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#1
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The science of controlling chamber pressure in semi auto actions?
Anyone else thought about this? There are over a dozen methods of semi-auto actions, strait blow-back, browning tilting barrel, roller delayed, flapper lock, gas piston, gas direct impingement etc etc etc.
Now what really cooks my brain is you have the HK mp5, with its really elaborate roller locking action then... some new companies make copies or "clones" of mp5 type carbines/rifles and they don't even bother with roller locking actions, just a spring and bolt/bolt carrier strait blowback. huh? It almost proves that the rollers were never required for that cartridge to function at all in that type of firearm. Once more there are even modern manufactured 5.7x28 strait blowback actions the 5.7 runs at 50,000psi WAY hotter than half the combat pistol rounds . This really seems half science and half marketing. Is there a scientific formula for PSI/time/resistance, modern firearms are built around?
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#2
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The Hk series of fire arms were designed to run full auto. The different locking pieces controlled the different pressures from different types of ammo. I can almost guarantee that straight blowback in full auto isn't as controllable and reliable.
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#3
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So you are saying a roller lock would reliably run far more different loads or it was "adjustable" to fit a ideal load that would be repeatedly used?
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Sapper Morton: How does it feel? Killing your own kind? K: I don't "retire" my own kind, because we don't run... |
#4
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Ehhh...roller lock is really only needed for rifle pressure cartridges.
There are plenty of semi and full auto 9mm subguns that run reliably using the simple blowback action. Now a blowback does require ammo that will generate the proper pressures to operate it. However, almost all 9mm ammo is suitable as that is what the guns were designed to run.
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#5
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A properly operating straight blowback design uses the reciprocating mass and spring to hold the action closed (enough) to operate correctly. One advantage of a locking system is that it can be engineered lighter and still operate properly.
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#6
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One of the oft discussed advantages of the MP5 was the closed bolt operation, which meant that the trigger released a hammer vs the typical open bolt SMG which had this huge chunk of metal - the bolt - that slammed forward after the trigger was pressed.
Were there any closed bolt, striker fired, blowback SMGs that saw military issue? -- Michael |
#7
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Roller locker in the rifle has some weird characteristics.
The lines on the brass as the gas shot past the brass due to flutes in the barrel The roller locker worked well in the CZ52 and the MP5 Firing a machine gun, the chamber got hot and would cook off a live round... So machine guns fired from open bolt position This allowed the ammo to stay in the feeding device- mag or belt and the action to stay open... air could faster cool the barrel / chamber and the round would not be cooked by being in contact with the chamber. But open bolt is not as accurate as closed bolt Closed bolt then had fluted chambers to reduce the surface area of the hot chamber with the loaded round.... So what are you trying to accomplish??? Each action type has advantages and drawbacks....
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#8
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It was easier for Hk to scale down for the 9mm then make a whole new animal... Keep in mind the mp5 was designed in the 60s. |
#9
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Interesting stuff, I've been contemplating building a California compliant MP5 type pistol or carbine for a while now. Will an HK style roller locked 9mm damage brass beyond reloading?
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Sapper Morton: How does it feel? Killing your own kind? K: I don't "retire" my own kind, because we don't run... |
#10
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I never looked closely at the brass, but I have fired several MP5's on full-auto, and the ejection of the brass didn't seem unusual compared to a handgun. I know that doesn't answer anything about chamber behavior, but that there doesn't seem to be extra force/velocity given to the bolt/ejector that passes on to the brass. The G36 on the other hand, sends brass flying really far, and lots of those casings (5.56) had dented sidewalls from hitting the deflector.
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#11
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But, the best place to start is with Chinn's Machine Gun series. Go to Vol IV and read the section on blowback. All the books are downloadable but Vol IV is the principles of the things and therefore, the most value added: http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ref/MG/ http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ref/MG/IV/MG-V4.pdf Once you read the blowback section you will have a very good idea of pressure and dwell which are foundational for understanding semi automatic mechanisms. I don't know why Chinn does not have the fluted chamber in his series, the books were written in the early 50's and the diffusion of knowledge of the roller action and fluted chamber must not been reached these shores yet. Prior to the fluted chamber all high power blowbacks or delayed blowbacks lubricated the cases with variations of oil, grease, or waxes. The Schwarzlose machine gun has an oil tank on top: So does this Breda M30 Italian machine gun As well as this Japanese Nambu Pedersen used a wax coating for his delayed blowback All of these systems of cartridge lubrication basically went on the ash heap of history after the fluted chamber. From what I have read, the Germans captured a Russian machine gun, which had a fluted chamber, and the rest is history. Flutes eliminated the oiler mechanism and the oil can that the trooper had to carry. Chamber flutes break the friction between the upper 2/3's of the case and chamber. All of this history confounds Hatcherism, but nothing confounds Hatcherites. The knowledge of oiled cartridges, greased cartridges has been mostly forgotten by the American shooting community, instead Hatcherites believe that oiled, greased, lubricated cartridges are dangerous, they "dangerously" raise pressures, over load the bolt mechanism, etc, etc, etc. Of course this is non sense, Hatcherism derives from a century old Army coverup of their defectively built single heat treat 03's and overpressure ammunition the Army issued in 1921. Fluted chambers have been so successful that the memory of oilers and greased cartridges have been quite forgotten in the American shooting community. Breaking the friction between the case and chamber is in fact, desirable for a number of reasons. This first is that function reliability is improved for all semi automatic mechanisms as the case is easily extracted. Fluted chambers are even making their appearance for non roller bolt actions, such as XTRAXN rifles, which are based on the AR15. XTRAXN fluted their chambers and I think this is a great idea. Other than cost, I think all semi auto or full auto chamber should be fluted as breaking the friction between case and chamber will always improve extraction reliability. |
#12
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There have been anti-aircraft guns that were straight blowback actions. Another blowback you might've heard of is the Mk 19 grenade launcher.
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I meant, it is my opinion that... I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and violence I would advise violence. - M. Gandhi You're my kind of stupid. - M. Reynolds |
#13
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The US Army adopted the Oerlikon 20 mm machine cannon prior to WW2. This 20 mm machine cannon was used on basically, everything. It was the 20mm cannon used on bombers and fighter aircraft, used on ground emplacements, used on capital ships, and also used on PT boats. The Germans, and I believe the Japanese used versions of the Oerlikon. Col Chinn has chapters on the various versions of the Oerlikon, the US Army Ordnance Department made about 150,000 of the things, and according to Chinn, the Oerlikon and its Navy versions were produced in more quantity than any other machine cannon. The Oerlikon was used up to Vietnam. It was an advanced primer ignition blowback. This is from Chinn's series: This mechanism could not function unless the cartridges were heavily greased. I found Navy documents, such as NRL Memorandum Report 562 A LABORATORY INVESTIGATION OF CARTRIDGE LUBRICANTS FOR 20MM F.A.T.-16 STEEL CARTRIDGES where after WW2 investigations into oilers, greased cartridges, waxed cartridges, and Teflon coated cartridges in an attempt to make the Oerlikon function with steel cases. What I find amazing is that Major General Hatcher, who was the Head of Army Ordnance during WW2, after making 150,000 Oerlikon's, and he was given a copy of Chinn's Machine Gun series to review before printing, and yet MG Hatcher writes a long and detailed section in his book "Hatcher's Notebook" claiming that greased and oiled cartridges dangerously raise combustion pressures and bolt thrust! I don't know if any civilians ever owned an Oerlikon 20mm machine cannon, the things fired rounds around 700 to 800 rpm, and considering the cost of 20mm shells, the cost of firing one must be on the order of $1,000 to $2,000 a minute. Plus, while the cannon was around 100 lbs, the pedestal and deck mounts are much heavier, so this is not something you can carry in your backpack. For these reasons, and probably many others, the civilian shooting community has basically forgotten these mechanisms and how they operated. As for the MP-5, I don't have one and I don't know whether the thing is a direct blowback or a retarded blowback or not. Whether the roller lugs actually provide any resistance would be a matter of inertia. If the bolt is heavy enough, than inertia alone would suffice in delaying bolt opening to allow breech pressure to decrease enough that the cartridge sidewalls don't rupture. If however, the MP-5 has a lighter bolt, than it is very possible that HK engineered the thing so the roller lugs actually perform the function of a semi rigid locking mechanism. A lighter bolt is an advantage. I had the good luck to fire a Swedish 9mm blowback machine gun, and it rocked and rolled due to the heavy bolt. A lighter bolt would allow better shot placement on full automatic. I do know the MP-5 has a fluted chamber, and regardless of whether the roller lugs provide any resistance to opening, I think chamber flutes are a great idea and improves extraction. Quote:
It is just as Chinn said, high power blowbacks ought to be called "oil-o matics." Last edited by slamfire1; 12-04-2016 at 1:44 PM.. |
#14
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The roller lock adds enough delay and reduction in force to allow a weaker recoil spring or less bolt mass.
Try cocking the bolt on a semi Sten or Thompson- you almost need two hands or to weigh over 200lbs The other option is to add weight to the bolt group. That's why blowback Hi-points have such heavy slides. -Dave PS- the 5.7 has a coating to allow it to work in the P90. The coating lubes the weird 90 degree turn in the mag. If you tumble it off, it'll still work in the 5.7 pistol, but not reliably in the carbine. |
#15
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Keep us posted on what you end up with! I've been hunting around for something MP5-like in 9mm for a fun range toy. Debated on the 9mm AR but kinda want something different.
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Your views on any given subject are the sum of the media that you take in, scaled to the weight of the credibility of the source that provides it, seen through a lens of your own values, goals, and achievements. You Are All Ambassadors, Whether You Like It Or Not Pain is the hardest lesson to forget; Ego is the anesthesia that deadens the pain of stupidity. Bureaucracy is the epoxy that lubricates the gears of progress. |
#16
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Chamber flutes seem like a good idea in general. Most gun folk know that a main weakness of the AR design is weak extraction, and to help out P.O.F. incorporates flutes in the neck area of their "E2" chambers. Might've helped in this example, as it looks like the BCM extractor spring upgrade did all it could and came up short: This happened to me on the first round of a new build; don't know what caused the FTE but every round after that was gravy.
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I meant, it is my opinion that... I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and violence I would advise violence. - M. Gandhi You're my kind of stupid. - M. Reynolds |
#17
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Breda, Schwarzlose, Nambu and many other early MGs all fought the problem of too-early breech opening.
Too-early opening resulted in the bolt trying to pull the case out of the chamber while the case was still expanded and stuck to the cylinder walls. Same as an over-gassed AR. This caused failure to extract, broken extractors or case heads / rims being ripped off. Lubricated cartridge cases helped with the extraction problem, but lead to a new problem with the sticky lubed cases attracting dirt and mud that fouled or jammed actions. This is a reason why lubed cases went away, and are so disliked. Fluted chambers were used to reduce the case-to-chamber-wall contact area so the fired cases were easier to extract. Long or short recoil designs kept the breech closed longer so the extraction problem wasn't an issue. (JMB designs).
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#18
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I originally thought the Oerlikon was a retarded blowback. It took a re reading to understand that it was an advanced primer ignition. Considering all the recoil a 20mm round puts out, the breech block for a simple blowback 20mm cannon would be huge and so would be the recoil! I understand the advanced primer ignition mechanism had its own issues. One can imagine what would happen with a hangfire. The advanced primer ignition feature relies on the forward moving inertia of the breechblock for its timing. If the block is not moving forward, but instead at rest, when the round goes off, the case would be extracted under high pressure and the case walls would rupture once the case head clears the chamber. Kaboom! This is a fun video, you can see at exactly 2:14 on this WW2 video a Sailor’s hand painting grease on the 20 mm ammunition loading machine for the Oerlikon anti aircraft machine guns. http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=9dR3h2HdnBQ There is a very interesting WW2 document, Ordnance Pamphlet 911, at this web site. http://archive.hnsa.org/doc/gun20mm/index.htm You can see the Navy version and its pedestal and deck mount on the second page, and the instructions for lubricating the rounds on this page: http://archive.hnsa.org/doc/gun20mm/part4.htm#pg105 I regularly rail against the phobias and schizophrenic understanding of the laws of physics that the general shooting community has about case lubrication and lubricated cases. At one level, you won't get a reaction about chamber flutes, which provide gas lubrication, but once greases, oils, or waxes are mentioned, you get a hysterical response about the dangers of lubricated cases and lectures about the dangerous of increasing bolt load by lubing cases. Newtonian physics are very consistent (small modifications around massive gravitational bodies) and since we are not shooting black holes in our rifles, load in foot pounds is load in foot pounds. And there are all these examples of mechanisms that used greased and oiled ammunition, and, we have these mechanisms using flutes to break the friction between case and chamber. So it is very frustrating that the general shooting public still adheres to an century old Army coverup that lubed cases are dangerous. I regularly lube my cases on first firing, so I don't get case head separations as the case fills the chamber, and I have been lubing my cases for Garands and M1a's for decades now, because the case basically last forever. |
#19
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Hatcher explained, in Army Ordnance Magazine, March-April 1933, how cases stretch and why lubrication is essential in retarded blow back mechanisms: Automatic Firearms, Mechanical Principles used in the various types, by J. S. Hatcher. Chief Smalls Arms Division Washington DC. Retarded Blow-back Mechanism……………………….. Quote:
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I am certain that an overpressure round, or a mechanical issue, where the timing was off, a delayed blowback would have equal problems, but it does not make the mechanism a failure. In fact, without flutes, the HK91 would rip cases in half, or rip rims off. The fluted chamber allowed that gun to function, and it has been adopted as a service arm and been successfully used world wide. Quote:
1 Oct 1921 Arms and the Man, Editorial by Brig-Gen Fred H. Phillips, Jr, Secretary NRA The National Match Ammunition Quote:
I am very surprised the Townsend Whelen made Col. He had the resources of an Arsenal, and yet his management style prevented his team from surfacing the problems of tin coated bullets. He knew of the problem and so must his minions, but, even so, they produced millions of dollars of expensive ammunition that was so dangerous, whatever remainder existed after the National Matches had to be scrapped. Sort of reminds me of Hillary Clinton. Even though she was in charge of the State Department, her "team" failed to keep her from sending tens of thousands of classified emails over an insecure system. That showed the lady was not fit for command, and thankfully, she did not get promoted. Last edited by slamfire1; 12-05-2016 at 11:04 AM.. |
#20
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Actually I have not read either Hatcher or Whelen on these topics.
Interesting info for sure. During WW1, many lubed case designs were relegated to stationary / fortress use where the environment was much cleaner than in the muddy trenches. The Japanese in WW2 had plenty of trouble with lubed cases and sandy pacific island environments. I find the different early auto loading breech designs to be a fascinating study. So much experimentation, and the ingenuity of the various solutions as problems appeared.
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#21
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Mauser came up with the first issue semi auto matic rifle: the Selbstlader-Karabiner Mauser M 1916 http://www.forgottenweapons.com/earl...r-selbstlader/ and it used greased 8 X 57 mm cartridges! And, it was so dirt sensitive it was issued to the Zeppelin service. Quote:
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#22
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Why would one need greased ammo in a bolt gun ? Maybe because greased ammo was used for awhile that gun makers at the time figured we should just grease them all . Can't hurt right ? Well maybe it can hurt because the bolt/action is not designed to open relieving that pressure resulting in the cartridge sliding back in that closed system creating more pressure on the bolt then should be there ???? Well that's my thinking on that .
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#23
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A G3 could be run as straight blow back too, although you'd need to increase the bolt + carrier weight from 710g (vs 618g for a LR308) to 14kg. Delayed blow back improves accuracy, both in full auto where you have less moving mass shaking things and semi auto with less bolt movement before the bullet leaves the barrel for better accuracy. I need to install a 9mm magazine block and upper on an AR and compare the too after recovering from Gunmageddon. Quote:
Last edited by Drew Eckhardt; 12-05-2016 at 4:49 PM.. |
#24
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This sort of makes sense if you remember that the US Army built over 1,000,000 defective M1903 rifles. Their own tests showed that about 33% of them would fail in an overpressure situation, Hatcher never quantified just how many would shatter and fail with normal loads. We know of low number receivers that were so brittle that they were broken from a blow with a plastic hammer. We know this now, but at the time, that is 1906 through 1917, the Army did not “know” it was making defective rifles. The US Army has always had an unjust culture, they shoot the messenger and they cannot admit when they are wrong. Like all large organizations, when it comes to failures, they are excuse seeking not truth seeking. You cannot trust any self investigation from any large organization, the findings will always be self serving. So while their rifles were blowing up, the Army was deigning they had a problem. Google books has allowed examination of documents that have been lost and buried for decades. We can see the Army denial in this Arms and the Man article, written by Brig Gen Fred H. Phillips Jr Blown Blots and Split Barrels 25 August 1917 Quote:
This is the first reference I have found about the bug a boo of “greased chambers”. It is evident to me that the Army created a reason why their rifles were breaking, and it follows this path. Army made rifles were blowing up with Army made ammunition and since both the rifles and ammunition were perfect, being Army made, what broke them had to be a user practice. The user practice at the time was greasing bullets to prevent bullet fouling, ergo, it has to be the grease. That was the official line the Army put out in public. Now if you do grease bullets, that grease not only goes up the barrel, but it squeezes out the back of the action, greasing the totality of the chamber walls. Such as what I did. This was “big grease” More examples of grease flowing all the way back to the extractor groove. Grease is squeezed into the action areas making for a very messy rifle. But if the rifle is properly designed and manufactured, this is not unsafe, and if ammunition pressures do not exceed the structural design limits of the action. This is why, if you ever noticed, there are pressure limits to cartridges. Exceed the pressure limits and you are stressing the action, barrel, beyond its design limits and you are risking catastrophic metal failure, sooner than later, dry or lubricated cartridges. But, lets say you are the US Army, you know you have built 1,000,000 rifles which at least 33% are defective, and you are issuing them to unsuspecting troopers who cannot refuse their use. I consider this a morality tale. Troopers were injured with these things and the leadership decided that a trooper’s life and health was worth less than the cost of a rifle. That is exactly what it came down to. I did finally found a reference of a fatality, be it though a civilian who bought a M1903 through the DCM. The Army was issuing defective equipment, but they were not telling anyone about just how dangerous these things are. And when people are hurt, the Army is blaming everyone, everything, but themselves. And yet, we know that Hatcher knew of the production problems with these rifles from the very day it was discovered. He also knew of the corrective measures that were taken, but in Official documentation, the whole problem and corrective measures were glossed over in Springfield Armory Annual reports. So, based on what we know now, the leadership of the Army Ordnance Department had to know they had a lot of rifles that were structurally substandard, had to know their defective rifles were blowing up, but never admitted it to Congress, the public, or even, the average trooper. This is a very wicked leadership, knowingly issuing dangerous and defective equipment to its men. No one outside the Ordnance Department really knows just how bad the situation was till Hatcher spills the beans in 1948, well after these rifles are taken out of service. Even then, Hatcher continues the party line of blaming greased and oiled cartridges. Reminds me of the Tobacco Executives who in testimony in Congress, all of them stated that they did not believe nicotine was addictive. We don’t know just how much these Tobacco Executives really believed this or not, but it is an example of how intelligent people make themselves believe lies, so as to not be rejected by the organization that benefits from the lie. As for lubricating cases for bolt rifles, well it is not really necessary once the case is fire formed. There are certain cases, that is rimmed cases, and belted cases, where the shoulder to base distance is not regulated. These cases can and will stretch the sidewalls something terribly. I regularly fireform these cases with a lubricant on the outside. It works great on my 30-30, 303 Brit, 300 H&H and my 375 H&H Magnum. Cases are not cheap, the 300 H&H cases were about $1.75 each, I don’t see any reason why I should stress the case, limit its lifetime, and wear it out sooner. There are number of Old Economy Steve’s who disagree, but to me, money does not grow on trees. I am getting to the point that I am firing all new cases with a lubricant on the outside, I was able to buy new 257 Roberts brass, the stuff has not been on the market for years, the cost was over $1.50 a case, and on the first firing, I have been lubing the heck out of them. Once the cases were fired formed to the chamber, I bump the shoulder back 0.003”. Some actions, like the Lee Enfield, lubricating the case each firing greatly extends the case because the action is so flexible, that without lube, cases life is very short. Parashooter shows this in this article: Cases and Enfields and lube - Oh my! http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=11182& Even for front locked bolt actions, you can make the case for case lubrication, if the case is steel or aluminum. George Frost, in his book Making Ammunition states that aluminum case ammunition is coated with a wax, just like the Pedersen rounds, to keep the things from sticking to the chamber walls. Steel case ammunition is hard on the chamber and hard on the extractor. What amazes me is as grandiose is and was the US Army Ordnance Department, they did not know that the Germans waxed their steel case ammunition in WW1. Even though this stuff was being shot in GEW98 bolt action rifles, with the strong claw extractor, they waxed their steel case ammunition so it would extract after firing. This account is to be found in Dr Dieter Storz's book Rifle & Carbine 98: M98 Firearms of the German Army from 1898 to 1918 https://www.amazon.com/Rifle-Carbine.../dp/390252605X The Germans fired billions of waxed steel case ammunition because steel case ammunition stuck in the chamber if it was not waxed. Just as in the Pedersen rifle, the wax would turn into a lubricating liquid when the cartridge was fired, and this broke the friction between case and chamber, allowing the steel case to be extracted without having to ram a cleaning rod down the muzzle. So, for some case materials, specially aluminum and steel, I will bet there is a wax lubricant that the user is totally unaware of, and yet the manufacturer put on, so there would not be complaints about malfunctions. |
#25
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I'm clearly over my head ( honestly ) How ever It would seem to me that the case does have strength and even more so when surrounded by the chamber and closed off by the bolt . OK that's not making any sense so lets put it this way . The case "adds strength to the chamber and bolt .
My thinking is if the case expands and sticks solidly to the sides of the chamber . IT must take a certain amount of force/pressure to stretch the case back to the bolt face if there is a gap between the bolt face and case head . For this lets say that pressure is 55k psi . So anything above 55k the case starts to stretch back to the breach . Now lets say in this example the pressure in the case is 62k psi . It seems to me you would only need your bolt lugs to be able to handle 8k psi to stop the case from blowing the bolt open not the full 62k psi . Now if you make the case super slippery and it never sticks to the sides of the chamber . Those bolt lugs would have to handle much more force/pressure . This is an assumption but if the 62k psi filled the entire chamber including the space between the bolt face and head . The head would not stretch back to the bolt face do to the equal pressure being exerted . So my "theory" is there is very little pressure between the head and bolt face when pressures are below the ability to stretch the case back and it is the case it self keeping the pressure from blow the head out . Anyways that's my thinking on that . The case it self helps control how much force is exerted against the bolt . If you slick it up more force will be exerted against the bolt .
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Tolerate allow the existence, occurrence, or practice of (something that one does not necessarily like or agree with) without interference. Anyone else find it sad that those who preach tolerance CAN'T allow the existence, occurrence, or practice of (something that they do not necessarily like or agree with) without interference. I write almost everything in a jovial manner regardless of content . If that's not how you took it please try again Last edited by Metal God; 12-05-2016 at 4:53 PM.. |
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