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  #161  
Old 12-28-2017, 8:15 AM
cvigue cvigue is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 264Grendel View Post
For those registering their bullpups, are you successfully registering with Bullet Buttons or with grip wraps?
Why would anyone register with a grip wrap?
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  #162  
Old 12-28-2017, 8:23 AM
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https://oag.ca.gov/firearms/regagunfaqs#34b
Perhaps this may help. Found it on another thread.
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  #163  
Old 12-28-2017, 9:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cvigue View Post
Why would anyone register with a grip wrap?
Because they have an unpinned muzzle device so they are under 30" OAL.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Blade Gunner View Post
https://oag.ca.gov/firearms/regagunfaqs#34b
Perhaps this may help. Found it on another thread.
Yep! Apparently their lawyers agree that once you register as an AW, your new min OAL is 26".
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  #164  
Old 12-28-2017, 9:49 AM
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Originally Posted by tonyxcom View Post
Because they have an unpinned muzzle device so they are under 30" OAL.
Ah. Mine was delivered pinned.
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  #165  
Old 12-28-2017, 3:22 PM
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Originally Posted by tonyxcom View Post
Because they have an unpinned muzzle device so they are under 30" OAL.




Yep! Apparently their lawyers agree that once you register as an AW, your new min OAL is 26".
That's not what I read.. it says you SHOULD NOT shorten.. or remove the bullet button.. or am I reading it wrong:

Quote:
What changes can I make to my assault weapon after I register it?

The AB 1135/SB 880 assault weapons regulations created by DOJ state that the bullet button style release must remain on the firearm. The owner should not shorten a rifle barrel below 16” or the overall length under 26” (Penal Code 33210 and Penal Code 17170). The owner should not shorten a shotgun barrel below 18” or the overall length under 26” (Penal Code § 33210 and Penal Code § 17180). See the “key terms” section of the AB 1135/SB 880 assault weapons regulations.
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  #166  
Old 12-28-2017, 3:24 PM
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Default Bullpups and DOJ overall length definition...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve1968LS2 View Post
That's not what I read.. it says you SHOULD NOT shorten.. or remove the bullet button.. or am I reading it wrong:


Should not shorten a rifle barrel under 16” is what is stated. Overall length of a registered AW rifle can be 26” and up.
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  #167  
Old 12-28-2017, 3:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve1968LS2 View Post
That's not what I read.. it says you SHOULD NOT shorten.. or remove the bullet button.. or am I reading it wrong:
"The owner should not shorten a rifle barrel below 16” or the overall length under 26”

So - should not shorten under 26"

It does not say "Should not shorten the OAL under 30". They specifically cite 26" as the minimum OAL.
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  #168  
Old 12-28-2017, 5:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyxcom View Post
"The owner should not shorten a rifle barrel below 16” or the overall length under 26”

So - should not shorten under 26"

It does not say "Should not shorten the OAL under 30". They specifically cite 26" as the minimum OAL.
Thanks.. I was misreading it..

Trying to decide if I want to register my PS90.. it would be the only thing I would register, so not sure if worth it or not..

I kind of like not having a bullet button.. decisions..
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  #169  
Old 12-28-2017, 7:29 PM
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Is DOJ free to keep changing the regs if they decide they've made a mistake, etc?
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  #170  
Old 12-28-2017, 9:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve1968LS2 View Post
That's not what I read.. it says you SHOULD NOT shorten.. or remove the bullet button.. or am I reading it wrong:
Quote:
The owner should not shorten a rifle barrel below 16” or the overall length under 26”
Both of those would fall under Federal SBR laws and be an NFA violation.

The issue is whether you can remove the fake can to shorten a Bullpup barrel TO 16", making the OAL 26" rather than 30"
2016 California-legal Bullpups were sold with a 4" fake can to bring the OAL to 30", but usually was not pinned, since California AW laws do not require permanence, and the stock configuration was compliant with NFA rules.
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  #171  
Old 12-28-2017, 9:12 PM
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Originally Posted by vandal View Post
Is DOJ free to keep changing the regs if they decide they've made a mistake, etc?
No, but they can send an email to Kevin Leon or Newsom and link to these threads and say "Can we fix this problem next year?"
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Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just government will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just government. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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  #172  
Old 12-29-2017, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
No, but they can send an email to Kevin Leon or Newsom and link to these threads and say "Can we fix this problem next year?"
I don't see how it will be an issue. Everything between 26 and 30 inches should already be registered.

I am sure that during the semi-auto rifle ban, your OAL will be 30 though.
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  #173  
Old 12-29-2017, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by tonyxcom View Post
I don't see how it will be an issue. Everything between 26 and 30 inches should already be registered.
Nope. 11 CCR 5471(x) codified overall length measurement to exclude muzzle appliances which are not permanently attached.

This affects bullet-buttoned collapsing/folding stocked rifles the owners intended to run as unregistered "fixed magazine" guns an many bullpups in any configuration.

Tavors which legally measured 30" including their screwed on 4 5/8" muzzle brakes became 26.1" guns with that pen stroke.

Quote:
(x) “Overall length of less than 30 inches” with respect to a centerfire rifle means the rifle has been measured in the shortest possible configuration that the weapon will function/fire and the measurement is less than 30 inches. Folding and telescoping stocks shall be collapsed prior to measurement. The approved method for measuring the length of the rifle is to measure the firearm from the end of the barrel, or permanently attached muzzle device, if so equipped, to that part of the stock that is furthest from the end of the barrel, or permanently attached muzzle device. (Prior to taking a measurement the owner must also check any muzzle devices for how they are attached to the barrel.)
As a Tavor owner I object to DOJ refusing to register them in pistol gripped, muzzle braked form as required by the letter of our laws and regulations as I stand. If DOJ followed its own rules, I could throw on a grip wrap, take off the bullet button, register, and own the "assault weapon" in any configuration I wanted as permitted by the letter of the law which dissenting CA legislators pointed out before it was signed.

While DOJ will not register "featureless" rifles which calgunners interpret as "lacking the features enumerated in PC 30515(a)(1)", their definition in 11 CCR 5471(o) defines the term to encompass all characteristics defined in PC 30515 including PC 30515(a)(3) "A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has an overall length of less than 30 inches."

Quote:
(o) “Featureless” means a semiautomatic firearm (rifle, pistol, or shotgun) lacking the characteristics associated with that weapon, as listed in Penal Code section 30515.

Last edited by Drew Eckhardt; 12-29-2017 at 12:13 PM..
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  #174  
Old 12-29-2017, 1:20 PM
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Thats not the point we are talking about here.
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  #175  
Old 12-29-2017, 6:26 PM
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I registered my TAVOR SAR (already got the letter from the CA DOJ making it official) - I didn't pin my 4 5/8 inch muzzle brake that came with the weapon when I bought it I just left it as is. But did keep the BB on as the regs state it has to be on to register it as a BBAW.
I just put a comment in the comment section of the AW registration form saying the weapon has a 4 1/2 muzzle brake on the end of the barrel (because I didn't check the flash suppressor box - didn't want to give them another reason to kick it back if someone there thought the muzzle brake was a flash suppressor).
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  #176  
Old 12-29-2017, 6:49 PM
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I was told by the distributor I bought my Steyr AUG CQC, PJA Investments, the most respected seller/distributor of Steyr AUG's, that the total overall length of my rifle was 29.75 inches with a 16" barrel. So I stored away the 16" barrel the rifle came with, and bought a 20" barrel. This gave my AUG an overall length of 33.75 inches without having to weld my flash hider.
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  #177  
Old 01-18-2018, 4:17 AM
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Default Bullpups and DOJ overall length definition...

People that registered. What boxes did you check and why? The only one I see is (Pistol Grip that Protrudes Conspicuously Beneath the Action of the Weapon)? Anything else need to be noted? I’m still debating on registering my Tavor or not. Also my KT Sub2k. Thanks.


Barrel Length: 16”
Make: Israel Weapon IND
Caliber: 223 Rem
Color: Tan since mine is FDE
Country of Origin: Isreal?
Firearm Acquired from: this was new but PPT do I choose Private Party or Firearms Dealer???



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Last edited by Zyralius; 01-18-2018 at 4:31 AM..
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  #178  
Old 01-18-2018, 4:50 AM
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1) Barrel length should include the length of the muzzle device used to reach >30" overall-length (the device should be permanently attached, but other people might have more insight/experience with registration and this topic)

So it should be something like 16" + 4" muzzle device = 20" barrel (this is an example, measure it yourself)

2) Go with PPT since you didn't buy it from the dealer.

Country of origin could be USA depending on how DOJ feels about IWI being a U.S. company (Check the markings on the rifle for clues). Any "Made in Israel" markings would be definitive though.
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  #179  
Old 01-20-2018, 12:30 AM
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Mine has an 18” barrel and a flash hider so I put 18” barrel, pistol grip, flash hider .223 caliber manufactured by Isreali Weapons Industry made in United States. It came back for a request of a better picture of the caliber markings. Resubmitted a better picture and it was accepted. If there’s any question of overall length they will ask you for a picture with tape measure, but they did not question mine.
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  #180  
Old 01-20-2018, 7:06 AM
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Originally Posted by bigbully View Post
Mine has an 18” barrel and a flash hider so I put 18” barrel, pistol grip, flash hider .223 caliber manufactured by Isreali Weapons Industry made in United States. It came back for a request of a better picture of the caliber markings. Resubmitted a better picture and it was accepted. If there’s any question of overall length they will ask you for a picture with tape measure, but they did not question mine.
Yea, mine came back last night for the same thing.
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  #181  
Old 01-20-2018, 8:16 AM
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For those registering Tavors - do any of you know how/if registering as a 5.56 cal firearm impacts your ability to use the 9mm conversion kit? I’d argue that like an AR it is multi-cal, but if I remember correctly the 5.56 chambering is clearly written on the receiver/barrel?
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  #182  
Old 01-20-2018, 8:29 AM
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Originally Posted by SailorDan View Post
For those registering Tavors - do any of you know how/if registering as a 5.56 cal firearm impacts your ability to use the 9mm conversion kit? I’d argue that like an AR it is multi-cal, but if I remember correctly the 5.56 chambering is clearly written on the receiver/barrel?


DOJ will not accept interchangeable barrels or 5.56 caliber designation for a Tavor. The markings on the lower receiver/buttstock near the serial number, indicate .223 (so the picture you submit will show this). I tried interchangeable barrels and it got kicked back. However after you register it there are no laws or regulation to prevent you from changing the caliber (just not to 50 BMG, which in a Bullpup platform would be challenging to shoot).
There is pleasant surprise after you register it. You can get rid of the awful muzzle extention ang get OAL to 26”



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  #183  
Old 01-20-2018, 9:17 AM
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Default Bullpups and DOJ overall length definition...

Quote:
Originally Posted by HibikiR View Post
1) Barrel length should include the length of the muzzle device used to reach >30" overall-length (the device should be permanently attached, but other people might have more insight/experience with registration and this topic)



So it should be something like 16" + 4" muzzle device = 20" barrel (this is an example, measure it yourself)



2) Go with PPT since you didn't buy it from the dealer.



Country of origin could be USA depending on how DOJ feels about IWI being a U.S. company (Check the markings on the rifle for clues). Any "Made in Israel" markings would be definitive though.


1. The regs indicate registration for a legal configuration as of 12/31/2016. As of that date a muzzle extension used to reach 30” OAL did not have to be pinned. Also you not only do not have to pin it after registration, you may remove it to 26” OAL. (If you elect not to go featureless and not register, you will have to pin the muzzle extension which may not also be a flash hider)

2. Use 16” as the barrel length. The unpinned muzzle extension is only there to meet OAL. As it is not pinned to the barrel, it is not included in the barrel length.

3. The manufacturer is in Harrisburg PA as stamped on the lower receiver/buttstock. Do not indicate made in Israel. (This will give DOJ brain farts). The only visible “Made in Israel” marking is on the barrel which is also marked 5.56, but use .223 as the caliber per the receiver markings. Do not sent a picture of the barrel markings (more brain farts).


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Last edited by Blade Gunner; 01-20-2018 at 9:22 AM..
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  #184  
Old 01-20-2018, 4:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SailorDan View Post
For those registering Tavors - do any of you know how/if registering as a 5.56 cal firearm impacts your ability to use the 9mm conversion kit? I’d argue that like an AR it is multi-cal, but if I remember correctly the 5.56 chambering is clearly written on the receiver/barrel?
When you register your TAVOR (I have already and gotten the AW letter in the mail) include a picture of the caliber marking on the barrel as an optional image. And put a comment in the comments section saying that you included a picture of the 5.56 caliber marking under optional images.

As far as your other question once you've gotten your rifle registered as an AW when they check to see if its legal you show them the AW letter and they see the serial number matches - they move on. I doubt they're gonna check the caliber on the barrel. But nothing in the law stops you from changing out your barrel/caliber it's still the same weapon.
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  #185  
Old 01-20-2018, 4:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zyralius View Post
People that registered. What boxes did you check and why? The only one I see is (Pistol Grip that Protrudes Conspicuously Beneath the Action of the Weapon)? Anything else need to be noted? I’m still debating on registering my Tavor or not. Also my KT Sub2k. Thanks.


Barrel Length: 16”
Make: Israel Weapon IND
Caliber: 223 Rem
Color: Tan since mine is FDE
Country of Origin: Isreal?
Firearm Acquired from: this was new but PPT do I choose Private Party or Firearms Dealer???



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I'll answer what I can, I registered a TAVOR SAR.

Yes PISTOL GRIP was the only feature I checked.

Barrel length: Mine was 16.5"
Make: ISRAEL WEAPONS IND.
Caliber: 5.56X45mm NATO
^Include as an optional image a photo of the caliber marking on the barrel of the weapon.
Color: TAN seems fine since they don't have a Flat Dark Earth option. They're not very picky on the color you choose.
Country of Origin: Israel
Firearm acquired from: I bought mine new from a Firearms Dealer so that's what I used - not sure about your situation.

Here are the comments I put in the comment section:
It has a 4 1/2 inch muzzle brake on the end of the barrel. The weapon was made in Israel and distributed by IWI US located in Harrisburg, PA

^I said those comments because I didn't mark flash suppressor I didn't want them to kick it back because they thought a muzzle brake was a flash suppressor. And clarified where it was made because on the side of the receiver is stamped IWI US HARRISBURG, PA

If you want to you could take another picture of the MADE IN ISRAEL stamped on the front of the barrel and upload it under hunting license option and tell them you did this in the comments. But that's not really necessary. I put in my comments about it being distributed by IWI US since it's stamped on the side of the receiver to preclude Mr. literal at the CA DOJ from assuming that's where it was made.

I already got my AW Letter for this rifle.

Last edited by bronco75a; 01-20-2018 at 4:44 PM..
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  #186  
Old 01-20-2018, 8:53 PM
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Why was this moved to the CA Laws section and how do they affect me?

It makes zero sense. At least move it to the centerfire rifle section if you're not gonna leave it under the CA 2nd amendment section where all the other registration threads are.

Still shaking my head.

I spent a lot of time answering that one guy and now he'll probably not even see my answer. Brilliant!
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  #187  
Old 01-21-2018, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by bronco75a View Post
Why was this moved to the CA Laws section and how do they affect me?

It makes zero sense. At least move it to the centerfire rifle section if you're not gonna leave it under the CA 2nd amendment section where all the other registration threads are.

Still shaking my head.

I spent a lot of time answering that one guy and now he'll probably not even see my answer. Brilliant!
If he is subscribed to the thread, he will be notified and see it, regardless of where it is.

This is properly placed in "CA laws and how they apply", it is not specifically about registration, it is about what you can do after registration.
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Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
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  #188  
Old 01-22-2018, 11:37 AM
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After reading this thread. It looks like my options are as follows (I purchased my Tavor in 2015, it came with a Raddlock (similar to bullet button) and non-permanently attached muzzle break to meet the 30" OAL.)

1. Register as AW by June 30th 2018 as is. Then I can go to 26" OAL after registration but bullet button must remain.

2. Make the rifle featureless by permanently attaching the muzzle break, add a grip fin and then I can install the standard mag release.

Is my understanding correct?
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  #189  
Old 01-22-2018, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by OcRider View Post
After reading this thread. It looks like my options are as follows (I purchased my Tavor in 2015, it came with a Raddlock (similar to bullet button) and non-permanently attached muzzle break to meet the 30" OAL.)

1. Register as AW by June 30th 2018 as is. Then I can go to 26" OAL after registration but bullet button must remain.

2. Make the rifle featureless by permanently attaching the muzzle break, add a grip fin and then I can install the standard mag release.

Is my understanding correct?
Yes, also sell before June 30th out of state or convert featureless and sell here.

Still a debate as to going back to 26" but no one can find anything that says otherwise. I am planning on waiting for awhile until we can get more clarity on it for my AUG.
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  #190  
Old 01-22-2018, 12:59 PM
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Yes, also sell before June 30th out of state or convert featureless and sell here.

Still a debate as to going back to 26" but no one can find anything that says otherwise. I am planning on waiting for awhile until we can get more clarity on it for my AUG.
Thanks, I think I will wait a little longer and see what happens.
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  #191  
Old 01-22-2018, 1:03 PM
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Originally Posted by OcRider View Post
Thanks, I think I will wait a little longer and see what happens.


If you go featureless you will have to pin and weld the muzzle brake extension on. As far as I know only Tavor makes one.
https://iwi.us/product/tavor-5-56-al...le-brake-4-58/
If you do register you can per my previous post remove the extension and go to 26” OAL.



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  #192  
Old 01-22-2018, 1:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Blade Gunner View Post
If you go featureless you will have to pin and weld the muzzle brake extension on. As far as I know only Tavor makes one.
https://iwi.us/product/tavor-5-56-al...le-brake-4-58/
If you do register you can per my previous post remove the extension and go to 26” OAL.



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Thanks, That is the muzzle break that is currently on my Tavor. It is just not permanently attached.
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  #193  
Old 02-01-2018, 10:35 PM
somefred somefred is offline
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I have a freshly RAW Tavor SAR registered with interchangeable barrels; they pushed back asking for barrel marking, but accepted when I responded with a single photo showing Tavor with .223 barrel attached and the 9mm barrel in frame but not attached to a firearm
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  #194  
Old 02-01-2018, 10:37 PM
somefred somefred is offline
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As for overall length and permanent muzzle devices: https://i.redd.it/8diz1cmrlexz.jpg
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  #195  
Old 02-01-2018, 10:38 PM
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I have a freshly RAW Tavor SAR registered with interchangeable barrels; they pushed back asking for barrel marking, but accepted when I responded with a single photo showing Tavor with .223 barrel attached and the 9mm barrel in frame but not attached to a firearm

That’s a good result. They usually can’t think that far.


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  #196  
Old 02-02-2018, 9:25 AM
mshill mshill is offline
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1. The regs indicate registration for a legal configuration as of 12/31/2016. As of that date a muzzle extension used to reach 30” OAL did not have to be pinned. Also you not only do not have to pin it after registration, you may remove it to 26” OAL. (If you elect not to go featureless and not register, you will have to pin the muzzle extension which may not also be a flash hider)

2. Use 16” as the barrel length. The unpinned muzzle extension is only there to meet OAL. As it is not pinned to the barrel, it is not included in the barrel length.

3. The manufacturer is in Harrisburg PA as stamped on the lower receiver/buttstock. Do not indicate made in Israel. (This will give DOJ brain farts). The only visible “Made in Israel” marking is on the barrel which is also marked 5.56, but use .223 as the caliber per the receiver markings. Do not sent a picture of the barrel markings (more brain farts).


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This is all correct. I received my registration paper in the mail yesterday and I went right home and unscrewed my 4" extension and put on a standard A2 flash hider. It now looks like it should but seems weird with only a few inches of barrel and flash hider sticking out beyond the hand guard.
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  #197  
Old 02-02-2018, 9:31 AM
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This is all correct. I received my registration paper in the mail yesterday and I went right home and unscrewed my 4" extension and put on a standard A2 flash hider. It now looks like it should but seems weird with only a few inches of barrel and flash hider sticking out beyond the hand guard.


I bet that felt good. I thoroughly enjoyed taking the muzzle extension off.


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  #198  
Old 02-03-2018, 1:56 PM
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As for overall length and permanent muzzle devices: https://i.redd.it/8diz1cmrlexz.jpg
Does anyone actually sell these? There was talk of making them but I never saw a follow through.
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  #199  
Old 02-03-2018, 2:24 PM
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Does anyone actually sell these? There was talk of making them but I never saw a follow through.
It's easy enough, if anyone is local in SF or around SF area and has a Tavor or FN I would be willing to sit down and measure it up and then produce a CAD model anyone can get a print from. Unfortunately I have neither a Tavor nor a PS90 so I can't measure it up myself- probably would take about an hour to measure up. Could also meet at a range locally.

The prints would probably be in the $50-$75 range, but I would need to make the model to say for sure. Takes about 2 weeks to print it too. If anyone has a model, like an SW or inventor or even sketchup and make an STL from it, I can also have that printed.
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  #200  
Old 02-03-2018, 2:25 PM
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Does anyone actually sell these? There was talk of making them but I never saw a follow through.
A local gunsmith here in AZ makes those for X95 and PS90. I'm out of the shop today so I don't have his info with me. Shoot me an email if you like and I'll respond on Monday with his contact details: info@ebrworks.com
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