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  #1  
Old 01-22-2019, 12:53 PM
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Default Dumb question; .308 vs .308 Match Brass

I'm sure I already know the answer but I'm going to ask the question;

I gave away a ton of once fired brass with the intent to stick with one brand.

I've found brass in both .308 Winchester and .308 Winchester Match

The rifle I plan to purchase brass for has a .308 Winchester Match chamber, and was built by Spartan Precision (stupid accurate rifle).

I've shot FGMM .308 with great results.

I've reloaded my own .308 recipe with .308 brass and achieved slightly better than great results.

The reason for .308 Winchester Match, I assume, is that the brass is a closer match to my chamber vs fire forming .308 brass, correct?

So is it then just a marketing gimmick to ask more for .308 Winchester Match than .308 Winchester
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my gun shoots better with shiny brass...plus not only does the shiny brass make me look like a pimp at the range if the sun catches it just right it blinds the guy next to me which improves my odds of winning the match.
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  #2  
Old 01-22-2019, 1:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Kwikvette View Post
The reason for .308 Winchester Match, I assume, is that the brass is a closer match to my chamber vs fire forming .308 brass, correct?

So is it then just a marketing gimmick to ask more for .308 Winchester Match than .308 Winchester
Depending on the "Match" reamer spec, your chamber may be tighter in the body/shoulder (Obermeyer), tight-neck, or have a different throat/leade (95 Palma, M118 Match). What is your "Match" chambering spec?

As for the brass, supposedly some mfr are more stringent in weight and thickness of the brass. Others such as LC, Match basically means there is no primer crimp or uses OTM projectile.

Sticking to one mfr of brass makes sense regardless. At least you will find one load and be consistent. Peterson seems to be the new standard for quality brass.

Last edited by smoothy8500; 01-22-2019 at 1:35 PM..
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Old 01-22-2019, 2:23 PM
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The reason for .308 Winchester Match, I assume, is that the brass is a closer match to my chamber vs fire forming .308 brass, correct?
No.

Match brass is supposed to be more consistent throughout a lot than standard brass.
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  #4  
Old 01-22-2019, 2:49 PM
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Originally Posted by smoothy8500 View Post
Depending on the "Match" reamer spec, your chamber may be tighter in the body/shoulder (Obermeyer), tight-neck, or have a different throat/leade (95 Palma, M118 Match). What is your "Match" chambering spec?

As for the brass, supposedly some mfr are more stringent in weight and thickness of the brass. Others such as LC, Match basically means there is no primer crimp or uses OTM projectile.

Sticking to one mfr of brass makes sense regardless. At least you will find one load and be consistent. Peterson seems to be the new standard for quality brass.
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Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
No.

Match brass is supposed to be more consistent throughout a lot than standard brass.
So then 'Match' brass is marketed the same way as 'Match' ammo; more consistent overall vs non-match.

I guess it'll just be safe to buy something like Peterson brass for my .308, and I can just ignore the 'Match' part since quality brass will be much more consistent anyway.

I've got a lot of Nosler that I've had great success with in my .300wm

We can put this thread to rest then; I only asked because I happen to own (and have seen online), .308 Match chamberings.
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my gun shoots better with shiny brass...plus not only does the shiny brass make me look like a pimp at the range if the sun catches it just right it blinds the guy next to me which improves my odds of winning the match.
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  #5  
Old 01-22-2019, 3:02 PM
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buy better brass and do not drink the match coolaid...its the same brass with fancy box
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Old 01-22-2019, 3:51 PM
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buy better brass and do not drink the match coolaid...its the same brass with fancy box
As long as it's shiny right
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my gun shoots better with shiny brass...plus not only does the shiny brass make me look like a pimp at the range if the sun catches it just right it blinds the guy next to me which improves my odds of winning the match.
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Old 01-22-2019, 5:26 PM
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So out of curiosity, what chamber spec is your rifle?
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Old 01-22-2019, 5:30 PM
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Originally Posted by smoothy8500 View Post
So out of curiosity, what chamber spec is your rifle?
Can find out tomorrow.
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my gun shoots better with shiny brass...plus not only does the shiny brass make me look like a pimp at the range if the sun catches it just right it blinds the guy next to me which improves my odds of winning the match.
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Full size. Stubbies are for sissies.
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  #9  
Old 01-22-2019, 8:23 PM
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Most standard match chambers Ive seen are just a longer throat to load the long skinny bullets out as far as possible.
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Old 01-23-2019, 4:26 AM
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As long as it's shiny right
shinny brass is better than match brass any day.
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  #11  
Old 01-23-2019, 6:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kwikvette View Post

The reason for .308 Winchester Match, I assume, is that the brass is a closer match to my chamber vs fire forming .308 brass, correct?

So is it then just a marketing gimmick to ask more for .308 Winchester Match than .308 Winchester
It depends on the brass. LC Match is marginally better than plain LC as far as weight consistency goes. LC Match from the 60ís is far an away better.

But then there Hornady and Hornady Match with absolutely zero difference between them other than the headstamp.
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Old 01-23-2019, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by MongooseV8 View Post
Most standard match chambers Ive seen are just a longer throat to load the long skinny bullets out as far as possible.
Or in the case of a 308, shorter than normal if they are setup for 155's.
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Old 01-23-2019, 5:12 PM
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It seems a lot of shooters with "Match" chambers don't know exactly what chamber they have or what the specs mean.
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Old 01-23-2019, 6:00 PM
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Originally Posted by smoothy8500 View Post
It seems a lot of shooters with "Match" chambers don't know exactly what chamber they have or what the specs mean.
I have 6 or 7 different 308 match reamers.
I have marked the throat length and the neck diameter on each of the reamer tubes.
I select a reamer based on asking the customer what ammo or bullets they want to run.
I log what reamer I used on their build sheet.
Any of my customers can request that info later if they didn't take a picture of their build sheet on the build day.
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Old 01-23-2019, 6:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothy8500 View Post
It seems a lot of shooters with "Match" chambers don't know exactly what chamber they have or what the specs mean.
I like the 1995 Palma chamber for 308.
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  #16  
Old 01-23-2019, 6:30 PM
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Kwikvette, if I recall correctly, you go by "buy once cry once," at least when it comes to reloading stuff.

In that case, just get Lapua or Peterson brass. These are match grade whether or not they are branded as such.
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Old 01-23-2019, 11:16 PM
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Quote:
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Or in the case of a 308, shorter than normal if they are setup for 155's.
True, good point.
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  #18  
Old 01-24-2019, 3:30 PM
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When I prep Federal match brass or LC match brass, the weight variation was within .5 grains among cartridge cases. I think consistency is an important fact in match grade items than anything else.
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Old 01-24-2019, 5:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothy8500 View Post
It seems a lot of shooters with "Match" chambers don't know exactly what chamber they have or what the specs mean.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
I have 6 or 7 different 308 match reamers.
I have marked the throat length and the neck diameter on each of the reamer tubes.
I select a reamer based on asking the customer what ammo or bullets they want to run.
I log what reamer I used on their build sheet.
Any of my customers can request that info later if they didn't take a picture of their build sheet on the build day.
The chambering/throat is 30 thousandths longer and as you stated Randall, meant for FGMM 175gr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmykan View Post
Kwikvette, if I recall correctly, you go by "buy once cry once," at least when it comes to reloading stuff.

In that case, just get Lapua or Peterson brass. These are match grade whether or not they are branded as such.
You are correct sir, and I will be ordering some Peterson brass.
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my gun shoots better with shiny brass...plus not only does the shiny brass make me look like a pimp at the range if the sun catches it just right it blinds the guy next to me which improves my odds of winning the match.
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  #20  
Old 01-25-2019, 9:54 AM
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The chambering/throat is 30 thousandths longer and as you stated Randall, meant for FGMM 175gr.
30 thousandths longer than what?
A potato?
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  #21  
Old 01-25-2019, 10:50 AM
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30 thousandths longer than what?
A potato?
Than a brown russet potato to be exact.

I assume longer than what the chambering was from the factory? Firearm in question is a Remington 700 in .308
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my gun shoots better with shiny brass...plus not only does the shiny brass make me look like a pimp at the range if the sun catches it just right it blinds the guy next to me which improves my odds of winning the match.
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Old 01-26-2019, 9:05 PM
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I bought 100 cases of star line 308 SPP MATCH brass and it shot outstanding. I am watching for more on sale. Their 223 brass also shot great.
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Old 01-27-2019, 5:47 AM
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Quote:
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Than a brown russet potato to be exact.

I assume longer than what the chambering was from the factory? Firearm in question is a Remington 700 in .308
Prolly not. Remmy chambers are pretty long. It took my Sako 5500 rounds to erode to the length of a new Remmy chamber.
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Old 01-28-2019, 11:44 AM
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I assume longer than what the chambering was from the factory? Firearm in question is a Remington 700 in .308
I sure hope not as that would be longer than any 308 match throat ever cut.
Factory throats are horribly long which is why we rebarrel with shorter throats that make for better accuracy.
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Old 01-28-2019, 12:04 PM
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It seems a lot of shooters with "Match" chambers don't know exactly what chamber they have or what the specs mean.
Well, we saw a pretty good example of uncertainty...and according to many owners they are all "optimized for FGMM" ammo too. However, which FGMM? What about the projectile-SMK or Berger? Consider asking a few questions of your smith concerning the features of the "match chamber" profile choices.

Last edited by smoothy8500; 01-29-2019 at 9:40 AM..
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Old 02-04-2019, 4:00 AM
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Unless you know the provenance of the brass, match or not really means nothing. This is because there are lot-to-lot variations even with match brass. A match case made in 1980 and a match case made in 2018 from the same manufacturer will probably have more variance than two non-match cases from the same lot. The serious accuracy chasers will take a batch of new cases (match or not) full-length resize them all, trim them all, uniform the flash holes, etc, and then weigh them all to group them by weight. What this does is make sure that each group of cases will now have consistent internal capacities. Each bullet is weighed and measured. Ditto powder charge. Primers, too. The case can be swimming in the chamber, but as long as they all swim the same, it's all good. The goal is to have every shot the same with the only variance being the loose nut behind the stock--and with the unlimited benchrest (Rail Gun) category, even that is removed.
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Old 02-04-2019, 4:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zouaveherb View Post
Unless you know the provenance of the brass, match or not really means nothing. This is because there are lot-to-lot variations even with match brass. A match case made in 1980 and a match case made in 2018 from the same manufacturer will probably have more variance than two non-match cases from the same lot. The serious accuracy chasers will take a batch of new cases (match or not) full-length resize them all, trim them all, uniform the flash holes, etc, and then weigh them all to group them by weight. What this does is make sure that each group of cases will now have consistent internal capacities. Each bullet is weighed and measured. Ditto powder charge. Primers, too. The case can be swimming in the chamber, but as long as they all swim the same, it's all good. The goal is to have every shot the same with the only variance being the loose nut behind the stock--and with the unlimited benchrest (Rail Gun) category, even that is removed.
do they dry weigh cases went sorting?
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Old 02-04-2019, 7:34 AM
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do they dry weigh cases went sorting?

Yes. The idea is that if the external dimensions are all the same after the size, trim, etc. uniforming steps, any variation in weight will be due to different case capacities. This assumes the exact same alloy of brass, which is why you want the cases to be from the same production lot. If you then sort them so a group of five are the same weight, they should all have the same capacity and will have the same pressure curve when loaded identically.



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Old 02-04-2019, 8:17 AM
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if your doing all that prep work to get perfect brass would'nt it make more sense to weigh with H2O when checking internal capacities?
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Old 02-04-2019, 9:05 AM
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in theory it seems like that would be a good idea.

In practice, getting a perfect meniscus for each case sounds like a fool's errand when some folks here have scales that can measure down to the individual kernel of powder.

Sounds like a nightmare to me.

----------

A better plan would be to measure dry weight and then velocity for a group of cases, and then look for effects leverage. if you notice that heavier cases (for example) had a tendency to yield higher velocities, roughly speaking, for a solid population of cases (say, 50 of them) then you know you can impact your ES/SD using that method, and it's likely tied directly to internal capacity.

If no effects leverage, you move on.

you need a good way to mark cases (hint )
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Old 02-04-2019, 10:27 AM
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if your doing all that prep work to get perfect brass would'nt it make more sense to weigh with H2O when checking internal capacities?
The cases would need to be fireformed first before wet weighing them would be accurate.
New cases could have different external dimensions that even full length sizing would not standardize as unfired cases are often smaller than some reloading dies.
This is why brass that has been fired in larger chambers will not fit into smaller chambers even after full length sizing.
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Old 02-04-2019, 10:33 AM
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In practice, getting a perfect meniscus for each case sounds
If you are filling cases to the top, there is no meniscus.
When I fill cases, I fill them up into the neck, tap them to get all the tiny bubbles out, then fill up until water is a bulb above the case and then use a tissue to absorb water from the bulb until the water is perfectly flat across the case mouth.
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Old 02-04-2019, 10:35 AM
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How perfectly flat do you need to make it to get accuracy to at worst, nearest 0.1 grains?

If it's bowed up a little, is it too heavy?

Some of the folks who think about this kind of measurement have tools that can measure to the nearest 0.01 grains. Need to account for the spent primer weight? IE is there variability in the spent primers that can influence the result?

My point is it's not so simple. Unless you tell me you can have pretty obvious meniscus (bowing over the case) and not impact the measurement by at least 0.1 grians resolution.

Last edited by Whiterabbit; 02-04-2019 at 10:37 AM..
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Old 02-04-2019, 10:45 AM
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How perfectly flat do you need to make it to get accuracy to at worst, nearest 0.1 grains?

If it's bowed up a little, is it too heavy?
Depends on caliber...
Go put a case on a scale and see how much it takes to change 0.1 grain.
no need to sort to a tighter tolerance than 0.1 grain.
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Old 02-04-2019, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
The cases would need to be fireformed first before wet weighing them would be accurate.
New cases could have different external dimensions that even full length sizing would not standardize as unfired cases are often smaller than some reloading dies.
This is why brass that has been fired in larger chambers will not fit into smaller chambers even after full length sizing.
yep i get it and was slowly going there...i have not weighed a case uniformed a primer pocket or flash hole or turned a neck in years.

i am 948 rounds into a 6BRX with no case prep.this is the most accurate/consistent cartridge ive shot to date...my ESs are 14fps...next barrel im going full retard on brass prep just to see how it affects the ESs..if they do not drop into the singles then thats the last time ill do the case prep.

ive done all this in the past and quit because its a PITA and the work to yield is not really worth it...to me...but this will be a good test.
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  #36  
Old 02-05-2019, 10:28 AM
divingin divingin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kwikvette View Post
Than a brown russet potato to be exact.

I assume longer than what the chambering was from the factory? Firearm in question is a Remington 700 in .308
Rem chambers have really, really long freebores. With brass trimmed to 2.005", I can load a 175 SMK with substantially less than a bullet diameter of bearing surface in the neck, and still be a few tenths of an inch from touching the lands. That's a lot of the reason I have a new (custom) barrel on order.
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  #37  
Old 02-19-2019, 1:32 AM
hambam105 hambam105 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
30 thousandths longer than what?
A potato?
Yep. A Peterson Potato.
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  #38  
Old 02-19-2019, 8:47 AM
fguffey fguffey is offline
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There are not many 308 W cases I do not have. I formed 400 308 W cases from LC match 30/06 with the year stamped on the head of the case. I understand it is almost impossible to keep up with but the LC Match cases were not fired in a 308 W chamber, they were fired in a 30/06 chamber.

A gun owner and a gun builder had words, the builder wanted to know what the owner was complaining about. I asked about the accuracy; the builder said there was nothing that could be done about the accuracy so I decided I could fix the perceived problem by forming 308W cases out of 30/06 cases. I could have fixed the problem with SL, LC, FC, DEN etc. etc. but the match on the head stamp helped when sorting cases after tumbling.

F. Guffey
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