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  #1  
Old 01-18-2012, 7:27 PM
ArtP88 ArtP88 is offline
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Default 2 Questions / 1 post (locked container and pro-LE bumper stickers)

Hi,

I have two questions for those in law enforcement:

1. Typical passenger cars have folding backseats which allow access to the trunk area with the pull of a handle to lay the seat(s) down. Some vehicles also have a lock on that handle. Do officers make differentiation of "locked container" depending on the status of that handle lock mentioned? Further, if a vehicle DOES have the option to lock that handle (mine) and it's left unlocked, would you as an officer consider my trunk area an unlocked portion of the vehicle?

If the vehicle owner doesn't have the option to lock the seats mentioned, as stock from the factory, is he/she given the benefit of a locked container?

2. I see many pro law enforcement bumper stickers ranging from 11-99 to "such and such Sheriff's organization". To me, the average citizen, this looks like nothing more than attempt to garner sympathy from LE in the event of a potential citation. (Disclaimer: not everyone fits the profile I described.) How does LE view these statements?

Don't paint me as gullible (irritation), no bearing / no offense, "would you like to buy these raffle...."??

I know this is a silly question. I just thought I'd let it ride along with a real question.


I'm quite sure the outcome is rarely affected. But do you find it offensive?

Last edited by ArtP88; 01-18-2012 at 7:42 PM..
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  #2  
Old 01-18-2012, 7:45 PM
ak_in_ca ak_in_ca is offline
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I dont know of any cop who would nut up over the lock on the back seat, if the gun is in the trunk its in the trunk. I know I sure as hell wouldn't stress it.

As far as the pro-LE bumper stickers from LE associations. I'll tell you that I have found them at nearly every search warrant ive served or on numerous vehicles i've towed. Any true cop is not going to flaunt the fact they are a cop for everyone to see.
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  #3  
Old 01-18-2012, 7:50 PM
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^^^^^ what he said
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Old 01-18-2012, 7:52 PM
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^^^^^. I concur with both responses above
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  #5  
Old 01-18-2012, 7:53 PM
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Thank you ^^^^^^ gentlemen.
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Old 01-19-2012, 6:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artpreusser View Post
1. Typical passenger cars have folding backseats which allow access to the trunk area with the pull of a handle to lay the seat(s) down. Some vehicles also have a lock on that handle. Do officers make differentiation of "locked container" depending on the status of that handle lock mentioned? Further, if a vehicle DOES have the option to lock that handle (mine) and it's left unlocked, would you as an officer consider my trunk area an unlocked portion of the vehicle?

If the vehicle owner doesn't have the option to lock the seats mentioned, as stock from the factory, is he/she given the benefit of a locked container?

2. I see many pro law enforcement bumper stickers ranging from 11-99 to "such and such Sheriff's organization". To me, the average citizen, this looks like nothing more than attempt to garner sympathy from LE in the event of a potential citation. (Disclaimer: not everyone fits the profile I described.) How does LE view these statements?
1. If I had to sweat you over your folding seat not being locked, you probably gave me a reason to get that technical with you. However, the penal code does not speak to that at all so under the strict reading of the statute, there is no law requiring it.

All the penal code states is that it has to be in a locked container which the trunk satisfies and the glove compartment does not. The penal code does not talk about requiring the folding seatbacks to be locked if it provides access to the trunk. The intent is that you cannot have immediate access to it from inside the passenger compartment. Not sure about case law... if there is any... does anyone here know?

The corollary is if you drive a truck, especially a single cab truck, with an open bed. How do you satisfy that requirement in that situation? In a quad cab with back seats, I would think you should at least put it as far away from you as possible like under the passenger side rear seat, all locked up and maybe lock it up in a box inside another locked box or something just to be safe.

2. Those things are a joke... almost laughable if it weren't so pathetic and prolific. The KJC-625 is everywhere here... some KMA-367 and once in a while, you will even see a few smaller agency designators... but the worst ones are the 11-99 foundation plates along with the various cheap stickers saying you support so and so POA that is always peeling or faded.

I saw one car with no less than 7 support your local POA stickers, some held up by layers of clear tape. I appreciate the sentiment... but c'mon... either you're asking for your car to be keyed or you can't shout your love for LE loud enough. Honestly, if anyone feels that good about LE... I would suggest simply telling a cop you appreciate them the next time you see one anywhere, on the street, in a restaurant, even if you are being stopped by one. Just say a nice word. It means a heck of a lot more than showing a sticker.

P.S. 7 of 10 drivers with the 11-99 plates (that I have seen), drive like total idiots. Speeding, zooming in and out of traffic, etc.
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Old 01-19-2012, 1:29 PM
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Quote:
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P.S. 7 of 10 drivers with the 11-99 plates (that I have seen), drive like total idiots. Speeding, zooming in and out of traffic, etc.
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  #8  
Old 01-23-2012, 1:58 PM
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Dont put on a sticker...whats in the trunk is in the trunk...stay legal.
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Old 01-23-2012, 2:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artpreusser View Post
Hi,


2. I see many pro law enforcement bumper stickers ranging from 11-99 to "such and such Sheriff's organization". To me, the average citizen, this looks like nothing more than attempt to garner sympathy from LE in the event of a potential citation. (Disclaimer: not everyone fits the profile I described.) How does LE view these statements?
The bumper stickers/license plate frames doesn't factor one jot into my decision to pull someone over or not. In my experience, most of the cars with police and even fire stickers are not affiliated with either. To me as a cop they're, like you said, an attempt to garner sympathy and get out of a ticket. especially as I have been told by people they would send in $5 to police/fire organizations just to get the sticker in order to get out of a ticket. For that reason, they don't work with me.

I do find it very amusing how many unlicesed drivers have "We support law enforcement" stickers on their car as they drive around with no license or insurance. There are a lot of those cars sitting in impound yards, incidentally.

And the cars with both fire and police stickers all over them....they're just trying too hard!!
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Old 01-23-2012, 7:51 PM
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There's also this called "within arms reach" rule. It's something you might want to read about. If you are in no position whatsoever (unless you have 10 foot arms) and you can't reach your gun/rifle, then you have nothing to worry about.

As for the stickers, they could've been from the previous owner of the vehicle. If you just bought a new Mercedes, would you put an 11-99 sticker on it (or "Proud parent of an honor roll student at soso elementary school?")
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Old 01-23-2012, 8:01 PM
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Originally Posted by brokntrigr View Post
There's also this called "within arms reach" rule. It's something you might want to read about. If you are in no position whatsoever (unless you have 10 foot arms) and you can't reach your gun/rifle, then you have nothing to worry about.
What is the source of this rule, please?

There is nothing at all like that in the Penal Code.
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  #12  
Old 01-23-2012, 8:07 PM
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What is the source of this rule, please?

There is nothing at all like that in the Penal Code.
Beat me to it.

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Last edited by Ron-Solo; 01-23-2012 at 8:39 PM..
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Old 01-23-2012, 8:39 PM
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I think he may be refering to AZ. vs. Gant, In that case, the Supreme Court held that an officer who makes an arrest for a traffic offense can only search the vehicle incident to that arrest if (1) at the time of the search, the arrestee is unsecured and within arms reach of the passenger compartment, or (2) it is reasonable to believe that evidence related to the crime of arrest is located within the passenger compartment. Does not really apply to your question. An exception to the search warrant requirement is when a lawful arrest has been made; in which case, the officer may legally search the arrestee and the area within arm's reach of the arrestee. again, does not apply. Good luck. Oh, and I find that those that have those stickers are most likely unlicensed or criminals.
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Old 01-23-2012, 8:51 PM
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Agencies I'm familiar with, including my own, advised members against putting dept. call sign plate frames, PD/SO association bumper stickers or any other indicia which would indicate affiliation with or support of LE. Bad guys may target that car out of spite or toss the car to look for guns or cop toys. IIRC, CHP sent out a memo on that years ago.

Mostly we run confid status through DMV so if we get pulled over the officer will have a heads up that the car is registered to an LEO so the stickers aren't needed.

So, those with the stickers, plate frames, baseball hats in the back window, etc. are almost always citizens hoping they will get a break. To me, attitude and demeanor will trump any bumper sticker.

On the trunk access via the hatch, unless it was needed to support another LE action, it is a non-issue.

Last edited by eltee; 01-23-2012 at 8:53 PM..
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Old 01-23-2012, 9:18 PM
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How about cops who feel the need to display all their stuff in the windows?
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Old 01-23-2012, 10:23 PM
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It is actually a CA thing and not from AZ as red2sniper had indicated. This is known as the "Arm's reach" doctrine re Chimel V. California (1965). Incident to an arrest, the police may search defendant and only the area immediately surrounding the defendant for purposes of preventing injury to the officer and destruction of evidence. In this case, you cannot be moved two steps backwards so that you are within arms reach of the trunk. Yes, you are within arm's reach of the center console and glove compartment but not the trunk. So if you carrying a piece in a center console and you don't have the legal right to carry, that is enough to be placed in jewelry and the cops will turn your car inside out. Because...what do bad guys have when they get caught with a gun?...You guessed it, another gun. Probably drugs and all hat other good stuff. But that's another thing.

Subscribe to "Point of View" its free. Its a publication from Alameda County DA's office re case laws and some funny cop stuff. Again it's free.
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Old 01-23-2012, 10:25 PM
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That still would provide for you to have it under the back passenger seat of a truck as long as it is a quad cab style... because you cannot possibly reach under the passenger seat of a full sized truck. What about a single cab truck then? Throw it behind the seat as best you can away from you and hope for the best?
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Old 01-23-2012, 10:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brokntrigr View Post
It is actually a CA thing and not from AZ as red2sniper had indicated. This is known as the "Arm's reach" doctrine re Chimel V. California (1965). Incident to an arrest, the police may search defendant and only the area immediately surrounding the defendant for purposes of preventing injury to the officer and destruction of evidence. In this case, you cannot be moved two steps backwards so that you are within arms reach of the trunk. Yes, you are within arm's reach of the center console and glove compartment but not the trunk. So if you carrying a piece in a center console and you don't have the legal right to carry, that is enough to be placed in jewelry and the cops will turn your car inside out. Because...what do bad guys have when they get caught with a gun?...You guessed it, another gun. Probably drugs and all hat other good stuff. But that's another thing.

Subscribe to "Point of View" its free. Its a publication from Alameda County DA's office re case laws and some funny cop stuff. Again it's free.
Thanks.

Once the officer has decided to arrest, we have new rules.

The original introduction led me to believe it might be a more general condition, which would have conflicted with the absence of PC on where one might legally transport a firearm in a vehicle; there's a clear 'not the glove compartment' and a murkier 'not the utility compartment' when defining a locked container (PC 16850), but nothing about where such a locked container may be placed.

And Point of View is online here: http://le.alcoda.org/publications/point_of_view/ - thank you for the reference!
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There is no value at all complaining or analyzing or reading tea leaves to decide what these bills really mean or actually do; any bill with a chance to pass will be bad for gun owners.

The details only count after the Governor signs the bills.


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Last edited by Librarian; 01-23-2012 at 10:42 PM..
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Old 01-28-2012, 2:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brokntrigr View Post
It is actually a CA thing and not from AZ as red2sniper had indicated. This is known as the "Arm's reach" doctrine re Chimel V. California (1965). Incident to an arrest, the police may search defendant and only the area immediately surrounding the defendant for purposes of preventing injury to the officer and destruction of evidence. In this case, you cannot be moved two steps backwards so that you are within arms reach of the trunk. Yes, you are within arm's reach of the center console and glove compartment but not the trunk. So if you carrying a piece in a center console and you don't have the legal right to carry, that is enough to be placed in jewelry and the cops will turn your car inside out. Because...what do bad guys have when they get caught with a gun?...You guessed it, another gun. Probably drugs and all hat other good stuff. But that's another thing.

Subscribe to "Point of View" its free. Its a publication from Alameda County DA's office re case laws and some funny cop stuff. Again it's free.
Sorry to thread jack but it kinda goes on the same lines, how are hatchbacks viewed as? Is the trunk space in those considered out of reach?
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Old 01-28-2012, 2:23 PM
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I read what I considered to be the spirit of the law and felt a trunk was synonymous with locked container. Within reach of the operator never entered my mind. The ability to gain access to the trunk by folding a unlocked rear seat, to me, put in question the notion of a trunk as a locked container.

To add more complication, I've never seen written whether "in reach" means while the vehicle is being driven or parked. While parked I'm sure I could fold the rear seat and gain access to the trunk, as the vehicle operator.

Regarding the pro LE stickers. I was sort of asking, but didn't want to publicize, if said stickers actually annoy or irritate officers. I am not LE, but if I were and use my imagination, I can find cause for irritation.
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Old 01-28-2012, 3:55 PM
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Hatchbacks are easier to define with trunks than are trucks with an open bed which makes you leave it inside the passenger compartment.
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