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Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles. |
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#201
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Sorry but I see you as wrong. The first statement of the law says "assault weapon". If my weapon, no matter how I bought it, if now configured featureless, there is no need to register it, as it does not meet the criteria as an assault weapon. |
#202
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What's relevant for registration purposes is whether YOU ever possessed the weapon with a BB any time 2001-2016. If you did you must register it under the law if you continue to possess it. Current configuration has nothing to do with registration requirements if you had possessed it with a BB. Perhaps the regs may follow your contention but I doubt they will because the statute mandates registration if it was ever possessed by YOU with a BB. You show me where the new laws state that one is excused from the registration requirement if one converts to featureless or 2017 mag compliant. That's fiction. The 'die was cast' for registration purposes when you possessed it with a BB. Last edited by ifilef; 08-28-2016 at 12:03 AM.. |
#203
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Hrm. No clue. Maybe you'll have to rigister it, then make it featureless, and then fill the form out saying it's no longer a RAW. There is going to be a deregistrstion form right? What if you sell your RAW out of state? You can tell CA it's no longer yours and therefore no longer a RAW registered to you?
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#204
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As it presently exists you call DOJ to deregister a RAW. They don't call it deregistration, they call it 'cancelation'. There's an AG AW FAQ #14 that describes it:
http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/regagunfaqs#14 |
#205
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The language means that if YOU possessed a featured SACF rifle with BB at any time within those dates you must register it if it remains in your possession. Current configuration is irrelevant and a 'red herring' that might get you in serious trouble in 2018 if you do not register it as an AW in 2017. Last edited by ifilef; 08-28-2016 at 8:50 AM.. |
#206
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Someone answer this as I have not seen any answer to this scenario:
In 2015 you bought a stripped lower. Later on in 2016 when you decided to finally build it, you knew of the upcoming laws and built it with an AR Maglock, it never had a BB. Does this rifle need to be registered if it NEVER had a BB? I think no. How would anyone prove otherwise? |
#207
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I am postulating that since you can't prove when you actually manufactured that AW...a SACF with maglock...the DoJ is under no authority or Duty to allow your registration. They can tell you to pack sand, Turn it over to Police, or disassemble it, make it featureless (remove all CAT3 features) or get it out of CA. You BOUGHT a stripped lower...you have no evidence you manufactured it prior to 2017... and after 2017 its illegal to manufacture an SACF without a Fixed Magazine (a MagLock doesnt qualify as a Fixed Magazine) |
#208
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So you're saying we should take pictures of our BB rifles right now whilst holding a copy of today's paper, print them out, then mail them to ourselves?
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#209
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www.armaglock.com |
#210
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Nailed it Randall.
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PIMP stands for Positive Intellectual Motivated Person When pimping begins, friendship ends. Don't let your history be a mystery |
#211
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They agree that the firearm can be partly disassembled to remove the Detachable Magazine, but the Detachable Magazine can also be removed WITHOUT that disassembly... they do not think this satisfies the laws intent on what is a Fixed Magazine. Quote:
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#212
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I'm not spending that much just to "comply" with stupid CA gun laws. Going featureless will cost money too, but at least it will allow me to have a push-button. |
#213
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That's one of the benefits of the DFM. It is the cheapest option on the market.
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www.franklinarmory.com info@franklinarmory.com ONLINE STORE: http://franklinarmory.com Franklin Armory - Manufacturer of Quality, California Legal AR's, the F17 Series rimfire rifles in 17 WSM, the Drop-in Fixed Magazine (DFM), and the CA7, CA11, and CA12 Rostered AR Pistols! |
#214
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Care to explain how a magazine can be remove with the AR maglock installed WITHOUT disassembly of the action?
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#215
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So basically there are 2 ways to avoid registration, featureless and "fixed magazine". With some of the arguments I've read above some are making it sound like if you go the fixed mag route you would still to need register because the lower was DROSd as a semi auto. Even if your build never had a BB. If that's the case then where is your opportunity to make your rifle compliant before 1/1/2017?
Some of you make it sound impossible. The way I read the law is that if your rifle has a fixed mag (ARMaglock) before 1/1/2017 then you should be fine not having to register because your rifle IS NOT an AW according to the written law. What am I missing? Honestly, I already sold my 6.8 AR that I hunted with to avoid the complications and I'm seriously considering selling my target AR because of the vagueness of what is/will be considered compliant... |
#216
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A normal scenario in PC MURICA 2019 Registered AW owner: "Hello neighbor! Im going to be moving in soon next door, but as a registered ASSAULT WEAPON owner, Im required by law to notify my neighbors and get signatures before my family and I can move in..." Would be Neighbor: "....." *SLAMS DOOR* |
#217
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#218
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So if I possessed a mini 14 with a bullet button I would have to register it? Last edited by Rifle ronin; 08-30-2016 at 11:08 AM.. |
#219
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In a nutshell: For purposes of registration, if YOU possessed a featured SACF weapon at any time during the time frame with a BB it is a done deed that can not be undone under my interpretation of the applicable statutes. You SHALL REGISTER it by 12/31/2017 if you retain possession of it. I'm interpreting with what we have which are the applicable statutes, e.g., PC 30605, NEW PC 30900(b)(1), NEW PC 30680. I suggest that you strongly pay attention to the postings of a new calgunner here- 'rumrunner102'. He has very low post count, but do not discount what he has to say here in a subtle manner which most, if not all with the contrary view, 'glossed over' as it is somewhat esoteric: post #198 - http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...7#post18738207 Do note the statutes cited by rum. In particular: PC 30605 is the penalty statute and it's been in existence for some years. And, NEW "SEC. 2. Section 30680 is added to the Penal Code, to read: 30680. Section 30605 does not apply to the possession of an assault weapon by a person who has possessed the assault weapon prior to January 1, 2017, if all of the following are applicable: (a) Prior to January 1, 2017, the person would have been eligible to register that assault weapon pursuant to subdivision (b) of Section 30900. (b) The person lawfully possessed that assault weapon prior to January 1, 2017. (c) The person registers the assault weapon by January 1, 2018, in accordance with subdivision (b) of Section 30900." NOTICE HOW VERY SIMILAR IT IS TO PC 30605 recited in post #224, below. Rum stated that by enacting PC 30680 the legislature articulated what is missing in §30900(b) and in a manner which leaves no doubt of the legislature's intention. I came to my views just by reading the language of NEW PC 30900(b)(1) but it is buttressed when read in conjunction with NEW PC 30680. So, the penalty of 30605 DOES APPLY if you fail to register a featured BB weapon that you possessed prior to 1/1/2017. Having a BB made it a lawfully possessed AW for registration purposes and one SHALL REGISTER it or suffer the penalties of PC 30605. Maybe he was just afraid of being 'flamed' as a new calgunner and did not state it more directly. I think he ended up being flamed anyway, but in spite of such flaming, I hope he continues to contribute to the forum, though I would not blame him if he did not. 'CrazedSS' seems to agree also in post #196 based on his reading of the statute NEW PC30900(b)(1). So that's at least three of us who have the cajones to call it as we see it. And it's apparent to me that rumrunner has some kind of background in the law. I hope that you all come around and see the light because without more it is pretty clear what one must do to comply with the law. And converting to featureless or what you believe to be 2017 mag compliant before the end of the year IMO just doesn't relieve one of the mandatory duty to register it as an AW. *Disclaimer: My comments are not to be relied upon as legal advice. They are just my general interpretation of the laws as presently available to us. I do not comment upon whether you will be caught or prosecuted if you fail to register. See an attorney and pay for his/her advice for your specific fact situation. **If your mini-14 was and continues to be featureless with a BB while in your possession at any time during the applicable time frame my view is that you do not have to register it because by definition of PC 30515 it would not be an AW. Last edited by ifilef; 08-30-2016 at 1:57 PM.. |
#220
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A - The legislature banned bullet button rifles and not featureless rifles as of 2017. Clearly, the legislature prefers fewer BB'd rifles in public hands rather than more. Q - Was the intent of registration to get all rifles that have ever been maglocked registered? A - No, the intent of registration is to provide a grandfathering mechanism for all owners of rifles that will become illegal as of next year. This has been done before. The goal of this round of registration is not to expand the registry, otherwise the legislature would not have given a limited time window for the registration of new AWs. Q - What is the penalty for not registering? A - There is no direct penalty. A person who does not register loses the "safe harbor" for an otherwise illegal rifle. Q - What if I have a rifle that was BB'd at one point, but converted to featureless before 2017, and I don't register it? Am I going to jail? A - What crime do you think that you'll be charged with? Keep in mind that there is a specific mechanism for deregistering RAWs once they have been made featureless, so clearly the legislature has no problems with would-be AWs being neutered. -- Michael |
#221
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I still have the same question: what if you didn't "CONVERT" anything before 1/1/2017 but built the rifle from a stripped lower as featureless or with a fixed magazine, meaning it never was an AW according to the law?
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#222
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They "experts" here will have wait with us to see how it's defined.
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#223
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If it is a newly classified AW you will be forced to take some action, as possession of an unregistered AW is a crime. -- Michael |
#224
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DOJ has a problem with AW that are NOT registered first as AW concerning so-called 'de-registration'. In order to de-register one must REGISTER IT AS AW FIRST. See DOJ AW FAQ #14. So they are not sanctioning converting without RAW first. The crime- inter alia, possession of an unregistered AW in 2018. Felony arrest, jail thereafter, bail, likely misdemeanor conviction first time out, relinquishment and destruction of your rifle, and a fine (plus penalty assessment?). How? Assuming one has converted to featureless and shooting with it, comparing DROS databases with AW registration databases. Letters to follow in 2018, demanding surrender of your post 1/1/2014 DROS AW because they know the make model CALIBER etc of that M&P15 Sport/Sport II and that it HAD BB when you PURCHASED/POSSESSED IT, you failed to register it in 2017, and threatening prosecution if you do not surrender the firearm. Or shooting featured with BB in 2018 and you are required for some reason to show proof that it's a RAW. I, for one, will be shooting with BB or better in 2018 and NOT have to be looking over my shoulder. You make your own choices. Current statute PC 30605. (a) Any person who, within this state, possesses any assault weapon, except as provided in this chapter, shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail for a period not exceeding one year, or by imprisonment pursuant to subdivision (h) of Section 1170. (b) Notwithstanding subdivision (a), a first violation of these provisions is punishable by a fine not exceeding five hundred dollars ($500) if the person was found in possession of no more than two firearms in compliance with Section 30945 and the person meets all of the following conditions: (1) The person proves that he or she lawfully possessed the assault weapon prior to the date it was defined as an assault weapon. (2) The person has not previously been convicted of a violation of this article. (3) The person was found to be in possession of the assault weapon within one year following the end of the one-year registration period established pursuant to Section 30900. (4) The person relinquished the firearm pursuant to Section 31100, in which case the assault weapon shall be destroyed pursuant to Sections 18000 and 18005. I am not choosing to address your other comments because I don't have the time, though my take on them may be different. Last edited by ifilef; 08-30-2016 at 2:13 PM.. |
#226
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Court can take judicial notice of it or can make a presumption that it required a BB to be sold here in CA if featured SACF weapon.
And I am now leaving this thread because I don't care to discuss issues related to whether one will be caught. It opens up a can of worms and the predominating issue is what is required UNDER THE LAW and NOT WHETHER YOU WILL BE CAUGHT. Last edited by ifilef; 08-30-2016 at 1:48 PM.. Reason: UNSUBSCRIBED. |
#227
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Nothing on a dros that describes features either.
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#228
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#229
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If a firearm is NOT an AW at the time of registration it can't be registered and wasnt a Legally owned AW prior to 2017 then there is no reason to register it. ifilef says if it ever was an AW then it always is until AFTER its registered then un-registered. I say IT'S possible you will have to prove WHEN you assembled it into an AW if you are going to register it. Doesnt need to for what I am talking about, ifilef on the other hand has that issue with his opine... see above... |
#230
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By breaking it? Talk about a stretch, this guy might be pulling a muscle. There's lots of things that can be "broken" to varying degrees that could create an AW, including breaking the fin off of a finned grip, breaking a magazine where it catches, breaking the mag catch itself, and so on.
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#231
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How does a rifle, initially sold with a BB pre-2017, but converted to featureless also pre-2017, that during and after 2017 is only featureless, satisfy the conditions for a "possession of an unregistered" AW charge? Pre 2017, in both the BB and featureless states, it's a legal rifle. It's not an AW. Post 2016, it has no features, and is no different than any other featureless rifle. It's not an AW. https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...201520160SB880 30515. (a) Notwithstanding Section 30510, “assault weapon” also means any of the following: The definition of AW depends on what the rifle currently is. -- Michael |
#233
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elSquid-
My point is that once YOU possessed it with a BB it becomes a lawfully possessed AW for registration purposes, and mandatory duty to register it. It's a retroactive set stage and you can't change its characterization for registration purposes. I've made this position clear in many posts. Legislature is basically saying, lookit, you can keep your featured BB rifle in the future, but we are going to make them illegal on or after 1/1/2017. All you need to do is register yours in 2017 to keep it in that configuration or to keep it, period, as we will grandfather them as we have in the past. We don't care what you do to make it comply with 2017 requirements. And we can't believe you that it was converted to featureless. Once an AW, always an AW, and effective 1/1/2017, if you had POSSESSED featured with BB any time during the 16 year period we want you to register it as AW and that is why we worded the statute, e.g., New PC 30900(b)(1) the way we did. If we wanted to excuse those from registration who convert by end of 2016 to featureless or 2017 mag complaint (whatever we say that is via regulation) we would have so provided such exemptions or exceptions. And we haven't- and for good reason, because we want you on a list and we know that featureless is arguably just as or more deadly anyway so we want to know more about you. Also, (and more importantly) we want to look good for the populace and get re-elected or rise higher. So, register it, and you have done your duty, and we can't prosecute you for anything. As I've stated before, and based on past history in this state, the ones who are going to either have their weapons confiscated or worse, will be those who do not timely register. Current configuration is irrelevant. Whether it was featured with a BB in your possession is the relevant factor where there is no escape (unless regs or other save us- doubtful, IMO). Last edited by ifilef; 08-30-2016 at 4:46 PM.. |
#234
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The law has a very specific definition of what an AW is.
As of 2017: 30515. (a) Notwithstanding Section 30510, “assault weapon” also means any of the following: So again... How does a rifle, initially sold with a BB pre-2017, but converted to featureless also pre-2017, that during and after 2017 is only featureless, satisfy those conditions for a "possession of an unregistered" AW charge in 2017? -- Michael |
#235
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New PC 30515 makes future sales or transfers of BB firearms illegal AW that can not be registered. It effectively bans the future use of BB on weapons sold or manufactured after its effective date. Please try to understand what is currently defined as an AW is irrelevant. If you currently possess featureless it is NOT an AW. If you currently possess featured with a BB it is not an AW. What the new statute [(30900(b)(1)] says is that effective 1/1/2017 and for registration purposes only, if at any time it had a BB and was featured and was in your possession you must REGISTER IT as a newly defined AW that was legal to possess during the period 2001-2016.. It's very similar to Roberti-Roos, which banned future sales but allowed those who already possessed the listed weapons to keep them IF THEY REGISTERED them as AW. 'We won't prosecute you for possessing the newly defined AW in 2016, but we will for possession of an unregistered AW in 2018 as you failed to register said AW. Last edited by ifilef; 08-31-2016 at 12:36 AM.. |
#236
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The conditions for the charge are applicable in 2017. In terms of an actual arrest, there is a grace period.
The fact is that ...a rifle, initially sold with a BB pre-2017, but converted to featureless also pre-2017, that during and after 2017 is only featureless... ...does not satisfy the legal definition of an AW in 2017. Therefore it is not illegal to possess at that time. There is no crime in "failing to register a rifle that at some point had a bullet button pre 2017, but doesn't as of 2017". 30900 doesn't describe criminal actions and penalties, it lays out the foundation for the DOJ to grant eligible persons exemption from criminal penalites that would otherwise come into force when the definition of the term "assault weapon" changes next year. -- Michael Last edited by elSquid; 08-30-2016 at 4:44 PM.. |
#237
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#238
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I have to agree with elSquid... Its an obvious fact that our BB guns are not Assault weapons right now, in 2016. So converting them to featureless before next year means they are not and were never assault weapons.
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#239
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NEW PC 30900(b)(1): (b) (1) Any person who, from January 1, 2001, to December 31, 2016, inclusive, lawfully possessed an assault weapon that does not have a fixed magazine, as defined in Section 30515, including those weapons with an ammunition feeding device that can be readily removed from the firearm with the use of a tool, shall register the firearm before January 1, 2018, but not before the effective date of the regulations adopted pursuant to paragraph (5), with the department pursuant to those procedures that the department may establish by regulation pursuant to paragraph (5). NEW PC 30680. Section 30605 does not apply to the possession of an assault weapon by a person who has possessed the assault weapon prior to January 1, 2017, if all of the following are applicable: (a) Prior to January 1, 2017, the person was eligible to register that assault weapon pursuant to subdivision (b) of Section 30900. (b) The person lawfully possessed that assault weapon prior to January 1, 2017. (c) The person registers the assault weapon by January 1, 2018, in accordance with subdivision (b) of Section 30900. PC 30605 (a) Any person who, within this state, possesses any assault weapon, except as provided in this chapter, shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail for a period not exceeding one year, or by imprisonment pursuant to subdivision (h) of Section 1170. (b) Notwithstanding subdivision (a), a first violation of these provisions is punishable by a fine not exceeding five hundred dollars ($500) if the person was found in possession of no more than two firearms in compliance with Section 30945 and the person meets all of the following conditions: (1) The person proves that he or she lawfully possessed the assault weapon prior to the date it was defined as an assault weapon. (2) The person has not previously been convicted of a violation of this article. (3) The person was found to be in possession of the assault weapon within one year following the end of the one-year registration period established pursuant to Section 30900. (4) The person relinquished the firearm pursuant to Section 31100, in which case the assault weapon shall be destroyed pursuant to Sections 18000 and 18005. Last edited by ifilef; 08-31-2016 at 12:31 AM.. |
#240
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It is certainly not something we want to hear, that a BB rifle possessed at any time must be registered regardless of current configuration.
I'm just wondering though, what if in the description part of registering the information you enter (if it's even entered that is) doesn't fit the definition of an AW? I guess from what we know now on what information will be required, there is no option to enter things like a muzzle break, fixed magazine, non-collapsible stock, non-pistol grip correct? If this is the case then you'll only 'get away' with being feautureless or 2017 fixed mag compliant in 2018 until the DOJ cross references the records to find out who purchased specific models post-2014 that are assumed to have a BB (which apparently they did with the whole SKS's) Technically people who purchased BB rifles or completed lower receivers with BB's pre-2014 may be able to go in 2016 and remain featureless without a problem? I think not because there's always the 4473. So at least you can register and then cancel that registration. Only time will tell before we know for sure but we should prepare for everything and this seems like something CA would intend to do.
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Believe half of what you see and nothing you hear. |
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