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Concealed Carry Discussion General discussion regarding CCW/LTC in California |
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Liability Insurance for CCW Holders??
Let me clarify: if you shoot somebody, even in self-defense, you may be arrested and have to prove your innocence. Shooting somebody is an "intentional act" and most of the time not covered under your homeowners policy. If there is coverage, it is extremely limited; therefore, some highly recommend that gun owners, especially ccw holders, purchase supplemental coverage to cover any costs of defending yourself, which could be substantial, in the event of a shooting. Such coverage is available though the NRA and other organizations. I was hoping for feedback on some low-cost plans or policies.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Last edited by ib4275; 09-08-2017 at 6:10 AM.. |
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"Kestryll I wanna lick your doughnut." Fighter Pilot |
#8
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I am just starting my research on coverage now so I am not clear what I need and/or want vs price at this time. What I am certain of, if you have any assets of value, coverage is probably worth looking into, which is why I asked my original question.
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#9
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Anyone have experience with the NRA policy?
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WTB: 2.5” Colt Python 2.5" Smith & Wesson Model 19 2.5" Smith & Wesson Model 66 4" Smith & Wesson Model 19 3.5" Smith & Wesson Model 29 Colt Series 70 1911 Sig Sauer West German P228 Glock Gen5 19/17/34 MOS |
#10
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"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain..." Roy Batty |
#11
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Long rant. Read or disregard as you see fit.
Call me crazy here but it seems like yet one more insurance product looking for potential suckers to scam money from. People are generally very bad at assessing risk and figuring out how much to pay for it. D. Kahnemann noted a study where they asked people, before they boarded a flight, how much they would be willing to pay for insurance from death for any reason on their flight vs what they'd pay for insurance if they died from the result of a terrorist attack. Most of the respondents were willing to pay more for insurance from a terrorist attack -- even though the "any reason" insurance also covered terrorist attacks (and should cost more). Better yet, all the respondents actually worked in the insurance industry as actuaries (and should have known better). Similar results were achieved when they asked about how much to pay for flood insurance for any reason vs flood insurance resulting from an earthquake in CA. One seems more likely but is actually a lower probability event. So if you're in a high-risk profession, such as law enforcement, security, money transport, etc., then it can make good sense to buy the insurance. Any profession that attracts regular death threats would be a good rule of thumb, I'd think. But for the average citizen who is not looking for trouble and rarely even at risk of trouble, the odds of needing to use a firearm are already extremely low. The odds of further needing to go through a full criminal and civil trial are lower still. A few high-profile cases get a lot of attention but there's a lot of quiet evidence suggesting that it is overhyped. I was reminded of the Mad Cow disease scare, where hundreds of people died and the media was in an uproar. Yet more people die from food poisoning and auto collisions (hundreds of thousands every year) and nobody bats an eye. Likewise, we all recall the high-profile cases where somebody defended themselves with a gun and went through legal hell afterward. But I hear of WAY more cases where no charges, criminal or civil, are filed after a defensive gun use. Until I see the data, which I think those selling the insurance have the burden of proof to provide, it's not going to earn my dollar. In a self defense class, I recall somebody asking, when working on knife defenses, how to defend against an attacker doing the prison-style rush with a stabbing. The response was priceless: "It's called, BE A NICER PERSON." In other words, attackers don't usually look to kill you. They want something and are using a weapon as leverage to get it. If they're hell bent on your death you probably screwed up somewhere long before it got to that point. My first CCW instructor, who was Mr. Tacti-cool instructor for the local police, also noted that his main carry weapon was a little NAA .22 mag mini revolver. Why? Because he can take it almost everywhere and, being out of law enforcement, he knew that if he could barely conceive of an event that would get so FUBAR that he'd actually start sending bullets downrange at another human. He wanted to have something, just in case. But the likelihood of needing to have it AND use it barely justified anything more than a dinky pocket revolver to him. Granted, he was about 6'3" & fit to fight. I might want a little more than him to compensate for NOT being 6' 3" and more of a desk-sitting physique. Seems to me that among the insurable risks out there, criminal and civil defense from a firearm incident is probably the LAST thing anybody needs to insure. Life, health, home, auto, retirement, business, identity theft (WAY more common)... If all those things are covered pretty well and you still think you need more insurance, I guess you must just like buying insurance (either paranoid or a sucker in my book but do what you want). But if you have enough assets to worry about being cleaned out from a criminal and civil trial, you need to talk with an attorney about asset protection, separation of holding and operating entities, etc. long before even thinking about insuring such an imperceptibly small risk. And if you're just an average joe, which is most of us, who has assets to protect and think that you are likely to need to insure yourself against a defensive firearm use incident, you may need to lose some relationships, move, increase your home security or otherwise work on being a nicer person first. And since over half of all gun-related deaths are from suicides, investing in your mental health will do more for your personal and financial safety than buying insurance for a defensive gun use. Again, it's not completely useless or a total scam. But it's a MUCH lower priority in the scheme of life's risks. |
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Anchors Aweigh |
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I have ccwsafe.
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#14
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I have both USCCA and CCW safe. They are not "Insurance' per-se, but a pre-paid legal defense assistance (the level of assistance depends on what you buy) that can help you if you ever have to use a gun in or out of your home.
As far as actual Insurance goes, you can get an "Umbrella" rider on your homeowners policy that gives you greater coverage in case of a civil suit (regardless of whether that suit is related to a shooting to not), but you will also pay for that. We may be suckers, but if you are gong to carry a gun around for SD you should at least have some sort of plan in place for after you have to use it....
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"The best gun is the one you'll have on you when you need it the most, the one you know how to use, the one that goes BANG every single time you pull the trigger. Whether that gun cost you $349 or $1,100 it's worth every penny if it saves your life, or the life of someone you love.” -Tim Schmit, CCW Magazine July 2015 NRA Lifetime Member : CalGuns Lifetime Member : GOA Lifetime Member |
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NRA Certified Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun and Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor California DOJ Certified Fingerprint Roller Ventura County approved CCW Instructor Utah CCW Instructor Offering low cost multi state CCW, private basic shooting and reloading classes for calgunners. CCW SAFE MEMBERSHIPS HERE KM6WLV |
#16
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I have USCCA and like my auto insurance, I might not use either one in my lifetime.
But, peace of mind is priceless.
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I once was lost but now am found... Amazing Grace “Republicans, you better VOTE on November 6th! Let’s keep winning!” -@RyanAFournier |
#17
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CCW Safe is basically 50 cents a day for a peace of mind. I hope to never use it. For 50 cents/day; it cost less than a can of soda/day. I guess it's cheap enough for the peace of mind.
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#18
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I have both and I am happy I do. I sleep better at night knowing that I am covered should the very small chance that I should ever need it arise.
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"Life Is Hard. It's Harder When You're Stupid"-John Wayne! "Liberalism Is A Mental Disorder"-Michael Savage! "The Object of Life Is Not To Be On The Side Of The Majority, But To Escape Finding Oneself In The Ranks Of The Insane"-Marcus Aurelius! "Dr. Thomas Sowell Is A National Treasure"-Big Jake! |
#19
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CCWSafe for the criminal defense Umbrella for the civil liabilities. There are at least 6 other threads that discussed this in detail
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Only slaves don't need guns We stand for the Anthem, we kneel for the cross We already have the only reasonable Gun Control we need, It's called the Second Amendment and it's the government it controls. What doesn't kill me, better run |
#20
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I have been researching this lately as well. I was down to CCWSafe and USCCA until I read the details of the coverage that USCCA provides (or doesn't). It was a bit hard to find but you can check it out here: https://www.usccacoverageform.com/
I'm not too comfortable with the fact that if you are found guilty or accept a plea bargain, your coverage stops. If you reach the dollar limit of your criminal defense coverage, your coverage also stops. Also, plenty of legalese language with conditions of why they could deny you coverage. Read it for yourself and see if you are still comfortable with it. However, CCWSafe's Terms of Service and FAQ pages are really easy to find and written in very clear language indicating that your expenses are covered even if you are found guilty or accept a plea bargain. Also, there are no dollar limits to specific areas of coverage other than the $25,000 bail bond limit (which is the same as USCCA's Platinum plan). For my wife and I, CCWSafe costs $199/year vs. $293/year for USCCA Platinum. So USCCA provides civil damages coverage where CCWSafe does not. Some people think it's worth the extra cost (some get both), considering USCCA falls short on everything else. I prefer unlimited legal defense coverage that will get me out of trouble rather than limited defense coverage where I'm left hanging if there is a problem. I'll take my chances with a civil suit (CCWSafe covers civil defense costs too). |
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#24
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https://www.nracarryguard.com/member...us-membership/
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NRA Lifetime Member 1A-2A = -1A |
#25
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Lockton Affinity offers liability insurance under the NRA brand, and financially backed by Loyd's of London. My personal legal coverage is from CCW Safe (I am afflicted with them via a purchase link on my store website) and my liability (and other benefits) are through USCCA. You can win the fight on the criminal side, and lose the fight on the civil (liability side) Once there is a judgement against you there are no bankruptcy protections, your screwed until the judgement is paid) The classic example was OJ. Regardless of what your opinion of the case was the takeaway is that he was acquitted and then financially wiped out. A small note, both USCCA, and CCW safe provide another really invaluable component to their offerings (I think NRA does as well) and that is bail bond. If you ever have to post bail, the cost will kill you. Nice to have a big chunk of that taken care of with out the high fee to you. |
#26
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NRA Lifetime Member 1A-2A = -1A |
#27
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Some bad info in this thread, I would recommend speaking with a professional about your options, if you are relying on your homeowners insurance or subsequent personal umbrella to provide liability protection in the event of a self defense situation you might find yourself surprised, both of these policies have an exclusion for intentional acts that give the insurance carriers the ability to deny, or postpone their decision until any criminal or civil liability has been determined, at that point, they may decide to reimburse you for some costs.
USCCA hands down has the most comprehensive coverage on the market, IF you are concerned about the unlimited defense cost, then you may want to look to CCWSAFE as a secondary coverage. The first self defense/Murder 1 case was recently dismissed, after 2 years of legal battle, the defense costs were just north of 300k, CCWSAFE was the provide on that case. You can google it for details, the defendant's name is Stephen Maddox
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20 Year Veteran in the Insurance Industry with a specialized focus on Firearm Liability both personal and commercial. Retail Gun Shops, Ranges, Manufacturing, and Self Defense Insurance. I am here to help! www.CaliforniaFirearmInsurance.com |
#28
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There are two threads on this issue that should be combined.
Please see my post in the other thread. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s....php?t=1403651 |
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