it and not practice it. Who knows, it may save my bacon one day.

Where did you train with Kyle, did you go out of state? Haven't seen much on the calendar in CA for VTAC, they canceled the SoCal class they had on the docket last year (that one was going to be taught by Mike Pannone).

It is interesting to see the various techniques and styles from different instructors with varying backgrounds. I see some common themes amongst the Delta guys like Lamb, very aggressive/offensive & heavy focus on getting hits quickly and accurately perhaps more so than defensive concerns (example -- attaching to cover with reverse kneel vs standing off cover with outside knee down).

[USM0083]

Originally Posted by ColdC

Absolutely worst part of the class. We had to pick up the brass after 3 days of shooting. Had to be at least 40,000 casings out there, probably more. There were a few reloaders in the class that were happily taking home buckets, bags, boxes full.
You are more than welcome to come out on the last day of the next class in November and pick up my share so I can go home.

I was picking up brass on the right side of the range, where the standing water was...

[USM0083]

Originally Posted by ColdC

They are more advocates of quickly moving to where you need to be and taking your shot. Situation dictates what is necessary. We also worked on shooting while moving. They just aren't so into the traditional "Groucho Marx" run and gun method which is just really unnatural and probably very unrealistic if you are taking fire. I agree with them. If you think about it, in other basic classes that I've taken, when guys are doing the Groucho duck walk they tend not to shoot until they start getting close to the target anyway. If I were advancing aggressively toward a source of fire it won't be with a steady heel to toe.....

What I got from them was that they didn't care how your lower body moved, as long as the upper body was stable.

Here's what I ran:



16" CMMG Middy with a Troy 10" rail, Troy BUIS and a XPS-2.

I had three failure to feeds, starting on day two, which I attribute to dirty mags (mud).

[SpeedRock]

Originally Posted by esskay

Where did you train with Kyle, did you go out of state? Haven't seen much on the calendar in CA for VTAC, they canceled the SoCal class they had on the docket last year (that one was going to be taught by Mike Pannone).

It is interesting to see the various techniques and styles from different instructors with varying backgrounds. I see some common themes amongst the Delta guys like Lamb, very aggressive/offensive & heavy focus on getting hits quickly and accurately perhaps more so than defensive concerns (example -- attaching to cover with reverse kneel vs standing off cover with outside knee down).

I took his carbine 1.5 class at Metcalf in Dec of '08. I hope to take street fighter and night fighter this year or early in 2011. I may have to travel to NC for it, but perhaps it's possible to get VTAC back in the Bay Area relatively soon.

The reverse kneel that Lamb teaches is dependent on the circumstances. He doesn't advocate using the firing hand knee to be exposed at shorter distances, but if your 200yards out and your engaging a target while behind cover, why not push your elbow into your knee and use it to steady your shot? It works very well.

I really liked Lamb's stuff, and his co-instructor was also an active Delta assaulter. They're tactics and techniques are very aggressive, but so is magpul dynamics. It's meant to be aggressive. Costa said something that made perfect sense to me, basically he said that shooting is offensive. As soon as you start engaging someone or something it becomes an offensive act.

[SpeedRock]

Originally Posted by USM0083

I was picking up brass on the right side of the range, where the standing water was...

At least you didn't have to stand there during the majority of the three days.............

[nrvnqsrxk]

I want to join a class! Gah must graduate and get a job

[USM0083]

Originally Posted by SpeedRock

At least you didn't have to stand there during the majority of the three days.............

I got lucky at position #18, where it was mostly dry.

[5150bronco]

that is really awesome. jealous for sure. I hope I could do this next one.

[lehn20]

Kyle Lamb and VTAC do come to CA. They do alot for SJPD. Once in a while there are some open classes.
His real world experience far surpasses the Magpul guys.

Tigerswan is another little known training group, that is founded by a Delta guy and employs former D boys. The experience level for Tigerswans instructors is higher than anywhere else in the industry.

Magpul does an outstanding job. But dont be fooled by slick pr/marketing and gadgets. Lots of kool aid drinkers out there. Dont get tunnel vision

Train all over. Take what works for you. It is all about putting useful tools in the toolbox.

[JohnnyRooks]

Originally Posted by USM0083

I got lucky at position #18, where it was mostly dry.

i was standing in the gravel and it sucks during urban prone and prone position. i have several cuts in my palm after i forgot to wear my gloves.

curse these Magpul Class.. my oldest kid is the hospital and my wife and our little baby is now sick. (they will be fine btw just caught a virus)

i'm not bringing them next time.. but it's all worth it considering it's my first time..

[JohnnyRooks]

edit..

[Bowser]

Hey cool pics. I came by the second day during pistol drills to watch my 2 friends (one of them LEO). Looked fun.

[Aftermath686]

Originally Posted by lehn20

Kyle Lamb and VTAC do come to CA. They do alot for SJPD. Once in a while there are some open classes.
His real world experience far surpasses the Magpul guys.

Tigerswan is another little known training group, that is founded by a Delta guy and employs former D boys. The experience level for Tigerswans instructors is higher than anywhere else in the industry.

Magpul does an outstanding job. But dont be fooled by slick pr/marketing and gadgets. Lots of kool aid drinkers out there. Dont get tunnel vision

Train all over. Take what works for you. It is all about putting useful tools in the toolbox.

There are a ton of Kyle Lamb coolaid drinkers as well. On a side note Chris and Travis BOTH have plenty of real world experience, Travis's being more documented.

[lehn20]

Maybe u need to re-read my post. I never said they didnt have any real world experience. I am well aware of who Travis and Chris have worked for. Working for BW doing PSD doesnt really make you a world class instructor though, or put you in a BTDT catagory like Vickers, Lamb, Howe, Searcy, Foor etc.

But as also stated above, Magpul has a good reputation for solid training, all I said was for people to keep an open mind.

[evidens83]

Good stuff. Cant wait to do a carbine class eventually someday.

[JamesY]

I might have to go next time. How much was it?

[USM0083]

Originally Posted by JamesY

I might have to go next time. How much was it?

$600.00 for Dynamic Carbine 1.

[titus7]

K Ive been signed up for the Pistol class in Oct but would really like to take the carbine classes. I am a little hesitant because I run the bullet button Im not LEO or Mil and I dont wanna get laughed off the firing line for a stupid @$$ California rule. Has anyone ran a BB in these classes??

[esskay]

Originally Posted by titus7

K Ive been signed up for the Pistol class in Oct but would really like to take the carbine classes. I am a little hesitant because I run the bullet button Im not LEO or Mil and I dont wanna get laughed off the firing line for a stupid @$$ California rule. Has anyone ran a BB in these classes??

Yes, there were several guys in my class running BBs. Also guys with featureless rifles have taken these kinds of classes (you should consider this too). Either way, you won't regret taking the class, they will help you run whatever you got more efficiently.

[titus7]

So your not standing there on the firing line by your self while fumbling around with your bullet button thats attached to a ripcord lanyard clipped to your belt? Not to mention the Radio Flyer wagon that your pulling behind you full of 10rnd Pmags just to carry the required ammo that everyone else is carrying on their vest?

[titus7]

Im already signed up for the Dynamic Handgun in October which handguns arent an issue. Its just those Damn California laws restricting our freedoms that gets to me...ya know

[esskay]

Originally Posted by titus7

So your not standing there on the firing line by your self while fumbling around with your bullet button thats attached to a ripcord lanyard clipped to your belt? Not to mention the Radio Flyer wagon that your pulling behind you full of 10rnd Pmags just to carry the required ammo that everyone else is carrying on their vest?

I wasn't, I've been in CA a loong time... But those other guys were, until they started figuring out how to run their BBs right quick! Lanyards around neck and wrist, IIRC. This, however, is one reason I like featureless builds over BB builds for this type of usage.

And yes, guys with 10 rounders were carrying a LOT of mags on their body! Dump pouches can also be handy for that sort of situation to feed your mag carriers. Truth is though, I've found in most classes that loading breaks were more than frequent enough (ETA - in Magpul classes, you will benefit from having more rather than less mags though!).

[titus7]

But for a featureless I would have to have a pinned muzzlebrake, pinned stock, and a monsterman right? Guess that would be a little better than having to use the maglock.

What was the best Idea or usage of the bullet button that you/anyone would suggest or that you/anyone has seen? Maybe we could get a Bullet Button "how-to" on the best ways to deploy and use the bullet button?!?!? EHHH

[esskay]

Not sure what "evil features" you have on your rifle but yes to the muzzle brake, though you don't need to pin it unless needed to make your barrel length 16+" (fed law). Yes fixed stock (pinned or otherwise). Yes to non-pistol grip (monsterman, or U-15, or hammerhead, or Solar Tactical grip wrap)