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  #1  
Old 04-18-2018, 2:57 PM
jingerale jingerale is offline
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Default Bay Area jigs and tools sharing/renting

There are a bunch of people in the Bay Area that got in on the Sig P320 group buy. There are talks of buying, renting, sharing of the jigs.

Just leaving this here so people can communicate.

Hope this is ok.
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  #2  
Old 04-19-2018, 3:11 PM
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Seems like a good idea. Whenever we get any more information for a meetup or a rental roster I'll check in here.
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  #3  
Old 04-19-2018, 8:32 PM
BayMaverick BayMaverick is offline
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I think the first thing we need to establish is who from the Bay will be the one to receive the jig. That person should be the point person/main contact. I guess we'll have to sort that out in the main group buy thread first before we can splinter off to here.
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  #4  
Old 04-20-2018, 1:27 PM
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Tagged as well.
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  #5  
Old 04-20-2018, 9:46 PM
mibzzer15 mibzzer15 is offline
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There was a P320 group buy?

I purchased a jig from JSD Supply, they are on backorder right now. They said they are about 4 weeks out (waiting for more steel).

Other than the jig, I have all the parts ready to be assembled. Just need to wait a few weeks for the jig.

Is sharing jigs/tools for 80% lowers legal? I've heard talk before that it's not, but then I've heard it go the other way too. If it is legal, I wouldn't mind sharing the jig for a bit.
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  #6  
Old 04-23-2018, 3:23 PM
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Tagged for me and my buddy.
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  #7  
Old 04-26-2018, 3:18 AM
revognah revognah is offline
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Looking forward to the jig being shipped out!
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  #8  
Old 04-26-2018, 10:06 AM
get-a-gun get-a-gun is offline
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When nubrun asked for local volunteers I stepped in.

At this point we need to understand how to arrange the effort in most efficient way. The more people in the area the easier it would be to organize. Let's start with understanding where we are geographically.
  • I will send out private message to everyone on Bay Area list. You respond with your ZIP code or city name (or multiple if you are flexible).
  • I will consolidate this data and share for everyone to review.
  • Based on that we can discuss next steps.
Comments?

Last edited by get-a-gun; 04-26-2018 at 10:10 AM..
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  #9  
Old 04-26-2018, 10:09 AM
ef9boy88 ef9boy88 is offline
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Not to be a wet blanket, or spread fud. I would make sure that this is legal I may be very wrong here, but I thought that whole renting and what not of the tools was no longer legal. AGAIN I could be wrong, but I would make sure you do the research before it becomes an issue.
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  #10  
Old 04-28-2018, 12:01 PM
phonso302 phonso302 is offline
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Is it legal to lend out a hammer or drill? Those could be used to build a rifle or gun.

I was under the impression build parties and cnc rentals where you push a button and mill out a lower was not legal.
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  #11  
Old 04-28-2018, 6:13 PM
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what you do in a closed door room or behind a curtain is nobody's business but yours. if someone is trying to see what you are doing he is invading your privacy if you have a "private-do not enter" sign up and he is in all probability a snitch or undercover and hopefully you do not have any of those around. Last I heard there was no law against who doing some "Art" work. Has anyone considered setting up a mobile plant that can be driven around? And jigs are used for everything so don't get over paranoid yet. Just be careful.

Last edited by big red; 04-28-2018 at 6:18 PM..
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  #12  
Old 05-14-2018, 2:17 PM
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Curious if anyone in the Bay Area has received a jig yet and is willing to sell or rent it out.
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  #13  
Old 05-29-2018, 11:03 AM
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Hey bay area folks, any updates on these?
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  #14  
Old 05-29-2018, 11:06 AM
edgerly779 edgerly779 is offline
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My first 80% ars were from a jig we shared on here. Must have been 30-40 people used it then passed it on. This was years ago. I have a tm jig and all the cutters and my own mill now.
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  #15  
Old 05-30-2018, 8:57 PM
mibzzer15 mibzzer15 is offline
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JSD Supply has updated their website with new shipping dates on the jig. I won't be getting mine until mid next month.
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  #16  
Old 06-11-2018, 3:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mibzzer15 View Post
Is sharing jigs/tools for 80% lowers legal?
I work in an industry that deals with issues of "Intellectual Property" and it seems to me that only Sig Sauer has a legal claim.
Anyone selling fixtures or components based on Sig Sauer's Patents could be confronted with a Legal challenge.
However the sharing of these copied parts and or fixtures based on Sig Sauer’s claims should be clear of any challenge.
In Example. If you counter fit or sell a copy write book, you face a legal challenge.
If you buy or share a copy write book, it is doubtful that you are in violation of laws covering Intellectual Property claims.

Last edited by Aspen3Zero; 06-11-2018 at 3:41 PM..
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  #17  
Old 06-11-2018, 7:48 PM
jeremiah12 jeremiah12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ef9boy88 View Post
Not to be a wet blanket, or spread fud. I would make sure that this is legal I may be very wrong here, but I thought that whole renting and what not of the tools was no longer legal. AGAIN I could be wrong, but I would make sure you do the research before it becomes an issue.
Here is a link to good read about the ATF ruling from a law firm: https://blog.princelaw.com/2015/01/0...-of-80-lowers/

The ATF ruling did not simply outlaw the CNC milling process or the tool rental process. It outlined when the business or entity (even if no money exchanged hands) was required to have an FFL07 and was required to serialize the lower or upper, whichever was considered the firearm.

There was a Calgunner who rented out a CNC machine in has garage. When the ruling came out, he changed to letting people borrow the machine, no charge. They could leave a donation or not. The ATF still came after him. So he then just let people borrow it no charge, and refused any money or other compensation. The ATF still came after him and shut him down because he was loaning out tools through the use of social media. The last post he made was he was being offered a plea deal of 10 years otherwise he they were going to prosecute and push for a minimum of 20 years. He lost everything to fight this, his retirement and his home.

I know after that, the legal advice to stay safe was buy your own and do not share or loan or when finished, sell to the next person and document the sale with a signed bill of sale. Second, do not give any advice or help, the net provides more than enough. If a person cannot do it without help from someone standing over them, then they need to just buy a factory gun because nobody should risk their gun rights to help someone complete a home build. Those were during the days when the ATF was actively searching for build parties and were searching this site to find them.

So, if you want to be 100% sure it is legal to share a jig, speak with a knowledgable attorney. Otherwise you are taking a risk. No matter how you justify the legality, if you are caught, are you willing to bet that on your freedom. The chances of being caught are slim. Posting about this on a public forum has greatly increased the risk if the ATF is still searching for people to nail like they were just 4 years ago.

Is the $100 or so saved from sharing worth the risk of having to defend against any charges brought by the ATF? You have to decide. The risk is very likely low.

Then you have to deal with the CA DOJ in applying for a serial number before starting the build. Then the question of how are you going to build it as a single shot to register it with the state needs to be considered. Then the question of conversion to semiautomatic has not been legally settled. There are a couple of unsettling rulings that back the argument that conversion to semiautomatic can be considered manufacturing an unsafe handgun in CA and prosecuted as a felony. The ghost gun registration could easily be the first step to start those prosecutions in this state.

Do what you will, just go into it fully aware of the risks and decide if they are worth it. I have done that for issues I have considered and made my decisions accordingly. And contrary to what some might think, some of my decisions have been to give the middle finger to this state and their stupid laws. I just do not advertise my choices on social media. I do often make them after consulting with an attorney and reading the laws and court rulings myself.
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  #18  
Old 06-12-2018, 9:58 AM
Aspen3Zero Aspen3Zero is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremiah12 View Post
Here is a link to good read about the ATF ruling from a law firm: https://blog.princelaw.com/2015/01/0...-of-80-lowers/
Thanks for the clarification on this issue.
I hadn't considered the Federal aspect of this and now I see that that was the original concern.
Thanks again.
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  #19  
Old 07-17-2018, 6:18 PM
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I'm not sure if this is a derail, but I'm interested in borrowing an 80% lower jig.

Not to make firearms or anything. I want to take a series of erotic photos of my girlfriend posing naked with it.

On an unrelated note: I'm pretty sure that the ATF ruling is not relevant to the sharing of tools. They refer to a tool under the "dominion or control" of some entity (which wishes to evade GCA reqs), rather than merely "owned by" that entity. What they're trying to do is make it illegal for you to come into my shop to finish your lower, even though I swear I never help people finish the lowers, because they know people probably will help (even if just out of kindness when they see somebody struggling), there's no realistic way to monitor/prevent it, and anyway using a pre-programmed CNC machine is too easy for their tastes.

(As a computer programmer, I was looking forward to learning how to program CNC machines for a build, and didn't even want somebody to program it for me, but I'm the kind of weirdo that doesn't get accounted for. Hard cases make bad law and all that.)

Theoretically, you could still lend out a (possibly pre-programmed) CNC machine under the ruling. The problem is that I'd have to come to your shop, pick up the machine, take it home to my shop, and use it there. That would place it outside of your control. Unfortunately, I don't have a shop, as I live in a tiny SF apartment. Also, I don't have a car. Also, CNC machines are kind of heavy. You know what, forget it.

So I guess instead of using a CNC machine to complete a lower, I'll have to console myself by taking naked pictures of my girlfriend draped over a lower jig, provided I can find someone who can lend me one. Feel free to send me PMs if you have one.
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