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  #1  
Old 09-07-2017, 10:24 PM
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Default Liability Insurance for CCW Holders??

Any opinions on the need for liability Insurance for ccw holders, and any recommended plans or carriers?


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Old 09-07-2017, 10:27 PM
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No such thing...Good luck finding one...
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Old 09-08-2017, 3:52 AM
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Old 09-08-2017, 5:48 AM
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USCCA is insurance. CCWsafe is prepaid legal fees. Many of us have both.
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Old 09-08-2017, 5:54 AM
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Default Liability Insurance for CCW Holders??

Let me clarify: if you shoot somebody, even in self-defense, you may be arrested and have to prove your innocence. Shooting somebody is an "intentional act" and most of the time not covered under your homeowners policy. If there is coverage, it is extremely limited; therefore, some highly recommend that gun owners, especially ccw holders, purchase supplemental coverage to cover any costs of defending yourself, which could be substantial, in the event of a shooting. Such coverage is available though the NRA and other organizations. I was hoping for feedback on some low-cost plans or policies.


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Old 09-08-2017, 7:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ib4275 View Post
Let me clarify: if you shoot somebody, even in self-defense, you may be arrested and have to prove your innocence. Shooting somebody is an "intentional act" and most of the time not covered under your homeowners policy. If there is coverage, it is extremely limited; therefore, some highly recommend that gun owners, especially ccw holders, purchase supplemental coverage to cover any costs of defending yourself, which could be substantial, in the event of a shooting. Such coverage is available though the NRA and other organizations. I was hoping for feedback on some low-cost plans or policies.


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I think you answered your own question on need. The big three seem to be USCCA, CCWSafe, and NRA Carry guard. You need to look at all three and see what fits your needs. Some people have more than one of the service's. The most important thing is quick legal representation in my opinion.
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Old 09-08-2017, 7:36 AM
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Originally Posted by ib4275 View Post
Let me clarify: if you shoot somebody, even in self-defense, you may be arrested and have to prove your innocence. Shooting somebody is an "intentional act" and most of the time not covered under your homeowners policy. If there is coverage, it is extremely limited; therefore, some highly recommend that gun owners, especially ccw holders, purchase supplemental coverage to cover any costs of defending yourself, which could be substantial, in the event of a shooting. Such coverage is available though the NRA and other organizations. I was hoping for feedback on some low-cost plans or policies.


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Two types of insurance. Insurance to cover your criminal defense and insurance to cover civil defense and damages (if you lose). Which are you after? And I believe USCCA covers both...albeit maybe not in the amounts you might want/need.
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Old 09-08-2017, 7:43 AM
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I am just starting my research on coverage now so I am not clear what I need and/or want vs price at this time. What I am certain of, if you have any assets of value, coverage is probably worth looking into, which is why I asked my original question.


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Old 09-14-2017, 11:07 AM
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Anyone have experience with the NRA policy?
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Old 09-14-2017, 3:51 PM
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Old 09-27-2017, 10:21 AM
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Long rant. Read or disregard as you see fit.

Call me crazy here but it seems like yet one more insurance product looking for potential suckers to scam money from. People are generally very bad at assessing risk and figuring out how much to pay for it. D. Kahnemann noted a study where they asked people, before they boarded a flight, how much they would be willing to pay for insurance from death for any reason on their flight vs what they'd pay for insurance if they died from the result of a terrorist attack. Most of the respondents were willing to pay more for insurance from a terrorist attack -- even though the "any reason" insurance also covered terrorist attacks (and should cost more). Better yet, all the respondents actually worked in the insurance industry as actuaries (and should have known better). Similar results were achieved when they asked about how much to pay for flood insurance for any reason vs flood insurance resulting from an earthquake in CA. One seems more likely but is actually a lower probability event.

So if you're in a high-risk profession, such as law enforcement, security, money transport, etc., then it can make good sense to buy the insurance. Any profession that attracts regular death threats would be a good rule of thumb, I'd think. But for the average citizen who is not looking for trouble and rarely even at risk of trouble, the odds of needing to use a firearm are already extremely low. The odds of further needing to go through a full criminal and civil trial are lower still.

A few high-profile cases get a lot of attention but there's a lot of quiet evidence suggesting that it is overhyped. I was reminded of the Mad Cow disease scare, where hundreds of people died and the media was in an uproar. Yet more people die from food poisoning and auto collisions (hundreds of thousands every year) and nobody bats an eye. Likewise, we all recall the high-profile cases where somebody defended themselves with a gun and went through legal hell afterward. But I hear of WAY more cases where no charges, criminal or civil, are filed after a defensive gun use. Until I see the data, which I think those selling the insurance have the burden of proof to provide, it's not going to earn my dollar.

In a self defense class, I recall somebody asking, when working on knife defenses, how to defend against an attacker doing the prison-style rush with a stabbing. The response was priceless: "It's called, BE A NICER PERSON." In other words, attackers don't usually look to kill you. They want something and are using a weapon as leverage to get it. If they're hell bent on your death you probably screwed up somewhere long before it got to that point. My first CCW instructor, who was Mr. Tacti-cool instructor for the local police, also noted that his main carry weapon was a little NAA .22 mag mini revolver. Why? Because he can take it almost everywhere and, being out of law enforcement, he knew that if he could barely conceive of an event that would get so FUBAR that he'd actually start sending bullets downrange at another human. He wanted to have something, just in case. But the likelihood of needing to have it AND use it barely justified anything more than a dinky pocket revolver to him. Granted, he was about 6'3" & fit to fight. I might want a little more than him to compensate for NOT being 6' 3" and more of a desk-sitting physique.

Seems to me that among the insurable risks out there, criminal and civil defense from a firearm incident is probably the LAST thing anybody needs to insure. Life, health, home, auto, retirement, business, identity theft (WAY more common)... If all those things are covered pretty well and you still think you need more insurance, I guess you must just like buying insurance (either paranoid or a sucker in my book but do what you want). But if you have enough assets to worry about being cleaned out from a criminal and civil trial, you need to talk with an attorney about asset protection, separation of holding and operating entities, etc. long before even thinking about insuring such an imperceptibly small risk. And if you're just an average joe, which is most of us, who has assets to protect and think that you are likely to need to insure yourself against a defensive firearm use incident, you may need to lose some relationships, move, increase your home security or otherwise work on being a nicer person first. And since over half of all gun-related deaths are from suicides, investing in your mental health will do more for your personal and financial safety than buying insurance for a defensive gun use. Again, it's not completely useless or a total scam. But it's a MUCH lower priority in the scheme of life's risks.
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Old 09-27-2017, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CVShooter View Post
Long rant. Read or disregard as you see fit.

Call me crazy here but it seems like yet one more insurance product looking for potential suckers to scam money from. People are generally very bad at assessing risk and figuring out how much to pay for it. D. Kahnemann noted a study where they asked people, before they boarded a flight, how much they would be willing to pay for insurance from death for any reason on their flight vs what they'd pay for insurance if they died from the result of a terrorist attack. Most of the respondents were willing to pay more for insurance from a terrorist attack -- even though the "any reason" insurance also covered terrorist attacks (and should cost more). Better yet, all the respondents actually worked in the insurance industry as actuaries (and should have known better). Similar results were achieved when they asked about how much to pay for flood insurance for any reason vs flood insurance resulting from an earthquake in CA. One seems more likely but is actually a lower probability event.

So if you're in a high-risk profession, such as law enforcement, security, money transport, etc., then it can make good sense to buy the insurance. Any profession that attracts regular death threats would be a good rule of thumb, I'd think. But for the average citizen who is not looking for trouble and rarely even at risk of trouble, the odds of needing to use a firearm are already extremely low. The odds of further needing to go through a full criminal and civil trial are lower still.

A few high-profile cases get a lot of attention but there's a lot of quiet evidence suggesting that it is overhyped. I was reminded of the Mad Cow disease scare, where hundreds of people died and the media was in an uproar. Yet more people die from food poisoning and auto collisions (hundreds of thousands every year) and nobody bats an eye. Likewise, we all recall the high-profile cases where somebody defended themselves with a gun and went through legal hell afterward. But I hear of WAY more cases where no charges, criminal or civil, are filed after a defensive gun use. Until I see the data, which I think those selling the insurance have the burden of proof to provide, it's not going to earn my dollar.

In a self defense class, I recall somebody asking, when working on knife defenses, how to defend against an attacker doing the prison-style rush with a stabbing. The response was priceless: "It's called, BE A NICER PERSON." In other words, attackers don't usually look to kill you. They want something and are using a weapon as leverage to get it. If they're hell bent on your death you probably screwed up somewhere long before it got to that point. My first CCW instructor, who was Mr. Tacti-cool instructor for the local police, also noted that his main carry weapon was a little NAA .22 mag mini revolver. Why? Because he can take it almost everywhere and, being out of law enforcement, he knew that if he could barely conceive of an event that would get so FUBAR that he'd actually start sending bullets downrange at another human. He wanted to have something, just in case. But the likelihood of needing to have it AND use it barely justified anything more than a dinky pocket revolver to him. Granted, he was about 6'3" & fit to fight. I might want a little more than him to compensate for NOT being 6' 3" and more of a desk-sitting physique.

Seems to me that among the insurable risks out there, criminal and civil defense from a firearm incident is probably the LAST thing anybody needs to insure. Life, health, home, auto, retirement, business, identity theft (WAY more common)... If all those things are covered pretty well and you still think you need more insurance, I guess you must just like buying insurance (either paranoid or a sucker in my book but do what you want). But if you have enough assets to worry about being cleaned out from a criminal and civil trial, you need to talk with an attorney about asset protection, separation of holding and operating entities, etc. long before even thinking about insuring such an imperceptibly small risk. And if you're just an average joe, which is most of us, who has assets to protect and think that you are likely to need to insure yourself against a defensive firearm use incident, you may need to lose some relationships, move, increase your home security or otherwise work on being a nicer person first. And since over half of all gun-related deaths are from suicides, investing in your mental health will do more for your personal and financial safety than buying insurance for a defensive gun use. Again, it's not completely useless or a total scam. But it's a MUCH lower priority in the scheme of life's risks.
All valid points.
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Old 09-27-2017, 12:00 PM
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I have ccwsafe.
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Old 09-27-2017, 3:48 PM
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I have both USCCA and CCW safe. They are not "Insurance' per-se, but a pre-paid legal defense assistance (the level of assistance depends on what you buy) that can help you if you ever have to use a gun in or out of your home.

As far as actual Insurance goes, you can get an "Umbrella" rider on your homeowners policy that gives you greater coverage in case of a civil suit (regardless of whether that suit is related to a shooting to not), but you will also pay for that.

We may be suckers, but if you are gong to carry a gun around for SD you should at least have some sort of plan in place for after you have to use it....
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Old 10-03-2017, 6:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CVShooter View Post
Long rant. Read or disregard as you see fit.

Call me crazy here but it seems like yet one more insurance product looking for potential suckers to scam money from. People are generally very bad at assessing risk and figuring out how much to pay for it. D. Kahnemann noted a study where they asked people, before they boarded a flight, how much they would be willing to pay for insurance from death for any reason on their flight vs what they'd pay for insurance if they died from the result of a terrorist attack. Most of the respondents were willing to pay more for insurance from a terrorist attack -- even though the "any reason" insurance also covered terrorist attacks (and should cost more). Better yet, all the respondents actually worked in the insurance industry as actuaries (and should have known better). Similar results were achieved when they asked about how much to pay for flood insurance for any reason vs flood insurance resulting from an earthquake in CA. One seems more likely but is actually a lower probability event.

So if you're in a high-risk profession, such as law enforcement, security, money transport, etc., then it can make good sense to buy the insurance. Any profession that attracts regular death threats would be a good rule of thumb, I'd think. But for the average citizen who is not looking for trouble and rarely even at risk of trouble, the odds of needing to use a firearm are already extremely low. The odds of further needing to go through a full criminal and civil trial are lower still.

A few high-profile cases get a lot of attention but there's a lot of quiet evidence suggesting that it is overhyped. I was reminded of the Mad Cow disease scare, where hundreds of people died and the media was in an uproar. Yet more people die from food poisoning and auto collisions (hundreds of thousands every year) and nobody bats an eye. Likewise, we all recall the high-profile cases where somebody defended themselves with a gun and went through legal hell afterward. But I hear of WAY more cases where no charges, criminal or civil, are filed after a defensive gun use. Until I see the data, which I think those selling the insurance have the burden of proof to provide, it's not going to earn my dollar.

In a self defense class, I recall somebody asking, when working on knife defenses, how to defend against an attacker doing the prison-style rush with a stabbing. The response was priceless: "It's called, BE A NICER PERSON." In other words, attackers don't usually look to kill you. They want something and are using a weapon as leverage to get it. If they're hell bent on your death you probably screwed up somewhere long before it got to that point. My first CCW instructor, who was Mr. Tacti-cool instructor for the local police, also noted that his main carry weapon was a little NAA .22 mag mini revolver. Why? Because he can take it almost everywhere and, being out of law enforcement, he knew that if he could barely conceive of an event that would get so FUBAR that he'd actually start sending bullets downrange at another human. He wanted to have something, just in case. But the likelihood of needing to have it AND use it barely justified anything more than a dinky pocket revolver to him. Granted, he was about 6'3" & fit to fight. I might want a little more than him to compensate for NOT being 6' 3" and more of a desk-sitting physique.

Seems to me that among the insurable risks out there, criminal and civil defense from a firearm incident is probably the LAST thing anybody needs to insure. Life, health, home, auto, retirement, business, identity theft (WAY more common)... If all those things are covered pretty well and you still think you need more insurance, I guess you must just like buying insurance (either paranoid or a sucker in my book but do what you want). But if you have enough assets to worry about being cleaned out from a criminal and civil trial, you need to talk with an attorney about asset protection, separation of holding and operating entities, etc. long before even thinking about insuring such an imperceptibly small risk. And if you're just an average joe, which is most of us, who has assets to protect and think that you are likely to need to insure yourself against a defensive firearm use incident, you may need to lose some relationships, move, increase your home security or otherwise work on being a nicer person first. And since over half of all gun-related deaths are from suicides, investing in your mental health will do more for your personal and financial safety than buying insurance for a defensive gun use. Again, it's not completely useless or a total scam. But it's a MUCH lower priority in the scheme of life's risks.
While I do agree with this, I joined CCW safe for a little peace of mind which, for me, had to do primarily with their $1,000,000 bail coverage and the fact that, in the extremely improbably event I ever needed to use lethal force to defend myself and get arrested, I should be able to post bail without having to go broke doing it.
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Old 10-03-2017, 9:15 PM
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I have USCCA and like my auto insurance, I might not use either one in my lifetime.
But, peace of mind is priceless.
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Old 10-17-2017, 10:04 PM
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CCW Safe is basically 50 cents a day for a peace of mind. I hope to never use it. For 50 cents/day; it cost less than a can of soda/day. I guess it's cheap enough for the peace of mind.
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Old 10-18-2017, 4:30 PM
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Originally Posted by ron91710 View Post
USCCA is insurance. CCWsafe is prepaid legal fees. Many of us have both.
I have both and I am happy I do. I sleep better at night knowing that I am covered should the very small chance that I should ever need it arise.
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Old 10-18-2017, 4:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ib4275 View Post
Let me clarify: if you shoot somebody, even in self-defense, you may be arrested and have to prove your innocence. Shooting somebody is an "intentional act" and most of the time not covered under your homeowners policy. If there is coverage, it is extremely limited; therefore, some highly recommend that gun owners, especially ccw holders, purchase supplemental coverage to cover any costs of defending yourself, which could be substantial, in the event of a shooting. Such coverage is available though the NRA and other organizations. I was hoping for feedback on some low-cost plans or policies.


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Not completely true. Many homeowners insurance policies will cover civil liability once you have successfully defended the criminal aspects. So many of us have a Prepaid Legal like CCWSAFE to cover the criminal defense. On top of that my Homeowners policy will cover 1 million in civil liability resulting from a proven self defense action and I have a 1 million Umbrella on top of that with a similar clause.

CCWSafe for the criminal defense
Umbrella for the civil liabilities.

There are at least 6 other threads that discussed this in detail
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Old 11-03-2017, 4:40 PM
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I have been researching this lately as well. I was down to CCWSafe and USCCA until I read the details of the coverage that USCCA provides (or doesn't). It was a bit hard to find but you can check it out here: https://www.usccacoverageform.com/

I'm not too comfortable with the fact that if you are found guilty or accept a plea bargain, your coverage stops. If you reach the dollar limit of your criminal defense coverage, your coverage also stops. Also, plenty of legalese language with conditions of why they could deny you coverage. Read it for yourself and see if you are still comfortable with it.

However, CCWSafe's Terms of Service and FAQ pages are really easy to find and written in very clear language indicating that your expenses are covered even if you are found guilty or accept a plea bargain. Also, there are no dollar limits to specific areas of coverage other than the $25,000 bail bond limit (which is the same as USCCA's Platinum plan). For my wife and I, CCWSafe costs $199/year vs. $293/year for USCCA Platinum. So USCCA provides civil damages coverage where CCWSafe does not. Some people think it's worth the extra cost (some get both), considering USCCA falls short on everything else. I prefer unlimited legal defense coverage that will get me out of trouble rather than limited defense coverage where I'm left hanging if there is a problem. I'll take my chances with a civil suit (CCWSafe covers civil defense costs too).
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Old 11-03-2017, 6:06 PM
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Old 11-12-2017, 6:00 AM
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Old 11-12-2017, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by 71MUSTY View Post
Not completely true. Many homeowners insurance policies will cover civil liability once you have successfully defended the criminal aspects. So many of us have a Prepaid Legal like CCWSAFE to cover the criminal defense. On top of that my Homeowners policy will cover 1 million in civil liability resulting from a proven self defense action and I have a 1 million Umbrella on top of that with a similar clause.

CCWSafe for the criminal defense
Umbrella for the civil liabilities.

There are at least 6 other threads that discussed this in detail
An insurer that fails to defend you in the civil case until the criminal case has been defended is looking at being sued for bad faith, unless insurance law has greatly changed. Yes, the agent and claims people are carefully trained to disuade an insured from making a claim for a defense They will read parts of the policy tending to indicate there is no coverage, but if you make the claim and they don't defend, they are in for expensive problems. They almost have to provide the defense and do so without prejudicing your defense in the criminal matter. Then, while defending the civil case, the insurer should bring a separate suit to determine if they have a duty to defend. As long as there is a potential that the civil suit could be amended to state a cause of action that would be covered, they had best defend under a reservation of rights. (Say they sue alleging that you intentionally shot, but they could amend down the road to seek damages for a negligent shooting.)
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Old 11-26-2017, 8:29 PM
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Originally Posted by gargodude View Post
I have been researching this lately as well. I was down to CCWSafe and USCCA until I read the details of the coverage that USCCA provides (or doesn't). It was a bit hard to find but you can check it out here: https://www.usccacoverageform.com/

I'm not too comfortable with the fact that if you are found guilty or accept a plea bargain, your coverage stops. If you reach the dollar limit of your criminal defense coverage, your coverage also stops. Also, plenty of legalese language with conditions of why they could deny you coverage. Read it for yourself and see if you are still comfortable with it.

However, CCWSafe's Terms of Service and FAQ pages are really easy to find and written in very clear language indicating that your expenses are covered even if you are found guilty or accept a plea bargain. Also, there are no dollar limits to specific areas of coverage other than the $25,000 bail bond limit (which is the same as USCCA's Platinum plan). For my wife and I, CCWSafe costs $199/year vs. $293/year for USCCA Platinum. So USCCA provides civil damages coverage where CCWSafe does not. Some people think it's worth the extra cost (some get both), considering USCCA falls short on everything else. I prefer unlimited legal defense coverage that will get me out of trouble rather than limited defense coverage where I'm left hanging if there is a problem. I'll take my chances with a civil suit (CCWSafe covers civil defense costs too).
In my opinion NRA Carry is better than either (ccwsafe is prepaid legal, USCCA is a membership that includes a group insurance plan (not an individual policy with your name on it). NRA carry gold provides 150k for legal (up to 30k upfront) and 1 mil civil. Now a higher level NRA Carry (gold plus) is up to 250k legal and 1.5 mil civil. You have a individual policy not a membership with some random organization which may or may not cover you when you need it most... sorry I'm not into sharing a group policy and hoping it all works out. To me it's the best (and I also think the two other options heavily mentioned on this thread are suspect given lack of individual spelled out policies.. I don't share my car insurance with Joe Dumb... so why would I share this?). NRA carry also automatically covers a spouse (inside or outside your home) and any family residing in your house (while they are physically in your house)
https://www.nracarryguard.com/member...us-membership/
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Old 11-26-2017, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by ib4275 View Post
Let me clarify: if you shoot somebody, even in self-defense, you may be arrested and have to prove your innocence. Shooting somebody is an "intentional act" and most of the time not covered under your homeowners policy. If there is coverage, it is extremely limited; therefore, some highly recommend that gun owners, especially ccw holders, purchase supplemental coverage to cover any costs of defending yourself, which could be substantial, in the event of a shooting. Such coverage is available though the NRA and other organizations. I was hoping for feedback on some low-cost plans or policies.


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The two companies you want to consider for liability insurance are USCCA, which also has the benefit of some legal defense cost coverage, but as was mentioned many of us also carry CCW Safe for the legal coverage.

Lockton Affinity offers liability insurance under the NRA brand, and financially backed by Loyd's of London.

My personal legal coverage is from CCW Safe (I am afflicted with them via a purchase link on my store website) and my liability (and other benefits) are through USCCA.

You can win the fight on the criminal side, and lose the fight on the civil (liability side) Once there is a judgement against you there are no bankruptcy protections, your screwed until the judgement is paid) The classic example was OJ. Regardless of what your opinion of the case was the takeaway is that he was acquitted and then financially wiped out.

A small note, both USCCA, and CCW safe provide another really invaluable component to their offerings (I think NRA does as well) and that is bail bond. If you ever have to post bail, the cost will kill you. Nice to have a big chunk of that taken care of with out the high fee to you.
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Old 11-27-2017, 1:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grantar2 View Post
The two companies you want to consider for liability insurance are USCCA, which also has the benefit of some legal defense cost coverage, but as was mentioned many of us also carry CCW Safe for the legal coverage.

Lockton Affinity offers liability insurance under the NRA brand, and financially backed by Loyd's of London.

My personal legal coverage is from CCW Safe (I am afflicted with them via a purchase link on my store website) and my liability (and other benefits) are through USCCA.

You can win the fight on the criminal side, and lose the fight on the civil (liability side) Once there is a judgement against you there are no bankruptcy protections, your screwed until the judgement is paid) The classic example was OJ. Regardless of what your opinion of the case was the takeaway is that he was acquitted and then financially wiped out.

A small note, both USCCA, and CCW safe provide another really invaluable component to their offerings (I think NRA does as well) and that is bail bond. If you ever have to post bail, the cost will kill you. Nice to have a big chunk of that taken care of with out the high fee to you.
Well in the post above yours I outlined why I disagree that either of those are good but to each his own.
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Old 12-05-2017, 11:36 AM
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Some bad info in this thread, I would recommend speaking with a professional about your options, if you are relying on your homeowners insurance or subsequent personal umbrella to provide liability protection in the event of a self defense situation you might find yourself surprised, both of these policies have an exclusion for intentional acts that give the insurance carriers the ability to deny, or postpone their decision until any criminal or civil liability has been determined, at that point, they may decide to reimburse you for some costs.

USCCA hands down has the most comprehensive coverage on the market, IF you are concerned about the unlimited defense cost, then you may want to look to CCWSAFE as a secondary coverage. The first self defense/Murder 1 case was recently dismissed, after 2 years of legal battle, the defense costs were just north of 300k, CCWSAFE was the provide on that case. You can google it for details, the defendant's name is Stephen Maddox
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Old 12-05-2017, 5:18 PM
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There are two threads on this issue that should be combined.

Please see my post in the other thread.
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s....php?t=1403651
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